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THERE IS A MAJOR PUSH UNDERWAY TO MOVE H.R. 2671 FORWARD WITHIN THE NEXT 5-7 WEEKS: Rep. Charlie Nor

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  • #16
    Sks, first of all , you should check your numbers on visa overstayers. According to immigration numbers they account for only about 5% of illegals in CA. There could be more in other states but the percentage of them in this state is pretty low.And anything I say about illegals includes them also. In fact they should be the easiest to round up and deport.I know . I know. Why haven't they done that yet?Well I think because no one was really complaining about it. Being as they went to the trouble to come legally the first time, I imagine they are worried about being caught and are extra carefull to cross all the t's and dot all the i's. They probably wouldn't apply for services, fearing their names would trigger a warning if entered in a database.So they are probably blending in more with mainstream America. And they are not large groups of people huddled together, not speaking the language and sticking out like a sore thumb.AND THERE ARE NOT MILLIONS OF THEM who are turning up everywhere.And the reason I think things will begin to get done now?? For ten years I have watched this problem growing. My interest started as a paper for a college class on the effects of immigration in Ca.That included everything from one family in your neighborhood, to whole communities, such as China Town.So I became intimately involved with census statistics, and started getting newsletters from various pro and anti immigration groups. So I have been following the flow of information and response to it for some time now. And things started to REALLY change in the last two years. Membership in anti-groups SOARED. Not to mention several new groups starting up. And the chatter has become FAR more strident. And what I THINK(just my opinion)has happened is that we've reached critical mass. There are just too **** many of them that came too close together. Being so close to their homeland , they really don't see themselves as leaving somewhere and starting a new life in a new country, and becoming part of it. This is all a very fluid thing for them . They come ,they go back , they come again. They are not investing anything in this country. Only twenty percent ever become citizens. So they are basically here to better THEIR lives.And a lot of them would like to retire back in Mexico. And as people look around at how they won't learn the language, ignore our laws,demand this and that and have a million advocacy groups whining on their behalf, they have begun to see them not as future citizens, but as parasites who are crowding schools, hospitals , prisons ect.And with the budget crisis and everything, people are begining to say to each other, "you know, jose over there has been here 10 years and still doesn't speak English. He's got five kids and is making 6 dollars an hour.I saw him in the emergency room the other night, who is paying for all that? I know with all those kids he isn't paying any taxes. And maybe he's one of thos illegals""Well I think that a resentment has been growing and festering. Because there has been nothing these people can see being done. They know there are quotas on immigration, so people will assimilate. They know that isn't happening. We saw the first stirings with 187. And after Davis killed that people were really feeling defeated. Plus they have their lives to lead. But it has become to much for people to ignore. I personally think that is partly behind the recall. People are venting at Davis.It's payback time.Even democrats voted for 187. And they are voting for the recall. soooooooooooo, I think things are going to change. People CAN be deported. They didn't all come at once and we won't get rid of them all at once. But we can start. We cut off jobs, services, enforce all laws against illegal food cart vendors ect. Impound every unregistered car. In general make them feel so uncomfortable , they won't want to stay. I don't think it's racist or anti immigrant to want to live in a country you recognize as your own.To not have to speak another language to get a job in your own country. And as someone who cares deeply about this country, I want people here with an understanding of OUR history and customs. And that we don't want them sacraficed on the altar of diversity. And bringing in millions of people who are so uneducated even in their own country , guarantees them being stuck in poverty for generations. Statistics have proven that to be true.And they have a huge dropout rate in schools, so that won't be changing.We do not need anymore poverty. What we need are skilled immigrants who are well educated and can hold their own without help. And that is not racist either, it is wanting what is best for the country. If we had all been doing that up till now, we wouldn't be in this mess.

    Comment


    • #17
      Janiss, still dodging my questions from the previous posts?? That's ok, I didn't think you would!!!
      anyway..............

      "Sks, first of all , you should check your numbers on visa overstayers. According to immigration numbers they account for only about 5% of illegals in CA. There could be more in other states but the percentage of them in this state is pretty low."

      Although I live in CA, I am concerned about immigration as a whole, not just CA. So, my numbers are in fact correct. Even acelaw agrees with me that visa overstayers account for half, or almost half of our illegal population (depending on who you believe.)


      "And anything I say about illegals includes them also."

      Alas, you finally make that perfectly clear!!
      I always thought all illegal immigrants weren't from Mexico.............


      "They probably wouldn't apply for services, fearing their names would trigger a warning if entered in a database.So they are probably blending in more with mainstream America. And they are not large groups of people huddled together, not speaking the language and sticking out like a sore thumb."

      This last statement is irrelevant to YOUR point.

      VIOLATORS OF FEDERAL LAW ARE VIOLATORS OF FEDERAL LAW.

