PLEASE SHARE YOUR OPINION

[E.]

It is unfortunate that no one is willing to answer the question seriously, without any rhetoric that we have heard so many times.
Personally I feel like everyone has great deal of recentment and just looking for "revenge", or some sort of "scapegoats".You know, like their boss abusing them at work, or problems exist in family, finances, next thing you know people are angry but too weak to deal with their problems. At that point they look for an outlet, for any sort of "scapegoat", to inflict the pain and recieve the plasure in doing so.
Psychologically this is understandable but UNHEALTHY reaction to the problems one might have.
Please be aware that I am not here to simply and emotionally defend one side against the other.
I think it would be naive and stupid.
Instead I am trying to put facts on the table and expect a reasonable dialoge.
Those of you who speak of "responsibility" didn't even read my posting, so I can hardly say anything that you would read.
Or else they would not even mention the word "charity".

Nobody advocates CHARITY, instead the question is how EVERYONE can get the best?
And if it is in the interests of majority to get rid of "illegals" then so be it!
But I expect unemotional, reasoned and thoughtful arguments.
Not a set of cliches that we all heard million times and that are factually not very well supported.

[acelaw]

Now, I want any LAW abiding US Citizen to think for a moment: if there was a GREAT depression in US tomorrow, if there were no opportunities whatsoever and if their children were starving while there was a possibility to cross the border illegaly and get a job in Canada:I would like to hear from them how many of them would prefer to stay here and die from hunger rather than go to Canada in search of a better life, even if they were not welcomed in Canada? It is easy to judge when you don't know.
(Whether you like it or not is another question, and if you believe in Darvinistic theory that "weaklings must die" then I have no problem with that. Everyone has a right to hold his own opinion and I have nothing to say as long as one recognizes and admits what his true beliefs are).

E
We already went through this and we DID NOT INVADE ANOTHER COUNTRY, WE STAYED AND MADE THE NESSARY CHANGES TO BUILD WHAT YOU SEE TODAY!!!80 years ago this was a poor depressed country just as you describe ,my Grand parents went through this and my parents as children, they were part of the dust bowl migration out west to look for jobs that weren't there, but they stayed in their own country and made the changes , they put in the hard work to give us ,their heirs a better life, they went though 3 wars , they faced food shortages etc... but we did not steal from our neighbors!!!!!!So your question is unfair and one sided .BEEN THERE, SEEN IT ,DONE THAT and tell me where folks are starving to death in the streets in Mexico? Its not happening, life my be rough but you do not have mass starvation as some countries do

Take the case of Mexico. Vandana Shiva reports that: "According to Victor Suares Carrera of Mexico's National Association of Peasant Maize Producers, it has taken only 14 years of liberalisation and two years of NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Association) to wipe out 9,000 years of food security in Mexico. Three years ago Mexico imported half a million tonnes of rice; it now imports seven million. While the corn economy is being destroyed, Mexico is importing yellow corn from the USA." This switch to a reliance on imports has led to real hardship. One out of every two Mexican peasants does not have enough to eat. [51

One third of the world's children are malnourished. In total 800 million people, one in seven of the world's population, do not get enough to eat. These include nearly 40% of all Africans - also one in nine people in the United States

ONE IN NINE PEOPLE IN THE U.S. DO NOT GET ENOUGH TO EAT !!! You all think we do not have poor too ????Mexico had 9000 years of food security??? What has changed and who's fault is it ?Not the U.S. citizens fault ,but that is who you want to hang the burden on when you illegally cross the border and stick us with the finical burden of your actions.

Here you have Fox wanting to dump his problems on the citizens of this country because he has let YOU DOWN
I've talked about a community of North America, an integrated agreement of Canada, the United States, and Mexico, 20, 30, 40 years from now. That may mean in ten years we can open up that border, WHEN WE HAVE REDUCED THE GAP IN SALARIES AND INCOME." Mexico's President Vicente Fox

With Mexican per-capita income at best 10% of that in the U.S., that 90% gap will be closed at the expense of the salaries and wages of United States citizens. It may be great for Mexico, but this is a very bad vision for the United States of America.

