I want to make a bet with everyone

I am sure that you have all heard and read that all of the 51 states are suffering financially - that the budgets are being cut, and government employees are being laid off, etc. etc. etc. So
I want to make a bet with everyone that in one year from now, we can check how all of the different states are doing, and that the following states will be doing much better than the rest: AK, HI, IL, MA, MI, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NM, NY, NC, ND, OR, RI, TN, TX, UT, VT, WA, and WI. All of these states are the ones who do not require that someone be legal before issuing a driver's license. So many illegal aliens will be moving to these states soon and will undoubtedly lift their economy. Oregon and Vermont will be the states that will benefit the most since they are the only two states that also do NOT require an SSN from an applicant for a Driver's license.


And, on the other extreme, the following states will suffer the most: AL, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, DC, FL, GA, ID, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, MD, ME, MN, MS, NE, NJ, OH, OK, PA, SC, SD, VA*, WV, and WY. These are the ones that require a lawful presence before issuance of a driver's license.

I personally know four families, all with a lot of money, who have left California and moved to Oregon to put up businesses there. Please print this and put it in your drawer or filing cabinet, and look at it again one year from now, and this will prove, once and for all, if illegal immigration is good or bad for the economy.

the rednex or right wing bush supporters like fallweell, savage, limbaugh who dont realize that immigrants are what made USof a into a superpower.
and as long it was the white man coming here in droves, then no problem, take over the indian land, terrorize them/.

To GUEST:

As PROOF states in his posting, you must truly be an idiot. Your reply does not address the issue that I am raising. Where were you when God gave man brains - on vacation ?

i wonder if all those states you listed as "will be doing better in one year", are now doing better off economically than the ones listed on your "will be worse off" side.

can ya answer that one, for the folks in the audience?

I truly don't know the answer, since I have not investigated that. But it would be safe, I think, to assume that some in the first list are doing better than others in the second list, and some in the first list are doing worse than others in the second list.

so ya just really dont know. oh ok

I have the facts , how many do you want? All states with high numbers of illegal immigration will always be broke, Calif. has 4.5 million in L.A county alone , if your logic is good then how come they are not a financial power house, there budget problem is more then all state combined, their Education budget is 24 billion per year all caused by illegal immigration. Folks these mis understanding happen because you circumvent our laws and thus you do not get educated to how this country works, take government classes to get citizenship, you must learn how it works. The middle class wage earners support this country, we do not tax poverty level wage earners, your tax rate is 4.3% and if you file return you get it all back and then some, simple math will tell you that there is no way you can pay for services used at this rate. Example
If you make $800.00 per month x 12 months=$9.600.00 per year tax at 4.3 %=$412.80 that is all you would pay the f government, if you have 4 kids in school learning English at a cost of $7,000 per year per kid $7000 x 4 = $28,000.00 you paid 412..80 of this, one trip to the hospital is $500.00 to walk in the door, food stamps, Medicare, wipe this out in one time use. Our hospitals are going broke, schools overcrowded and States do not have the taxes vs number of people to cover these mass immigration numbers. Any question I would be glad to answer. I live in NV and that is on your do good lists Wrong we are 1 billion in the hole now will be 10 billion in ten years if we keep going like this, we are one of the fastest growing illegal immigration state now, 300,000, we don't have the 77 million to teach English as a second language, this is projected to triple in the next year, to 231 million, we just had the Federal Government cut funds for illegal aliens in jail that cost 105 million we don't have. We all work hard but when you over run our services and you do not pay enough to increase them as needed ,well it only a matter of time before ship sinks. You work cheap ,you say where is the money then, in the pocket of the person you work cheep for that's who. When you work under the table ,no tax money is paid, its all in the pocket of who you worked for. This is why we have laws to limit numbers we cannot help every one at once.


CALIFORNIA TAX DOLLARS: EASY COME EASY GO

by Mark Andrew Dwyer - 12/22/02
Although the idea of "taxing the rich and giving away to the poor" seemed easier for California Democrats to implement than it was for the governments of Eastern European People's Republics (there has been incomparably higher supply of the rich here than there), the Socialist governments had an actual advantage over the California Democrats. The Eastern European rich were not allowed to vote with their feet (run away, that is), and even when they managed to flee their countries, they had to leave most of their riches for the appeasement of their governments. Unlike the California rich who, once taxed to teeth, just moved out to another state that showed more respect for their above average income generating talents. This included those who profited handsomely form the (mostly illegal) immigrant "cheap labor" subsidized by the State of California in a form of free education, free health care, and low income housing, compliments of the rest of California taxpayers.