      What, are you making a distinction between VIOLATORS OF FEDERAL LAW????

      Are you somehow saying they aren't as bad???


      "AND THERE ARE NOT MILLIONS OF THEM who are turning up everywhere."

      WAIT A MINUTE. If there are @11-15 illegal immigrants in the U.S., and 40-50% are visa overstayers, that means there ARE millions in the U.S. Lets see, half of 12 million is............6 million!!!! So there are millions everywhere in America!!



      "And things started to REALLY change in the last two years. Membership in anti-groups SOARED. Not to mention several new groups starting up. And the chatter has become FAR more strident."

      The last two years?? could that have anything to do with 9/11? And didn't the 9/11 hijackers come to the U.S. on visas, or did they cross the southern border??? The most tragic event in U.S. history is attributed to people who committed fraud against the U.S. and came here "legally." VISA OVERSTAYING and fraud is a big problem...............


      "And what I THINK(just my opinion)has happened is that we've reached critical mass. There are just too **** many of them that came too close together. Being so close to their homeland , they really don't see themselves as leaving somewhere and starting a new life in a new country, and becoming part of it."

      who are you referring to, Chinese? Chinatown. All I hear spoken in that area is a dialect of Chinese.

      Thai, area? Same thing. Languages, food, customs, culture, all are the same as if they were in Thailand.

      Armenians, Russians, Koreans, Oh, I know............Mexicans?

      They don't want to be a part of this country????????????

      So, what are you saying, that none of them are going to apply to get a driver's license??


      "They come ,they go back , they come again. They are not investing anything in this country."

      Who are you referring to again?

      Many Filipino and Chinese students I know are always going back to their home country to visit relatives, not just Hispanics.

      "Only twenty percent ever become citizens."

      How many now have the opportunity to?
      Is this stat from the 1986 amnesty?

      If 245(i) is reinstated, nobody is going to apply to become legal?


      "So they are basically here to better THEIR lives."

      God bless America. Isn't that what everybody wants, to make their lives and their familie's lives better? Isn't that the American Way?

      I know I work and provide to make MY life better, and that of my family.

      "And a lot of them would like to retire back in Mexico."

      Oh yeah, the Mexicans again............

      I was just thinking why a Chinese immigrant would want to retire in Mexico??



      "And as people look around at how they won't learn the language, ignore our laws,demand this and that and have a million advocacy groups whining on their behalf,"

      Many of the advocacy groups help immigrants who are exploited and abused by people like YOU who believe they deserve it. Crimes committed against immigrants is wrong, and many advocacy groups speak on their behalf.

      Isn't slave labor outlawed in the U.S?........


      "And with the budget crisis and everything, people are begining to say to each other, "you know, jose over there has been here 10 years and still doesn't speak English. He's got five kids and is making 6 dollars an hour.I saw him in the emergency room the other night, who is paying for all that?"

      AHA, AT LAST. The truth comes out. Scapegoating immigrants huh? It is very easy to beat up and blame illegal immigrants for society's ills. Why aren't those people saying,"what the hell did Gray Davis do with our surplus? Doesn't he share some blame?"

      During the years of our budget surplus, were these people saying, "Jose, your hard work is why we have a great economy and a budget surplus"? No, of course not. Blame them now, but not then, right?

      Moreover, doesn't that make more sense to allow Jose a chance to buy insurance!!?? Janiss, your example describes a working person, not somebody on welfare.

      "I know with all those kids he isn't paying any taxes. And maybe he's one of thos illegals"

      THAT, JANISS, IS RACIST. I'm not saying you are, but if somebody actually said that it is what we call a stereotype. How can somebody tell if somebody pays taxes by looking at them?

      Just because somebody has kids, they don't pay taxes?????? What?

      MAYBE? MAYBE? MAYBE, he is illegal? What brought them to that conclusion, the fact that he speaks Spanish? His skin color? So they don't know he is illegal. Then what they are doing is speculating and using stereotypes to come to their conclusion.......Doesn't seem like sound reasoning


      "Because there has been nothing these people can see being done."

      Which lies in the hands of our policymakers.


      "We saw the first stirings with 187. And after Davis killed that people were really feeling defeated."

      If they actually thought something that idiotic would get implemented, then they don't seem very bright!!

      "People are venting at Davis."

      Not because of immigration, but because people realize HE is to blame for our budget!!!


      "People CAN be deported."

      But they won't


      "We cut off jobs, services, enforce all laws against illegal food cart vendors ect. Impound every unregistered car."

      That is wishful thinking. Cut jobs? I don't think so. Businesses rely on immigrants. There will never be a cutting of jobs. come on.


      In general make them feel so uncomfortable , they won't want to stay."