Is it worth sinking the United States to try to shore up the Mexican economic morass? Should we, as Americans, feel guilty about our hard-earned prosperity that's taken generations to achieve and just give it all away to a corrupt and covetous neighbor?

It is not wrong to desire a house, a spouse, a job, or a better life, but it is wrong to desire what belongs to your neighbor and be willing to hurt, steal and destroy to get it. (The tenth commandment: Thou shalt not covet.)
And you do it under the cover of how poor we are !!!Are WE responsible for your failed economic policy's that have been going on for hundreds of years ???? When you look to the north and see prosperity but continue down the same path then blame and except others to shoulder your burden???? When I see something that works, guess what I emulate it RIGHT????
Are we American Citizens responsible to take in all failed 3 world countries at the expanse of our way of life and our children's future ???You lay the guilt trip on us unfairly and then bad mouth us when we stand for our laws and our proud immigration history, we are the most generous in the world but we have limits too, when is enough , enough , when you and your family get here? then slam the door on the rest of the worlds poor???

How can a country that forbids American citizens from openly owning property within its borders be so demanding of its mercenary enterprise within ours?
It's up to you and me to loudly and resolutely say "No! This is wrong for America. It's not what we stand for and it hurts the best part of America - our great middle-class."

MEXICO IS NOT THE POOREST NATION IN THE WORLD and people are NOT starving to death in the streets, you have a very rich class of people who control the wealth there, maybe you should make the changes there instead of stealing what is not yours to take.

.
*** *** ***
A CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll indicates a MAJORITY IN THE U.S. IS OPPOSED to the Bush immigration plan.
By a 2-1 margin, those in the poll said illegal immigrants hurt the economy by driving wages down for many Americans rather than help the economy by providing low-cost labor. In 2000, people were split on that question.
When people were asked whether the United States should make it easier for illegal immigrants to become citizens, 74 percent said no "” up from 67 percent in August 2001.
The poll of 1,003 adults was taken January 9th-11th and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
*** *** ***
Personally I feel like everyone has great deal of recentment and just looking for "revenge", or some sort of "scapegoats

Who is the scapegoats? Try the USC who pays 70 billion plus per year for illegal aliens dumped here by a president(fox) who has failed his people and makes US the scapegoats because of it !!!!

dare to suggest that Laws are MAN MADE and their purpose is to serve HUMAN BEINGS and NOT to OPPRESS them. If the opposite were true men would inevitably be forced to break those laws(look at any lawless third world country for a proof of this statement).
Greatness of US Constitution is in its HUMANITY, REASONABLENESS and HARMONY.
Now, apparently some of the Immigration Laws are not based on the same principles as US Constitution.
For how it would be possible to demand of the man/woman not to marry a partner of their choice simply becasue the law of the land does not allow their immediate re-unification?
How could you demand that man/woman reconsider their dreams to have a child because the law of the land will force that child to live as a half-orphan or have one of the parents as a law-breaking, "illegal" alien?

Do you notice its all about YOU and your Happiness and the H.E.L.L. with ever one else that you affect negatively with your actions???? Where is your personal responsibility for your bad decision ?Its always everyone else's fault,but yours RIGHT, if I break the law and I go to prison and am separated from my children, ITS MY FAULT, OH YOUR HONOR MY CHILDERN SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED FOR MY BAD BEHAVIOR RIGHT???ITS ALL A FREE PASS FOR YOU RIGHT??? SAD YOU HAVE TO HIDE BEHIND YOUR CHILDERN !!!!

look at any lawless third world country for a proof of this statement).

Its lawless because people like you will not follow any laws that do not suit your agenda, cut the B.S>

[moondin]

you know..

we can begin by DEPORTING EVERY *CRIMINAL* ILLEGAL. Who commits crimes, etc.