To make the odds even more biased against the California Democrats, the Socialist governments did remarkably good job in not allowing millions of the poor to flood the People's Republics, partly because of very modest entitlements that they offered to their poor and partly because of stringent enforcement of the borders. Unlike the California Democrats who actually encouraged not only the domestic less fortunates to move into the "Golden" State, but they also welcomed millions of uneducated though highly fertile poor from Mexico and other Third-World countries to (legally or otherwise) cross the American border. Which had that unpleasant effect that the cost of welfare and indirect benefits that were given away to keep them afloat could sink even such potent money making machine as California economy.

There are estimated 5 million+ illegal immigrants in California. They account for at least 15% of the state's population. Children of these illegal immigrants, technically not immigrants anymore (because they are not foreign born) constitute perhaps the largest single drain of California budget. Here are the figures. According to Laura E. Hill and Hans P. Johnson of the PPIC (Download PDF file), "between 1987 and 1991, total fertility rates [expected number of children per woman over her lifetime] for foreign-born Hispanics [in California] increased from 3.2 to 4.4", which more than doubled 2.1 replacement fertility rate for native Californians. (Per Steve Sailer, this illegal immigrant "baby boom" was triggered by the amnesty of 1986.) As a result, the percentage of illegal immigrants kids in public schools is more than twice their percentage (15%) of California's population, that is roughly 30% (well over 60% in highly populated areas of Southern California), simply because on average they had twice as many kids than natives. Since the K-12 total state enrollment is close to 6 million, that would yield an estimated 1.8 million of illegal aliens' children in California public schools. With average annual cost per student equal to $9,100 ("What the deficit could buy" Orange County Register, Dec 22, 2002), the estimated budget expenditure for educating children of illegal aliens is over $16 billion each year, almost half of current budget deficit. Think of it as a cost of derailing of Proposition 187 by Gov. Davis and his cabinet; despite what some bleeding heart liberal morons say, there is nothing in the U.S. law that would mandate FREE education of illegal alien children.


But that's just a beginning. According to national statistics compiled by the Center for Immigration Studies, an average immigrant collects over his lifetime estimated $1,200 more in welfare and other benefits than he pays in all taxes. (For illegals, who often get paid "under the table" so that they don't pay taxes, and who are poorer and less educated than legal immigrants, the actual figure is - most likely - much higher.) That resulted in a total of $6 billion+ (low estimate) paid in welfare to the illegals under assumption that all the taxes they paid, if any, went back to California budget. Since a bulk of these taxes were used by the Federal Government, the resulting shortfall paid by the State of California was likely to be several times higher and to fall into a range of tens of billions of dollars. Add to that humongous (multi-million dollar) restitutions that were awarded by liberal judges to convicted drug traffickers and gang members after the evidence against them was deemed planted or otherwise inadmissible, and you will get the idea what happened to all the surpluses. They were recklessly wasted as if those who spent them were thinking "Easy come, easy go".

The situation in California today is a direct result of BOTH the fraud that Enron and other energy wholesalers perpetuated on California and other states, and Proposition 187 enacted in California some years ago, forcing illegal immigrants (even before it was enacted) to move to other states.

Here is part of an article I just read:

*****************

Benefits and Costs. A new study by the Tomas Rivera Center found that, over the course of their lifetimes, immigrants contribute more in taxes to California than they cost in government services.

The report found that the average immigrant costs the state of California about $62,600 in educational expenditures. However, when lifetime tax payments are adjusted to reflect what is repaid solely in education taxes, the immigrant will return about $89,437. According to the study, taxes for education plus those for social programs are $24,493 for legal immigrants, and $7,890 for illegal aliens.

Economic Growth. California's economy appears to be rebounding. The unemployment rate dropped to 7.5 percent in April 1996, and about 561,000 net new jobs have been added in California since January 1993--at current rates, California is adding about 300,000 net new jobs per year, or almost 1,000 per day.