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. I'm sorry, but that one gets me every time!!! They are going to go back? Go back to what? Poverty? Take a look at some neighborhoods. They have jobs, own property, cars, etc. They are going to go back........ I don't think so!! A Chinese is going to return to communist china? A Cuban is going to go back to Cuba? A Mexican is going to go back to starving?

      Your idea will not work because, if you cut every single service, kick them out of every school, and deny them anything............They are still going to stay because in the U.S. it is 100 times better than most countries illegal immigrants come from, including Mexico and the Phillipines.


      "I don't think it's racist or anti immigrant to want to live in a country you recognize as your own."

      I recognize this country as MY own, what are you talking about?

      "And as someone who cares deeply about this country, I want people here with an understanding of OUR history and customs. And that we don't want them sacraficed on the altar of diversity."

      Being a teacher of social science, I can't speak for the nation, but I KNOW that MY students have at least an understanding of the major history and traditions of the U.S.

      "And bringing in millions of people who are so uneducated even in their own country , guarantees them being stuck in poverty for generations. Statistics have proven that to be true."

      Then, why would any intelligent thinking person want them out of our schools? Isn't the best way to move up the socioeconomic ladder an education???? Shouldn't we encourage them to go to school and to college?

      "And they have a huge dropout rate in schools, so that won't be changing.We do not need anymore poverty."

      The drop out rates are very discouraging. And it is a complex problem. I personally know MANY teachers who have YOUR attitude Janiss. "They don't belong here, so I am not going to waste my time with them." Very disgusting and very counterproductive. How do we expect them to succeed, if we don't spend time on helping them??? I kindly tell them they are here to stay, which makes them even more angry!!!!!!!!!!!!1


      "What we need are skilled immigrants who are well educated and can hold their own without help."

      Legal immigrants or illegal immigrants? Are you talking about legal immigrants now?


      "And that is not racist either, it is wanting what is best for the country."

      If you want what is best, then lets talk about dealing with those here in a productive way......



      "If we had all been doing that up till now, we wouldn't be in this mess.

      Yea, well, can't go back in history can we??

      We must face a reality that is literally right outside my window.

      Like I said before, the cultures of all immigrants are now ingrained in our society. You say an anger is festering?? Maybe............

      But, if you take a look at was is transpiring, you might change your mind...

      Illegals now given the ability to buy houses (ie: acelaws article), illegals being accepted at universities paying the same as citizens (acelaw again), illegals now given the chance to drive.....................

      Sounds to me they are becoming more a part of our society than ever before..............

      Comment


      • #18
        Sks, I didn't mean not to answer your questions, but There were quite a few and I am not one who is known for brevity, plus I had to download a newer version of Adobe than I had , to get some crime stats which I had heard but not checked out .You are well within bounds to say it isn't right to be concerned with some crime but not others. Guilty as charged.But I also find it vexing when you pass off the fact someone came here illegally , and just want to deal with taking care of the problem thats here now. And rereading a few posts , I think that is one of the fundamental differences we have. Your way of looking at things is far more practial. And I will even say probably more doable.And much as I HATE to admit it, I guess I come at this in a far more emotional way . But you know what , I don't think that's all bad.I LOVE this country. I was born in Boston, Mass.(hardly a conservative bastion). I walked up Bunker Hill, retraced Paul Revere's ride, stood in his shop, stood atop Plymouth Rock. Took field trips to John Adams house in Quincy. Then we moved to Virginia, where I visited Jamestown, Williamsburg and other sites. I toured Thomas Jefferson's home and read drafts of the Declaration of Independence.Maybe that makes me feel differently when I see the country changing so rapidly. Don't forget, We no longer celebrate Washington and Lincoln's birthdays. We have Presidents Day. But we now celebrate Caesar Chavez day. And I will admit that makes my blood boil. Because I don't see where there is ANY comparison in contributions to this Country. And yet because of changing demographics, this is happening.And while we are a nation of immigrants, we are a NATION because of the former.And you cannot change a regions demographics in such a drastic manner without upheval. That is why we limit LEGAL immigration.I have no problem with immigrants. I wake up every day and thank GOD I was born in this country.And this country has a culture. And a BIG part of that culture is fairness. And It is not FAIR that people can break our laws and then be treated the same as people who haven't. And if we are honest about it , one of the big reasons this is the case is because of the massive number of them here.And you may not think FAIRNESS is a big deal, but I think the majority of Americans fell as I do. And like I said , your way is more practical and probably more doable, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. And I just think if we give up what's right for what CAN be done, we will have lost something I'm just not ready to give up.And I checked the census figures on illegals and they say the TOTAL visa overstayers as a percentage of illegals is 15% on the high end.But that is only for the last 5 years, when we have experienced such massive amounts of illegal immigration from Mexico. And they also say 85% or more of illegal immigration in the last 5 years is from Mexico.But you are right about it all being illegal regardless of where they came from. Back to the crime. Like I said , you were right to call me on what I said about crime against illegals.That was wrong. But that's how I feel. According to the crime stats though, if you factor out civil crime, which is what it is if an employer exploits an illegal, most crime against illegals is done by illegals. Which is still wrong. But crime by illegals in general account for 30% of ALL crime in CA.Illegals are 1 in 3 of new prisoners admited to prison in the last 5 years.So they are commiting a lot of crimes against the rest of us.And with this drivers license thing they will now be able to purchase a gun. All they have to do is say they are a citizen on the form they fill out.And for the thing about recognizing the country, where I live is now over half Hispanic. That is NOT the country I grew up in. I was in Wallmart the other day, and I walked around for a half hour and NEVER heard a word of English. Standing in line at the checkout, ALL the magizines were in Spanish. I don't think its racist to want America to be America not Mexico.I kid next door to me couldn't get a job at CARL"S JR. because he didn't speak Spanish, and most of the crew didn't speak English so anyone working there had to be able to speak their language because they didn't speak ours. Do you think that is right??Why can people come from all over the world and live here without us having to learn their language except Mexicans? And that stat I gave you about 20% becoming citizens was from the 86 amnesty. But it is only 15% of Mexicans who come here legally. And about the bettering their lives. There is nothing wrong with that. But I think you should be equally concerned for the betterment of the country as a whole.I think John Kennedys's "Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country"is how we should all feel. And contrary to what their acvocacy groups tell us, According to a biparstian panel that I was watching on C-Span the other day, Mexican immigrants only account for 3% of our GNP. According to this panel, they also are mostly still at the same level of poverty they were 20 years ago.Compare that to Asians who come here without speaking the language. They account for the largest group of college entrants in the country.Yet for some reason all we have are people saying we need more services for Hispanics.I think the country is better off with more immigrants like the Asians. And that is not anti- Hispanic, it is just common sense. I don't think we should lower the number of people we admit legally from Mexico. But I also don't see the need to let them stay here illegally or to legalize the ones already here. And you keep saying we won't deport them. Why not?? 85% of Americans WANT them deported according to the most recent polls. And the law says we can. So why is it you are so sure that we won't??. And here's an interesting thing I ran across while reading up on all this. Do you know how most of the crops are harvested in Mexico?? BY MACHINES!!!