Actually this is how it is right now. ICE mainly concentrates on illegals when they commit crimes. But they stil gotta go through courts, and it's stilla VERY slow process and expensive to deport them.

-= nav =-

[mohan]

Dear E,
Sensible thread.
Illegal Immigration is a big problem. it wasn't created overnight and cannot be resolved overnight either Or in single step.
It cannot be resolved by extending opportunities in Mexico either. Out immigration law needs to be overhauled. compromise is the one way to look at this problem but tightning the law time to tome become so complex then If US provide the Amnesty to Illegals it is unfair for Legal immigrant and If US deport the Illegals then its against human****** and Low paid jobs, and American farmers , Constructions etc.
In 1986 same situation occured and farmer worker was legalized but because of the Infrastructure of Immigration law we still have the same problem in front of us.
Life of Illegal is hard here. In sceurity prospective view its athreat because we have more then 8 million who is hidden in the country.
President Plan is to get them out from the hiding place by giving 3 years. if it works many of illegals who have any source of adjustment will be adjusted but who still cannot be adjusted atleast they will be in the system and Later can be deported at any time. Many people who are in the line for legal immigration will object and can object due to long waiting and backlog that why the bill was introduced to clear backlog first.
lets see when the camel will sit takes which side.

[Glühbirne]

If immigration laws were actually enforced like they were meant to be, than there wouldn't be 8 million illegal aliens living in this country, the agriculture and food service industries would never have become dependent on illegal labor, and thousands of US citizens like me would never have to find themselves in a position where they are forced to choose between thier spouse and thier homeland. Sure, there would always be a few that would manage to get through, but 8 million!? This is not Mexico's problem, it is not a certain race of people's problem, it is the US government's problem!! The US government has been being lax with immigration and border protection for years and now we are seeing the results. If you want to talk about taking responsibility and accepting consequences, than lets start with the US government. It would be easy to say "It's those dirty Mexicans' fault for not respecting our laws, they need to pay!!" but anybody with a respectable level of intelligence knows that the bulk of the real fault lies in much higher places. If a 5-year-old has poor nutrition, it's the parents' fault for not controlling his eating habits. You can't blame a kid for being a kid. If the US is packed full of illegals, than it's the government's fault for not protecting the border and enforcing its laws. You can't blame a poor man for trying to get a better life. You CAN blame a government for not enforcing its laws. It's just so much fun to blame Mexicans. It makes you feel good about yourself to put another person or group of people down. It's especially fun when you can find others to join you. That makes you feel like your hate is legitimized. If 80% of people want to deport all illegals, than that must mean that it's the thing to do. If 80% of people think that Mexican's cause most of thier problems, than that must mean that they're right. After all, could the majority ever be wrong? Just like the majority of Germans who stood behind Hitler in getting rid of thier own little "foreigner" problem. They had a bad economy and it was obvious that it was the "foreigners'" fault. Why should true, hard-working, law-abiding Germans allow foreigners to live and prosper in THIER country while they were suffering from a bad economy? Hmm. Kind of sounds familiar, doesn't it.
The US government has turned its back and allowed illegal aliens to become embedded in the social, economical, and cultural framework of this nation. Now there's no way that the problem is going to be solved without a VERY SIGNIFICANT amount of damage to the government, the economy, and the people. If all of the illegal aliens get deported, the repercussions will be far-reaching and serious. I like Bush's proposal for many reasons. It is a good compromise, since even I am against blanket amnesty.

[marmaduk]

So by your logic shown in the post above, if a poor man comes to your house and rob you dry, its your fault for not installing a better security system/home defense to prevent him from entering the house????

Give me a break, what kind of stupid logic is that??

I never understand why people continue to shift the blame to the US govt for the poor condition of the illegals either.

[mikeusanc]

Dear E.
I was very impressed to read your points about illegal aliens.
How did you reach such a sensitive position? Do you just have a very tender soul and heart or arrive at your point of view from life experiences?