California received an average $4853 in federal spending for each of its 31.4 million residents in 1995, less than the $5161 US average. Half of the $152.5 billion in federal payments were Social Security checks.

********************

I need to stress that I myself am against SOME forms of illegal immigration - such as those attempting to enter the U.S. without proper documentation. That should definitely be banned. However, there are those, many of whom I know personally, that came here with all proper documentation with the intention of following the law to the letter. However, unavoidable circumstances have caused these people to become illegal. These are the aliens that I believe should be given a chance to convert their status. It just isn't fair that someone does everything legally and gets into a bad situation because of the unfairness of some laws enacted by inefficient members of Congress. Look at that posting of PROOF under the heading "Illegal Aliens Must Be Deported". That is a classic example of what I am trying to stress.

Oh, OK, I get it. You are either a puppet or a robot, but whoever invented you placed a microchip with very little vocabulary. That is why you keep on repeating yourself on every topic - same words all the time. What is your address, as I would love to send you a dictionary (not to worry, at my expense of course).

to ACELAW and GUEST:

The biggest economic damage done to the United States and its citizens to date has NOT been because of illegal immigration, but was perpetuated upon this country by the US Citizens running Enron, Worldcom, etc. etc. etc. Remember that all of the people running these companies at the time the horrendous criminal fraud was perpetuated are all blue-blooded white American US citizens. These are the people to blame for the economic woes of this country - not illegal immigrants.

To MOM :

Take me along when you visit the redneck. I'd love to show him a thing or two.

MOM
You can't have a Calif energy crises without the victims to make it happen, illegal immigration gave the reason for it to happen, 4.5 million people flooding the state in a very short time over ran the services and generated (or lack of generated power) the opportunity along with deregulation . so we can point a finger at lots of folks here, bottom line is when laws are not obeyed by all people /me/you get screwed. Corruption is only enhanced by illegal immigration as it breaks down our basic value of public virtue, do the right thing without a cop on every corner

California's Simon – Another Victim Of Prosecutorial Abuse?
By Paul Craig Roberts

Gray Davis is the California governor who cost the state billions by mismanaging California's energy contracts. He finances 25% of the state's budget with red ink, and he wants to raise taxes, thereby jeopardizing economic recovery in California.

Normally, a governor with such a terrible record would face a poor prospect of reelection. But Davis, with the media's help, has managed to keep the gubernatorial campaign off his record"”indeed, off any issue relevant to Californians.

Davis's Republican challenger is Bill Simon, Jr., a successful businessman and son of the former U.S. Treasury Secretary. If issues played a part in the campaign, Simon would be a formidable opponent. In the Republican primary, Simon easily defeated the Republican machine politician, a former mayor of Los Angeles. But Democrat dirty tricks, not issues, have steered the campaign for governor.

A Democratic political activist, who doubles as a lawyer in the U.S. Justice Department's tax division, leaked a story to the Wall Street Journal that the IRS was considering reclassifying a legal financial transaction, widely used on advice of accountants and lawyers, as a tax shelter. The leak named Simon as one who had participated in an investment that the IRS might find suspect after the fact.

Davis immediately ran TV political ads accusing Simon of being a rich man who didn't pay taxes.

Simon released his tax returns showing that he paid 30% of his income to the government, but the Enron and WorldCom accounting scandals kept fast dealings in the news and helped Davis keep Simon on the defensive.

The "tax shelter" charge eventually wore out, but before Simon could focus the campaign on issues, on July 31 the Los Angeles jury pool produced another O.J. verdict.

Four or five years ago Simon's investment firm purchased a majority interest in a coin operated telephone company. The former owner retained a minority interest and a place in the management.

Unbeknownst to Simon and his partners, the former owner was a former big time drug smuggler and had served a prison term. This came to light when the man made a deal with the Justice Department to disgorge $50 million in drug profits that he had hidden offshore.

As the man had kept his past from Simon and the other new owners, they decided to dismiss him from the company's management. Shortly afterward, the company failed and all parties lost their investment.

The former drug smuggler sued Simon, claiming fraud, perhaps hoping Simon would agree to a settlement in order to avoid bad publicity. Advised that the case was a shakedown without legal merit, Simon let it go to trial, and a jury influenced by Simon's bad press found for the drug smuggler.