        Comment


        • #19
          janiss, beginning to see the light???
          Well............not quite yet I see!

          "You are well within bounds to say it isn't right to be concerned with some crime but not others. Guilty as charged."



          "But I also find it vexing when you pass off the fact someone came here illegally , and just want to deal with taking care of the problem thats here now."

          Pass off the fact? No, it's called dealing with reality....
          I want to deal with more than those just here, I would also like to see our borders strenghtened, as well as an efficient INS/BCIS.........

          "And rereading a few posts , I think that is one of the fundamental differences we have. Your way of looking at things is far more practial. And I will even say probably more doable.And much as I HATE to admit it, I guess I come at this in a far more emotional way ."

          This is definitely an emotional debate for people on both sides. Until you stop dealing with emotions on this matter, and start thinking rationally, then nothing will ever get solved. I try to take into account our current situation...

          "But you know what , I don't think that's all bad.I LOVE this country. I was born in Boston, Mass.(hardly a conservative bastion)."

          As do I, which is why I want what is best for the U.S., given our resources and current situation.

          "Maybe that makes me feel differently when I see the country changing so rapidly."

          Times are definitely different than back then. Many things have changed, and they will continue to....
          I bet the Native Americans felt differently when they saw their country changing rapidly.......

          "Don't forget, We no longer celebrate Washington and Lincoln's birthdays. We have Presidents Day. But we now celebrate Caesar Chavez day. And I will admit that makes my blood boil. Because I don't see where there is ANY comparison in contributions to this Country."

          Who are we to celebrate a day for somebody who stood for equal rights? Shame on us!!

          "And yet because of changing demographics, this is happening.And while we are a nation of immigrants, we are a NATION because of the former.And you cannot change a regions demographics in such a drastic manner without upheval."

          This country allows a great amount of immigrants each year. Upheaval?? What?

          "That is why we limit LEGAL immigration.I have no problem with immigrants."

          Could have fooled me!!!! If you have no problem with immigrants, then it shouldn't be a problem that we have changing demographics, should it? With all these immigrants, then it should be no surprise our demographics may be different than years ago.

          "I wake up every day and thank GOD I was born in this country.And this country has a culture. And a BIG part of that culture is fairness. And It is not FAIR that people can break our laws and then be treated the same as people who haven't."

          Is that another contradiction?? So, then, you want to be UNFAIR to immigrants?? If our wonderful country is based on the concept of fairness, doesn't that apply to everybody?