I completely agree with you that to properly solve the problem of illegal aliens each case needs to be treated individually.

My marriage with my husband Mike is close to being 3 years. We will celebrate our anniversary of February 27 and are very happy together. I am a housewife taking care of our home but I could also work if I were able to obtain legal status. I was a dentist in Russia and at least could work as a dental assistance in the U.S. and pay taxes.

Thank God I am not bored to be at home and try to be as useful and productive for our family as possible. I enjoy doing many things with my hand as I enjoy art, making faux effects on our walls, painting murals, refinishing furniture, landscaping and planting our garden and doing my best to make our life joyful and happy.

But my life remains a dilemma. To leave the US and try to adjust my status from Russia, my home country, or to remain in the US with my husband, whom I love and care for very much. I greatly miss my daughter who is 21 and in college. The last time I saw her she was 17 years old. I know how she needs my presence and support and advice as a mother all the time. My father is 75 years old and three weeks ago after having surgery, had a heart attack. I could not be there for my family during this difficult time. I cannot see my relatives and they suffer very much. They also miss me terribly.

On the other hand I do not want to leave my husband Mike and be separated for eight or more years. He would not be able to find a job in Russia as he does not speak Russian. I also already have lost my dental license as I have not worked for four years. In Russia law a dentist loses their license if not working for three years.

I don't know how we would earn money for daily life in Russia.

I really do not understand. Who will feel better or who will have a benefit from my being unable to see my family or if I would leave my husband and have to be separated for a long time? Who will benefit from our pain?

Everyone has people they are close to in life. Everyone should understand that life is so short and the importance for loved ones to be with each other. Everyone would agree that separation will only bring hardship.

We received many letters of support from our community as we prepare to submit our request for waiver. We have many American friends who are deeply concerned and have understanding for our situation. The area that involves human relationships and feeling obviously needs individual treatment. Each case is individual. If someone suffers or has difficulties on this earth it does not mean you will automatically feel good.

Best regards,

Elena.

[E.]

Elena,
please let me know if you have any particular question regarding this posting.
If your husband is US Citizen and if you crossed border legally then I don't see why would you have any problem adjusting your status under Section 245.
If waiver is requested it will probably be granted.
Also, since you were married for three years you should get your Perm Res without obligation to pass interview 2 years later.

DISCLAIMER: The information contained on this posting is intended to educate members of the public generally and is not intended to provide solutions to individual problems. Readers are cautioned not to attempt to solve individual problems on the basis of information contained herein and are strongly advised to seek competent legal counsel before relying on information on this posting.

[acelaw]

Glühbirne
You just like to entertain yourself with fantises???
The US government has turned its back and allowed illegal aliens to become embedded in the social, economical, and cultural framework of this nation. Now there's no way that the problem is going to be solved without a VERY SIGNIFICANT amount of damage to the government, the economy, and the people. If all of the illegal aliens get deported, the repercussions will be far-reaching and serious. I like Bush's proposal for many reasons. It is a good compromise, since even I am against blanket amnesty.



Isn't continued population growth necessary for our economy?
"We have looked for, and have not found, any convincing economic arguments for continued national population growth. The health of the economy does not depend on it. The vitality of business does not depend on it."
-- President's Commission on Population Growth and the American Future, 1972

Don't immigrants take jobs that others won't?
There are no jobs that Americans would not take if they are given adequate pay. Businesses and large corporations are more than willing to take advantage of immigrants who will work at minimum wage, or less, but this is certainly not a reason to overpopulate the U.S. by allowing unrestricted immigration.

Don't immigrants take jobs that others won't?
There are no jobs that Americans would not take if they are given adequate pay. Businesses and large corporations are more than willing to take advantage of immigrants who will work at minimum wage, or less, but this is certainly not a reason to overpopulate the U.S. by allowing unrestricted immigration.

