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  • #31
    to "someone":
    You misunderstood me. I never encourage people to break any law. All I am saying is that employers and corporations are always looking for ways to cut costs. There is no patriotism in corporate world. You may not not like it but it happens all the time. For example, recently Hewlett Packard closed down its largest factory in California and moved to another country and many Americans lost their jobs. It is cruel but that is how corporations behave. Another recent example is Tyson Foods, the largest meat producer in the country. They employed hundreds of illegal workers but were found NOT guilty by a federal court. You can scream to your Congressmen but they will NOT do anything because they get a lot of money from corporations.


    • #32
      to Jack: I agree that the business community makes very little noise about illegal workers - largely for economic reasons.
      And certainly, as a result, some illegals get to stay via some sort of amenesty, 245(i), questionable marriage, or ??? while others get deported. There is little consistency in the application of these benefits or penalties.
      However, that does not (in my opinion) justify helping illegals continue to scam the system, or help themselves to other benefits, at the expense of American citizens or legal permanent residents ( or even those who are here or are trying to come here with a bona fide work visa). Yet many contributors to this (and other) sits seem to think that we (American citizens, LPR's) should bend over backwards to help those who violate the rules (and many from the first day!).
      There are those who try to blame INS (DHS) because the laws are allegedly confusing - but the basic ones are fairly simple.
      A) one needs a visa (unless from a waiver country) to ask for permission to enter the US.....seems simple enough
      B) If admitted as a tourist for a certain period of time, one is supposed to leave at the end of that time.....also simple
      C) If admitted as a tourist, one is supposed to be a tourist and not work.....simple again.
      D) if admitted for a length of time which is exceeded by more than 180 days or 365 days, there is a penalty.....simple again.
      E) SSN's are for those who are citizens, LPR's or in a LEGAL status to work (they are not legally sold in 7-11's or on streetcorners or by unscrupulous lawyers or vendors).....simple.

      So....what (and this is not directed directly at you, Jack, but rather to the contributors-at-large) is so #$%& difficult about understanding these basic concepts? What gives anyone the right/privilege to violate these basic rules and laws? Pplease point to the exceptions to these rules, in our laws.....anyone????? Bet you can't.
      Well, let's hear from those folks who disagree....I would love to read how any of the above behaviors can be rationalized......


      • #33
        We have laws that allow for different circumstances as pertains to immigrants that have overstayed or not overstayed.

        We have the capacity to take over a country in less than a month - do you REALLY think that the US government is that worried about MOST illegal immigrants?

        Or do you think that maybe... just maybe... the USA acknowledges that there is some reason to exploit these laborers?


        • #34
          Your reply does not address the issues I raised - where is the justification to help law breakers stay in the US ahead of legitimate immigrants?


          • #35
            to "someone":
            Form your reply, you appear to know a lot about immigration rules. I agree with you that everybody should respect these rules. The question is: What to do with people who broke the rule by entering this country illegally ? Right now the rule in the book essentially say "DEPORT THEM ALL" regardless of any circumstance. My opinion is that, while this rule appears to be tough and strict, it is NOT economically feasible. Just imagine how much money we have to spend in order to find, to prosecute, to jail, and to transport, ALL 8 or 9 million of them back to their native countries. We are talking about bilions of dollars. In the process it will only make lawyers very rich. There must be a better way to solve this problem without damaging our own economy.


            • #36
              It is true that deporting some 8-9 million people would be a major undertaking - and INS/DHS has not even managed to deport more than 300,000 people who have ORDERS to DEPORT!!!!!
              But I do not believe the solution is to grant these 8-9 million people GC's --- the last amnesty did not work nor will another.
              If these illegals become felons (by Congress changing the laws about unlawful presence and making the crime federal instead of civil) might then subject the illegals to deportation when apprehended under any circumstance - not just when they commit additional crimes. Perhaps an additional fee for visas (say $10) collected and used exclusively for the cost of "repatriating" the illegals might reduce some of the actual costs.I read somewhere that the State Dept issued some 10,000,000 visas last year - that would be $100,000,000....that might deport a lot of people!!!
              As far as the economy, well, realistically if companies were forced to pay a bit more for labor, the probably result would be a 1-2% rise in prices on many products or services...big deal...
              Really, can we not pay $1.10 a lb for apples instead of 99c? Or $15 for a shirt instead of $12?
              Maybe mow our own grass?
              Or why should American computer engineers be forced out of the marketplace by foreigners who work for 50% less? (and have no status?)


              • #37
                to "someone":
                While I agree with you about the problem, I respectfully disagree with your suggestions. First, I do not support the criminalization of immigration violation. A criminal offense will require jury trial and this will bring all kind unwanted consequences and inconsistent outcomes. Second, if we can pay 99 cents per pound of apple why should we pay more. We go to war in Iraq so that we can continue to enjoy low oil price, among other reasons. The same principle can be applied here. We need these farm workers. I support what is called "earned" legalization. It is NOT a blanket amnesty. It provides ways for these illegals aliens who can satisfy certain requirements to be citizens of this country. What are the requirements for legalization ? I don't know but I hope it will include being able to speak English, have a certain educational level, free of certain diseases, no criminal record, employed, have been in this country for a certain amount of years, etc, etc. Not a blanket amnesty.