          "one of the big reasons this is the case is because of the massive number of them here.And you may not think FAIRNESS is a big deal, but I think the majority of Americans fell as I do."

          When did I state that fairness isn't a big deal?? I feel that it is!! YOU, my friend, were the one advocating to treat immigrants unfairly!!!
          So,again, let me get something straight. "It's fair to treat immigrants unfairly??"


          "And like I said , your way is more practical and probably more doable, but that doesn't make it RIGHT."

          Thank you for ceding that point. I never said it made things right. Only that it is the most plausible thing to do.

          "And I just think if we give up what's right for what CAN be done, we will have lost something I'm just not ready to give up."

          Therein is where the problem lies. That is the crux of yours, acelaw's, and everybody who thinks like you, problem. That is one main reason why nothing ever gets done on this matter. People believe it would be the end of the world. Lost?? Lost what?
          If your losing, who's winning??!! It sure isn't immigrants!!

          "And I checked the census figures on illegals and they say the TOTAL visa overstayers as a percentage of illegals is 15% on the high end."

          Again, I HATE dealing with statistics because it doesn't solve anything. I guess me and my old buddy acelaw disagree with you here!

          For the sake of argument, lets say your number is correct. So what? That 15% is just as deplorable and they are "disgusting," "deviant," "awful" VIOLATERS OF FEDERAL LAW. What difference does that make?

          "And they also say 85% or more of illegal immigration in the last 5 years is from Mexico.But you are right about it all being illegal regardless of where they came from. Back to the crime."

          Thank you for finally realizing that major point. Unfortunately, many other people think illegals are all Hispanic. Some people also like to make a difference between one federal law violator and another.

          "Like I said , you were right to call me on what I said about crime against illegals.That was wrong. But that's how I feel."

          I respect you for admitting that. Unfortunately, MANY in CA and all over the nation feel the way you do and DON'T believe it is wrong. Which is why there is a lot of animosity towards immigrants..

          "According to the crime stats though, if you factor out civil crime, which is what it is if an employer exploits an illegal, most crime against illegals is done by illegals. Which is still wrong."

          How was that stat derived?? That is new to me. (Not that it matters!)

          "But crime by illegals in general account for 30% of ALL crime in CA.Illegals are 1 in 3 of new prisoners admited to prison in the last 5 years.So they are commiting a lot of crimes against the rest of us."

          I like how you seem to be so "concerned" about crime. Maybe you are.......
          Why focus on only illegal immigrant crime? If crime is that big of a deal to you, why don't you find out why 70% of citizens are committing their crimes? Why? Shouldn't we find the reasons for that? Or, do you just want to focus on illegal immigrants crime?

          Having family that deal in corrections, I know that those in jail are VERY often deported once their term is up. Those convicted of many crimes are immediately bussed back to the border, as they should be.

          Just imagine...........with an efficient BCIS and strong border, we would be deporting those convicted of crimes here, and they would NOT be able to come back!! Wouldn't that greatly help our issue?

          I know, I know, wishful thinking again.....


          "And with this drivers license thing they will now be able to purchase a gun. All they have to do is say they are a citizen on the form they fill out."

          First of all, ANYBODY can get a gun on the street. That is silly. So, you're saying, now people will be getting guns just because they have a license to drive??
          Second, aren't there measures in place to check all gun applications for valid information? Don't people who sell guns have a DUTY to screen all applicants? Doesn't that lie in their hands? In that case, convicted felons would be able to carry guns to, if people aren't checking their applications.


          "And for the thing about recognizing the country, where I live is now over half Hispanic."

          And the problem is what?? Are we a little, how should I say it, uneasy around people who are different?

          "That is NOT the country I grew up in."

          It sure the hell is the country I grew up in!!!! What country are you talking about?? Almost every neighborhood I lived in was predominately Hispanic. Living in So. Cal., I don't see living with Hispanics as any different than when I lived with whites or African-americans.

          "I was in Wallmart the other day, and I walked around for a half hour and NEVER heard a word of English. Standing in line at the checkout, ALL the magizines were in Spanish."

          Are you telling me that everybody in Wallmart was an illegal immigrant?? If not, then you have absolutely no reason to gripe if those people were born here or are legal immigrants!! What Wallmart are you referring to?

          So, what, now you are getting upset that people talk to each other in Spanish???? How is that your business?? I bought a soda from a Korean merchant this weekend, and all I heard in his liquor store was Korean!! Did that make me uneasy, No. What do I care? My money was good there!


          The Wallmart by my place has MANY English magazines. You blame the people in the store for what Wallmart puts on its racks?? Sounds more like over exaggeration than anything........but, all Wallmarts are different


          "I don't think its racist to want America to be America not Mexico."