Why make such a big deal out of a relatively small amount of U.S. population growth?
The U.S. is growing many times faster than any other developed country (about 1% per year, with less than a 70 year doubling period) and about 60% of that is from mass immigration. Our population growth is third after China and India. Even though we reduce consumption and implement more sustainable practices, we will not be able to reach equilibrium with respect to the impact on our environment until U.S. population is stabilized.

Should we not help others less fortunate than ourselves?
Current legal (Government mandated) U.S. immigration is approximately 900,000 per year, however it is a small fraction of over 4.6 billion people world-wide with incomes under 10% of the average American. In fact, mass immigration into the U.S. is less than 1% of Third World population growth. We should certainly strive to help others and to improve living conditions where they are, but high immigration levels do not help the majority of people less fortunate than ourselves.

Shouldn't carrying capacity be viewed in global terms?
Carrying Capacity is the maximum population that can be sustained in an area without diminishing the ability to support the same number in the future. Thus, carrying capacity is relevant both on a planetary, as well as national level. If we in the United States, by importing oil and other resources, expand our numbers beyond our own capacity to support those numbers, we do so at the expense of the carrying capacity of the rest of the world.

Isn't this country large enough to absorb large numbers of immigrants?
The U.S. will add 125 million persons in the next fifty years. California alone will add 17 million by 2025, the equivalent of another southern California. Growth will continue indefinitely thereafter according to the U.S. Census Bureau. The impact of this growth will be severe not only on the US, but on world ecosystems as our carrying capacity is exceeded. A prime example of our responsibility to control our numbers and consumption (neither alone will suffice) is global climate change to which the U.S. is the biggest single contributor.

"However one cuts it, the question is not whether there are limits to this country's ability to absorb immigration; the question is only where those limits lie, and how they should be determined and enforced -- whether by rational decision at this end or by the ultimate achievement of some sort of a balance of misery between this country and the vast pools of poverty elsewhere that now confront it."
-- George Kennan, former U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union, Around the Cragged Hill, 1994


One reason markets are not working in Latin America is a lack of
governance, which feeds corruption and a general disregard for
the rule of the law, says Holden.
ECONOMIC FAILURE IN LATIN AMERICA

Latin America is falling behind economically, according to
economist Paul Holden of the Enterprise Research Institute.

o Between 1980 and 1990 per capital income in Latin American
and Caribbean countries fell by about a third.

o In 1980 per capita income in Latin America averaged just
18.7 percent that of incomes in countries belonging to
the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
(OECD), but now it is only 13 percent.

This is a result of the failure to attract foreign investment and
of barriers to new business:

o High-income OECD countries had foreign direct investment
close to 10 percent of GDP in 2000, compared with an
average of less than 5 percent in Latin America.

o The cost of business registration in Latin America as a
percent of per capital GDP is startling; in Bolivia it is
300 percent while in the United States the cost is
trivial.

o The informal sector in 1998 accounted for nearly 60
percent of total employment in Latin America due to the
inability to enter into long-term contracts.

One reason markets are not working in Latin America is a lack of
governance, which feeds corruption and a general disregard for
the rule of the law, says Holden.

Source: Paul Holden (Enterprise Research Institute), "Did the
Market Economy Fail in Latin America? The Second Generation of
Institutional Reform," Economic Reform Feature Service, Fall
2003, Center for International Private Enterprise, U.S. Chamber
of Commerce.

For text
http://www.cipe.org/pdf/publications/fs/holden2.pdf


The net cost of immigration is $70 billion a year." - George Borjas, Harvard professor. 2002 "Immigration is estimated to cost Californians $1,300 per household annually in additional taxes." -- Costly immigration, Paul Craig Roberts

"Immigration costs U.S. born workers $133 billion a year in job losses." - Economics professor George Borjas

Overall, migrants from around the world send $30 billion to relatives back home. $23 billion last year to Latin America and the Caribbean. $10 billion was sent home to Mexico alone. Filipino workers send $6 billion a year and 10,000 cash transfers are sent to China each month, averaging $2,000 to $3,000 each.