The latest headline is that the jury ruled against Simon's investment firm and awarded the former drug smuggler $78 million.

Lawyers expect the verdict to be overturned, assuming that the judge looks at the facts rather than the politics of the case.

Regardless, the media will make certain that more people hear about the jury verdict than about its being overturned.

Simon is not a rich kid living off inherited wealth and his father's connections. He is a well-respected successful man of business in his own right. Many seek to join his investment ventures. He is generous to charities and to the downtrodden. He cut his teeth working 70 and 80 hour weeks as a federal prosecutor.

It is an amazing thing that a man like Simon is willing to take on the task of rescuing California from the economic and political mess in which the state finds itself. When a good man steps forward and is savagely blackened, when will another good man step forward?

The liberal media is making certain that only party hacks and machine candidates run for office. The public's interest is effectively barred from politics, which makes democracy a hoax. As long as the voting p

MOM
You can't have a Calif energy crises without the victims to make it happen, illegal immigration gave the reason for it to happen, 4.5 million people flooding the state in a very short time over ran the services and generated (or lack of generated power) the opportunity along with deregulation . so we can point a finger at lots of folks here, bottom line is when laws are not obeyed by all people /me/you get screwed. Corruption is only enhanced by illegal immigration as it breaks down our basic value of public virtue, do the right thing without a cop on every corner

California's Simon – Another Victim Of Prosecutorial Abuse?
By Paul Craig Roberts

Gray Davis is the California governor who cost the state billions by mismanaging California's energy contracts. He finances 25% of the state's budget with red ink, and he wants to raise taxes, thereby jeopardizing economic recovery in California.

Normally, a governor with such a terrible record would face a poor prospect of reelection. But Davis, with the media's help, has managed to keep the gubernatorial campaign off his record"”indeed, off any issue relevant to Californians.

Davis's Republican challenger is Bill Simon, Jr., a successful businessman and son of the former U.S. Treasury Secretary. If issues played a part in the campaign, Simon would be a formidable opponent. In the Republican primary, Simon easily defeated the Republican machine politician, a former mayor of Los Angeles. But Democrat dirty tricks, not issues, have steered the campaign for governor.

A Democratic political activist, who doubles as a lawyer in the U.S. Justice Department's tax division, leaked a story to the Wall Street Journal that the IRS was considering reclassifying a legal financial transaction, widely used on advice of accountants and lawyers, as a tax shelter. The leak named Simon as one who had participated in an investment that the IRS might find suspect after the fact.

Davis immediately ran TV political ads accusing Simon of being a rich man who didn't pay taxes.

Simon released his tax returns showing that he paid 30% of his income to the government, but the Enron and WorldCom accounting scandals kept fast dealings in the news and helped Davis keep Simon on the defensive.

The "tax shelter" charge eventually wore out, but before Simon could focus the campaign on issues, on July 31 the Los Angeles jury pool produced another O.J. verdict.

Four or five years ago Simon's investment firm purchased a majority interest in a coin operated telephone company. The former owner retained a minority interest and a place in the management.

Unbeknownst to Simon and his partners, the former owner was a former big time drug smuggler and had served a prison term. This came to light when the man made a deal with the Justice Department to disgorge $50 million in drug profits that he had hidden offshore.

As the man had kept his past from Simon and the other new owners, they decided to dismiss him from the company's management. Shortly afterward, the company failed and all parties lost their investment.

The former drug smuggler sued Simon, claiming fraud, perhaps hoping Simon would agree to a settlement in order to avoid bad publicity. Advised that the case was a shakedown without legal merit, Simon let it go to trial, and a jury influenced by Simon's bad press found for the drug smuggler.

The latest headline is that the jury ruled against Simon's investment firm and awarded the former drug smuggler $78 million.

Lawyers expect the verdict to be overturned, assuming that the judge looks at the facts rather than the politics of the case.

Regardless, the media will make certain that more people hear about the jury verdict than about its being overturned.

Simon is not a rich kid living off inherited wealth and his

cmon, guest, give all of us your address, and we will call come and pay you a visit and then after that we will all leave the USA, OK? Do we have a deal?

yawn, dont these threads ever die!!

a debate that will never end, and dont all of you feel powerless to change anything? i know i certainly do