          That statement puts you in a bad position. You definitely SOUND like a prejudice person. Mexico???? America is turning into Mexico??
          New York, doesn't that seem to be more Puerto Rico than Mexico??
          Doesn't Flordia seem more Cuban than Mexican??

          I know, I know, same old blame the Mexican tune.......

          "I kid next door to me couldn't get a job at CARL"S JR. because he didn't speak Spanish, and most of the crew didn't speak English so anyone working there had to be able to speak their language because they didn't speak ours. Do you think that is right??"

          Again, you're coming at this philosophically, rather than realistically. What you are doing is proving my point more and more. Immigration and immigrants are now a PART of our society. It is ingrained in our society now, more than ever before in my estimation.

          "Why can people come from all over the world and live here without us having to learn their language except Mexicans?"

          It is called dealing with reality, again. You stated that most immigrants in CA are Hispanic. Doesn't that mean that their language would be more dominant than other immigrants, thus more people speaking Spanish?? I'm sure that if the majority of immigrants were Korean and we shared a border with Korea, Korean is what we we would be hearing most of among the immigrant groups.

          "But it is only 15% of Mexicans who come here legally."

          AHA, I knew all Mexicans were illegall......

          "And about the bettering their lives. There is nothing wrong with that. But I think you should be equally concerned for the betterment of the country as a whole.I think John Kennedys's "Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country"is how we should all feel."

          That is philosophically correct. And it angers me, and it should anger you, when ALL people don't help our country in many ways. Isn't it even MORE disgusting when CITIZENS neglect their civic duty?? Doesn't that outrage you when people neglect to vote?? Being a social science teacher, I know people have DIED fighting for the right to vote. Yet, lazy people in this country do nothing and take it for granted!! I like how you expect immigrants to live up to standards MILLIONS of Americans don't.........

          "And contrary to what their acvocacy groups tell us, According to a biparstian panel that I was watching on C-Span the other day, Mexican immigrants only account for 3% of our GNP."

          I take that with a grain of salt. You say a panel on T.V., I bet the panel each had their agendas......

          "According to this panel, they also are mostly still at the same level of poverty they were 20 years ago."

          Even more reason to encourage them to succeed in school. Even more reason to NOT want them on the streets. It takes a long time for people to rise out of poveryt, often several generations.

          "Compare that to Asians who come here without speaking the language. They account for the largest group of college entrants in the country."

          It is kind of hard to compare Mexico with a Japan. That is like comparing the U.S. with the Phillipines. Completely different. However, if that Asian person overstays their student visa, I don't care if they are a genius, they are NO BETTER than somebody who crossed our southern border.

          "Yet for some reason all we have are people saying we need more services for Hispanics.I think the country is better off with more immigrants like the Asians. And that is not anti- Hispanic, it is just common sense."

          Common sense?? Asians make better immigrants??? I don't see too many Asians picking produce!!!

          "But I also don't see the need to let them stay here illegally or to legalize the ones already here. And you keep saying we won't deport them. Why not?? 85% of Americans WANT them deported according to the most recent polls. And the law says we can."

          I'm reminded of a song, I can't remember who wrote it now, but it goes like this..."you can't always get what you want." The law says many things. We have plenty of laws on the books already that deal with immigration, most notable IIRAIRA 1996. Why aren't the laws enforced? What's going on? YOU research that and let me know. I asked you why we aren't rounding up illegals, you tell me.

          "So why is it you are so sure that we won't??."

          This immigration issue didn't pop up last year. Prop. 187 was passed in early 1990's, and even before then we had immigration issues. I'm going based on REALITY. The reality of how our politicians are, the reality of the way our INS/BCIS operates, and how immigrants are a part of our society.

          Read what the Oregonian had to say about the INS 3 years ago. (You can find it online, I'm sure not going to cut and past like acelaw!) It was an interesting series. Have things changed??? Perhaps.

          I found it amusing that the 9/11 hijackers got their visas in the mail 6 months after the attacks, didn't it go something like that!!?

          The proof is in the pudding. Why won't we, you ask?? Because we haven't!!! When? YOU tell me? I've asked you, why haven't we?? And if you are so sure we will start roud'en em up, tell me when?

          As days, months, and years move on, immigrants become more ingrained and a part of our society.


          "And here's an interesting thing I ran across while reading up on all this. Do you know how most of the crops are harvested in Mexico?? BY MACHINES!!!"

          Many crops in the U.S. are also harvested by machines. Some, however, can't be harvested by machines because nothing can replace the soft touch of a person. Several years ago an attempt was made to use machines to pick, I believe it was strawberries, but I'm not sure. In any case, the machines ruined the majority of the produce. Thus, hand picked is the best way.

          Comment


          • #20
            Editorial comments in the link contradict this thread. Immigration daily is geared up to post the outcome from all the presidental candidates.


            http://www.ilw.com/lawyers/immigdaily/#Classifieds
            Its a discussion, not a legal advise..