The current wave of mass immigration is not benefiting Americans overall. "All of the available estimates suggest the annual net gain is astoundingly small," writes Professor Borjas, "... less than 0.1 percent of the Gross Domestic Product." Roughly: less than $10 billion in a $7 trillion economy.

Note carefully what Professor Borjas is saying here. Sure, those immigrants who work do raise overall GDP. But the bulk of that increase goes to the immigrants themselves, in the form of wages. The benefit to native-born Americans, after everything is taken into account, is infinitesimally small.

Current mass immigration is not benefiting Americans overall -- but it is transforming their country. For nothing.

Well show us how we would SUFFER with out them, we are suffering with them BIG TIME!!!!!

President Bush's recent $2.3 trillion budget proposal, if approved by the U.S. Congress, would levy a $7,000 a year average tax burden on each American resident, including the elderly and the new-born babies.

This is the per capita cost of having the federal government, without which there would be no United States of America as we know it, and of enjoying government services that benefit all those who reside in this country. In other words, for a family of six (quite a popular model among the five million+ illegal immigrants [illegal aliens] of Mexican ancestry), the Feds need to collect roughly $42,000 a year in federal tax just to break even.

Now, are you telling me that an illegal alien who has to feed his wife and four children is paying 42 grand to the IRS? I don't think so.

If an immigrant family pays less in federal taxes than their fair share ($7,000 a year per a family member) then it means that they receive more in federal services than they pay for, even if they don't collect welfare checks or other forms of federal assistance.

And this imbalance does not even account for other benefits, not being paid for by the federal government, that the illegal immigrants [illegal aliens] are drawing from America's wealth.

They use the existing infrastructure they haven't built. They benefit from living in a functional and well-organized country that took two hundred years of hard work and ingenuity of previous generations of Americans to build and improve.

They profit from strong American economy and low price consumer market that they did not create. On the top of that, they pay no sales tax in America on part of the money they earn here but send back to Mexico (or whatever countries of their origin might be).

And by living in overcrowded low-cost dwellings, they don't pay enough per capita property taxes to offset the cost of local services they and their numerous children claim and receive.

To make things even worse, they usually have no health insurance, which translates onto hundreds of millions of dollars they draw each year from American public health care system.

Here is more bad news.

In State of California, which absorbs the biggest share of mass Mexican illegal immigration, the average tax burden is substantially higher than in the rest of the U.S. Governor's Davis'es budget 2003-04 proposal calls for total spending of over $96.4 billion (or about $2,750 per resident a year), roughly $33.6 billion of which is supposed to come from California personal income tax.

If approved, it would levy about $1,000 a year of state income tax average burden on each resident of California (which is only about one third of $2,750 that the state will spend for the benefit of average resident), or about $6,000 a year per family of six.

This, combined with the above $42,000 federal tax figure, yields $48,000 a year (or $8,000 per family member) that an illegal immigrant family [illegal aliens] of six living in California has to pay in state and federal income taxes alone in order to be not considered a burden for the society.

Well, it takes two people working 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year for $12 an hour (which is quite high a wage for a "cheap" laborer), to make $48,000 a year (2 x 40 x 50 x 12 dollars).

So, even if both parents in a family of six work full time, there is absolutely no way how they could pay their fair share of the tax burden (48 grand a year), and then you and I have to pick up the hefty tab. Think about these facts before repeating the open border lobby mantra that the immigrants [illegal aliens] pay more in taxes than they receive in services. (And remember that the open border lobby "tactfully" keeps quiet about the alarming rate at which the quickly growing population of illegal immigrants [illegal aliens] uses up our limited natural resources and contributes to pollution, deterioration of the environment, green house effect, global warming, etc.)

Here is the conclusion.