                • #38
                  Jack: Complementing any such 'earned legalization' should be a stricter enforcement policy [from the day the EL starts] to reduce if not eliminate future potential illegals. This should include a severe penalty for entering without inspection (which currently does NOT carry a penalty!!) - say a 3 year bar to readmission for the first offense [not waiverable] - a 10 yr bar for offense #2 [also not waiverable] and the 3rd time - permanently barred. It is cheaper to stop them and stop them cold than collect them up and ship them out.
                  For those who abuse the visa privilege, consider stiffer non-waiverable penalties to send a message - the idea being to (sadly) force people to do what they say (like what is written on their visa application, I suppose) or what they told INS at the border was the purpose of their trip and those who do something different get a swift kick in the behind that stings.
                  Also consider enforceable penalties for employers who hire illegals, including a stringent SSN/status check - and a stiff fine for those who claim ignorance or do not follow the law.
                  Also, there is no reason why we cannot pay 10c more a pound for apples (etc)


                  • #39
                    to "someone":
                    Yes, I fully agree with you that in order for earned legalization to work there should be strict enforcement to prevent NEW illegal entries at our borders.
                    On apples, of course we can afford higher price for them. But if we can get them at lower price, why not ?.
                    I really enjoy our intelligent discussion on immigration on this board. However we have crazy users like "vee" and "guest" who have nothing better to do than posting nonsense here. They do not contribute to the discussion.


                    • #40
                      to Jack: maybe 'Guest' and 'Vee' have been eating too many 99c apples!!!!!
                      Yes, I have enjoyed this discussion - and I think we both know there are no easy, quick, solutions to this problem. I guess my annoyance stems from the illegals who are lookingd desparately for some 'loophole' or scam to stay/work/whatever and they cannot figure out why great numbers of people are not dropping what they are doing to assist them. Even worse are those contributors, American or otherwise, who think it is OK to lie to embassy officials/INS/ whomever to get a visa or stay in the US...none of them has ever responded in a coherent manner as to why their methods should be considered....(oh well)


                      • #41
                        posted April 09, 2003 03:10 PM
                        to "someone":

                        I totally agree with you.

                        The question is:
                        Can anything BE DONE about it?

                        The answer is:

                        And so the question:
                        Why the hell isn't anyone doing anything about it?

                        So let's stop talking and do something about it OR not talk and not do anything at all.

                        Too much more to say, too little time...........


                        • #42
                          to "someone"
                          you seem to have forgotten the only true USC's are the native Indian's and that your ancestors(unless you are an Indian) came to this country by boat, illegally, landed on shore and proceeded to take control of land that did not belong to them. Did they ask the native Indians whether or not they could stay and cultivate their land, no. Instead they killed them when they would not conform to their ways or they sold them guns and amunition to kill each other, which is the same thing as killing them if you ask me. Did your ancestor have a right to come to this country and disrupt the lives of the Indians, did they have the right to do what they did in order to obtain the Indians land, I don't think so. Why is it then that you get to live, work and benefit from what the great USA has to offer but no one else should. Did your forparent/ancestors go through the proper procedures for coming to this country and obtaining land, no they did not. Then how did you come to the decision or conclusion that illegal immigrants should not reap these benefits and luxuries that you have been privilleged to, when you received them throug the same methods as these people, regardless that you yourself did not break these laws but your ancestors did. And where do you get off calling innocent children whom you do not know brats, they have as much right to be here as you do, they are AMERICAN in every sense of the word. Maybe we should consider revoking your rights and privilleges of being here. And by the way illegal immigrants are not the only ones who are driving around without insurance so are legal immigrants and USc.


                          • #43
                            to Visitor" you seem to have forgotten that we are in the 21st century, that mankind and society has gone through a great deal of advancement and evolution and, in case you did not notice, there have been significant advances in technology.
                            As a result, sovereign nations, like the US, create laws to regulate and control their borders as well as activity within those borders. While I am sure that these concepts are probably new to you, the bottom line is the US gets to decide who is a citizen, what rights and privileges are accorded to them, who is a legal permanent resident, who is a visitor and who is an illegal alien. As far as my ancestors, or anyone else's, according to your misguided, uninformed and questionable judgment, there should be no borders anywhere in the world. Well, get up on your soapbox and see if you can sell this idea. I see few takers (only illegals!!!).
                            Like it or not, we, the US citizens, are tired of whining illegals 'demanding' their rights to do whatever they wish in our country. But, since you sound like one of the types who is wringing their hands with concern, do as I suggested to another contributor - if the economic well-being of a bunch of illegals is so important to you, why not give them your job (if you have one), your home, your car, etc. Take a half dozen into your home, feed and clothe them and take care of them. What, you don't have the courage to do this? Hmmmmm.....I wonder why not. Maybe all of your blathering is just that - a bunch of hot air.


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