            Comment


            • #21
              mohan, adsolutely. this thread was created by acelaw. who is out of touch with reality, to say the least. I read the editorial on your link, and it is basically what I have been saying this whole time.....

              The major point of the editorial?

              "However, the inevitable can only be delayed, not denied - we believe that a massive legalization program is inevitable."

              there it is. I'm not the only one saying this!!! Right here on ILW.COM's website. Sounds like reality is going to hit some people when they read that editorial..........then again, with acelaw and janiss, maybe not!!

              Comment


              • #22
                This thread is about a bill that is ACTUALLY in congress at this time. The editorial is about 9 Presidential contenders opinion on what should be done." However, the inevitable can only be delayed, not denied - we believe that a massive legalization program is inevitable. Recent events lead us to believe that the political stars may finally be aligning the right way for massive legalization, the Washington Times reports "All eight of the Democratic presidential contenders at [last] Thursday's debate embraced amnesty for illegal aliens now in the United States." As none of them will be elected in 04, I can't see where their opinions matter much.And if you read the above statement carefully, it says it is the WRITERS OPINION that the amnesty is coming.And he is entitled to his opinion. But if you can find me a quote from President Bush saying that, I might take it to mean something. If you look at all the FEDERAL laws that have changed in the last few years(Not Ca. Laws), they have all been tightening things up, not opening the door wider. Just read the judicial rulings on that same page as the editorial. If 80 to 85% of Americans are against amnesty, and for the military being placed on the border, which is how the polls have been reading for some time now, I would say that it is the Presidential contenders who are not dealing in reality, and are seriousley out of touch with the American people.And don't forget , THIS is a pro- illegal immigrant web-site. Do a Lexus-Nexus on "anti- illegal- immigration"and things read a little differently.

                Comment


                • #23
                  well there are other Laws in the session which allow to legalize the alien who are over stayed fall out of status etc. THIS pro- illegal immigrant web-site or anti- illegal- immigration" web sites will have no effect of on the Law. To be on the nutral ground , it can be seen in different angle. If you seen the Last amnesty, border was tighten because US don't want flood of Illegals croosing the border because they heard that Amnesty is open , People will just cross the border and get Legal right away, there are many opportunist who want to take advantages, and Law was applied very strictly before the amnesty occured too.
                  Population of illegals weren't that high as we have now, its called hidden dent to economy, peoples are already here, once the people are in the country, they have to survive, eat and drink, make their living , legal or illegal, these are hidden expenses to us to every tax payer american. so whats the best way to solve this problem? go figure.
                  there are only Two ways . either deport each and everyone OR legalize them.
                  why the political giants are raising points regarding illegals? why california state is in the situation they are in?
                  To solve these problem can any or many agencies can go find one in every 30 and deport them back to his country? is this the solution? who will pay for expenses? did our Law allow them to pick up and deport right away?
                  Answer to these question is No, so can these politicians can find any other way to deport them? OR except to legalize them.
                  is it "the inevitable can only be delayed, not denied - we believe that a massive legalization program is inevitable" the statment is true. just think your self without puting your self into pro or Anti immigrant catogary.
                  Its a discussion, not a legal advise..

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    janiss, still don't want to address my questions huh? If you can't, that is ok....

                    "This thread is about a bill that is ACTUALLY in congress at this time. The editorial is about 9 Presidential contenders opinion on what should be done."

                    The editorial is more than that. It tells the state of our immigration policy and how it needs to be addressed.

                    "As none of them will be elected in 04, I can't see where their opinions matter much.And if you read the above statement carefully, it says it is the WRITERS OPINION that the amnesty is coming.And he is entitled to his opinion."

                    Granted, it was an editorial. As for the presidential race, do you see Bush getting re-elected?

                    "But if you can find me a quote from President Bush saying that, I might take it to mean something."

                    Wasn't Bush the one advocating an amnesty not too long ago? However, 9/11 ruined Bush's plans! He was on the verge of an amnesty and legalizing many already here. However, that was PUSHED BACK. It will not be long before Bush MUST address this again, as the editorial stated. As Bush must realize, this issue is not going to go away......

                    YOU find me a direct quote that BUSH is going to order massive illegal immigrant round ups and the detaining and deportation of visa overstayers!!! Doesn't seem very likely does it.

                    "If you look at all the FEDERAL laws that have changed in the last few years(Not Ca. Laws), they have all been tightening things up, not opening the door wider."

                    Well, if you read acelaw's articles about educating illegal immigrants, you'll see that many universities are skirting the federal laws!!! "Tightening things up"? On the border?

                    I never stated the door was getting wider. It is the entire "door" that needs to be fixed!!