We, the majority of American taxpayers are being soaked big time so that the farm and meat packing plant owners can profit handsomely from their "cheap" laborers. And the ****ers want to make us believe that it's for our benefit. So, call your U.S. representatives today. Tell them to seal our Southern border and to put mass illegal immigration to stop.

It's time for the American nation to halt the importation of families who cannot or are not willing to pay their fair share of state and federal income taxes (a minimum of $8,000 per family member per year, that is).
If it were my call then I would also suggest adding an IQ test as a requirement for admission, with a passing score of 98 (a national average). And if the prospective immigrants have a problem with any of these, they always have a choice to stay where they are.
--

[This message was edited by acelaw on January 24, 2004 at 02:40 PM.]

[chuck]

E---going back to your original post. i could not agree with you more that there is a great difference between the situations of legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. thanks for stateing this so well. no one can dispute this and we need to remedy the current plight of 10,000,000 undocumented workers and make them legal and in the sunlight, and give them a path to perminent res and citizenship. at the same time secureing our border. and since it was immigrants that made this country maybe we should make immigration more available to those hard workers---and not just an easy path for the pro baseball players of the world. the pres plan is the first really good idea to come from him, but tom daschel and chuck hagel's plan is much better.thanks for starting this thread.

[acelaw]

Chuck
and since it was immigrants that made this country

How can you explain this when 90% of the USC were born here, When did immigrants make this country and how ???

[4now]

E

Good thing for your "disclaimer" . Obviously you dont realize 245I has been over for quite some time now.. to give this peice of advice to these folk.

Mikeusa

I am assuming from your post that you came here uninspected and undocumented since you say you cannot adjust. Just curious since it appears that you did meet all the criteria of 245I then... Why you didnt take advantage of it. You just let the "gold" slip thru your fingers or what?? If so.. how can you cry about wishing to be able to adjust when u didnt take advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself.

[E.]

4now,
Perhaps you have no idea what INA is. If you had you would know that each Section has a subsection that also has its own subsection and etc.
Now, it is true that 245(i) expired, but did I mention letter "i"?
Spouses of US Citizens are still eligible to obtain waiver and adjust their status under Section 245 (different clause though).
That is a fact: any Imm. Attorney would confirm.
Next time do your homework before jumping on someone!

DISCLAIMER: The information contained on this posting is intended to educate members of the public generally and is not intended to provide solutions to individual problems. Readers are cautioned not to attempt to solve individual problems on the basis of information contained herein and are strongly advised to seek competent legal counsel before relying on information on this posting.

Now, there is a long posting by acelaw.
I don't understand why he took so much time while all this information is available on all Ant-Immigration websites.
The problem with this "statistical" data is that it is aimed at someone who is ignorant of true facts.
Of course if you "fire" all this "statistical" data at average guy out of high school, chances are that he will believe you.
And that is how such opinions are spread.
Truth is far from what acelaw portrays here.
Acelaw, average american family is made of 4 members.
If average tax burden is $8000 per member per year, then multiply this number by four and you have $32000 per household.
Acelaw, do you think I will ever buy this???Average US Household income according to Department of Labor Statistics was $38000 few years ago (for family of two nonsupervisory position workers. Average US hourly pay for all non-supervisory positions were around $8.50/hour).
Now deduct $32.000 ($8000X4=$32000) from $38.000 and you have $6000 per year remaining.
Do you mean that average family lives on $6000 PER YEAR??????
Of course you don't! You simply assume that nobody will bother to investigate all that data.
You think all it takes to prove your point is to make it "look" scientifical.

I do agree that US must limit Immigration to the level that economy can absorb. Did I EVER say America must open its borders to ALL?
No, you didn't even read my posting.(Or, most likely, you have copied and pasted your article that you keep ready to post at anytime, whenever there is a discussion about immigration.)

1.What I said was that as a matter of fact things in Mexico are too rough and that you can't really blame people for trying to survive. (By the way early settlers came to America for the same reasons: economic hardship and political persecution at home!!!).
And since now 4 mln Mexicans are here a comprehensive, objective, thoughtful research must be made (not biased and falsified as one presented in your posting):Such a study must weigh without prejudice all facts and facts only and then let the INFORMED public to make its decision.
If it worth to "ship 'em all out", if it really is in US interests then let's do it.
But let's make it in Civilized, thoughtful, REASONED way as the United States of America should!

And by the way do not forget what Fed's Chairman Alan G. said recently: BABY BOOMERS WILL RETIRE SOON< THERE IS NOT ENOUGH US TAXPAYERS TO PAY FOR THEIR SSI AND RETIREMENT BENEFITS. ACCORDING TO ALAN G. IN ABSENCE OF IMMIGRATION US WILL NOT MEET ITS OBLIGATION TO RETIRING GENERATION AND THAT ALSO MEANS THAT YOU WILL EITHER PAY DOUBLE OF SS TAXES THAT YOU PAY NOW OR THE BABY BOOMERS WILL STARVE TO DEATH.

Please take your time and get the facts before making your case. It is embarrasing to yourself to put out something that could be discredited so easily.

I repeat what I said above: let's have TRUTHFUL discussion!

I genuinely believe that UNLIMITED immigration is BAD for US economy and fabric of society and I never said anything to support the opposite.
But what I said was that something in Mexico must be terribly wrong to push men across the border, risking their lives and then coming to take the sh**-cleaning jobs to send back some money to their family.
And I think it is not TOO difficult to understand WHY they do it.
Question is: how are we going to deal with some 4 mln Mexican population here?
By the way many small businesses HIRE them NOT because they(mexicans, chineese and etc.) are too cheap but because US SMALL business can't afford to pay MORE.

Truth is that Chinese food you take out for lunch WON'T cost $3.00 but will cost $10.00 if you force the owner to hire professional cooks with legal residence here and higher salary demands.
As a result much fewer people will take Chineese lunch out, so most of them will go bankrupt.
Same applies to all other industries.
Same with construction: In absence of cheap Mexican laborer cost of building the house will increase and it is consumer who will have to bear the market price of the end product.
And sales will drop too-as a result of significant growth in market price.
And the same applies to all industries where "illegals" are hired.
And all these costs must be carefully analized and weight against benefits of allowing these people to get temporary working status and ability to continue to work legally, under government permission, and leave, if nesessary, at the end of the term of working visa.

2.Second, I asked what good it makes to throw a father or mother of US Citizen child AND a Spouse of US Perm res. out of country while the child and perm. res. spouse stays here?
Under CURRENT law they must be SEPARATED and wait almost 8 years before they could reunite.
What FAMILY can endure that?
As a matter of fact child and US Perm. Res. wife will stay here and struggle alone.
Single mother will not earn enough to raise her child so taxpayers will pay for services that DAD would pay if he was allowed to stay legally , get a good job and take care of his family.
Also, being very poor she will have to work overtime and will propably move to poor neighborhood where the child will grow exposed to the crime, street-gangs and drugs.
Chances are that this child will grow to become a criminal and one day will wonder the streets to rob somebody.
And you are talking about WHAT???
Costs????Benefits of separating families to American ECONOMY????

DISCLAIMER: The information contained on this posting is intended to educate members of the public generally and is not intended to provide solutions to individual problems. Readers are cautioned not to attempt to solve individual problems on the basis of information contained herein and are strongly advised to seek competent legal counsel before relying on information on this posting.
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[This message was edited by E. on January 25, 2004 at 12:45 AM.]

[This message was edited by E. on January 25, 2004 at 12:55 AM.]

[chuck]

acelaw-yes, 90% usc born here now. but country was not built now. it was built by the immigrants who came over the past 200 years.

[josephine schmo]

Per the original post, you can't blame anyone for wanting a better life.

We need illegals. I don't want my chicken wings to cost $10.00!

As long as they are working and not abusing the System, who cares?