                    "If 80 to 85% of Americans are against amnesty, and for the military being placed on the border, which is how the polls have been reading for some time now, I would say that it is the Presidential contenders who are not dealing in reality, and are seriousley out of touch with the American people."

                    Not necessarily. I am AGAINST a "blanket" amnesty, as well as FOR strengthening our borders!! I guess I'm part of that 80%!! Yet I do not believe the same as you and acelaw. That is because there is fantasy and a reality that must be addressed. Like I said before, everybody knows what SHOULD happen about this that and the other thing, but it won't.....

                    If you polled those same people and asked, "should the U.S. deport all illegal aliens?", I bet you would also get a response in the 90% area. But, is that going to happen? Like you said and then did earlier, we must not look at this issue with emotions.

                    "And don't forget , THIS is a pro- illegal immigrant web-site. Do a Lexus-Nexus on "anti- illegal- immigration"and things read a little differently."

                    Trust me, I've done my research on BOTH sides. Which you should do as well....That is how I've come to my conclusions. Most of what you read on MANY of the anti-illegal immigrant side is utter garbage. It's all just a bunch of people sounding like acelaw!!! Everybody is an expert, and everybody knows what SHOULD happen, and how the U.S. SHOULD do this and SHOULD do that.....

                    That type of thinking gets you nowhere.

                    So, I ask you (Not that you'll respond!)as far as that editorial goes, are you saying that when the 2004 election comes around Bush is going to come out, in a complete reversal of his previous plan, and order massive deportations???? I believe that would be political suicide!!

                    When are the 11-15 million here going to be deported?? How?? Are there going to be military personnel conducting door to door raids??

                    Mohan hit the nail on the head...............it all comes down to what is actually feasible

                    [This message was edited by SKS on September 09, 2003 at 05:28 PM.]

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Who are we to celebrate a day for somebody who stood for equal rights? Shame on us!!
                      Ceasar Chavez was an advocate for (mostly)illegal immigrant farmworkers, who were not citizens and while deserved fair pay and treatment , were not entitled to the same rights as citizens. I do not put that in the same category as "Founding Father".Do you?Is that another contradiction?? So, then, you want to be UNFAIR to immigrants?? If our wonderful country is based on the concept of fairness, doesn't that apply to everybody?I am speaking of "illegal immigrants" Do you think they deserve to be treated equally with the legal immigrants who are "lawfully"in the country?I don't.They have broken the law coming here, so to me they are criminals. While I feel sorry for their life in Mexico, I thought we had agreed, "the law has to be obeyed by everyone"If we were "fair " to the legal immigrants and the citizens, we would deport them , not reward them.That is "Behavior 101", if you reward bad behavior, you will get more bad behavior. And we have.Just as when Lyndon Johnson decieded to pay for young women to have children out of wedlock. within 10 years ,out of wedlock births had tripled.. "It's fair to treat immigrants unfairly??" It is unfair to law abiding legal immigrants, to treat "illegal" immigrants the same. It is worse than unfair, it shows disrespect for them and for our laws.Therein is where the problem lies. 'That is the crux of yours, acelaw's, and everybody who thinks like you, problem. That is one main reason why nothing ever gets done on this matter. People believe it would be the end of the world. Lost?? Lost what?
                      If your losing, who's winning??!! It sure isn't immigrants'We are losing the very thing that this country is supposed to stand for. The rule of Law. So they have won. They have succeeded in making us more like Mexico,where they obey the law when it suits them and wink at it when it doesn't. I don't look at that as a plus.Again, 'I HATE dealing with statistics because it doesn't solve anything. I guess me and my old buddy acelaw disagree with you here!'
                      Well I like them because it gives us a larger picture than what we see in our everyday lives. In fact it is the data they are releasing from the 2000 census that finally proved that the illegals are NOT contributing anything to the country, and are in fact a hugh drain, costing every taxpayer in CA.$1,200.00more every year. Most people only had heard LA RAZA's bald faced lie,about how much they were giving to this country.And I don't recall vast tracts of homes with 4 ft. high grass, before this invasion began. Nor do I recall children running loose or unmade hotel rooms. We also DIDN"T have overcrowded schools with dismal test scores, overcrowded prisons, or emergency rooms, and you could drive over 10 miles an hour on the freeways.I am just not seeing the big plus in having them here.Again , I am talking illegals here.And a lot of the jobs that have been created in Ca. are in the field of Social Services, to take care of them. So we are basically running a welfare program as far as those jobs go. Because the taxpayer is footing the bill for that also.You think this is a smart way to run a country?.We have quotas on immigration from third world countries for that very reason. The cost to the taxpayer is a burden that they have no choice about taking on.Don't you think it might be about time that our "ELECTED Representavies started to represent US?The citizens of this country did not vote for things like in-state tuition. Do you think a single mother living in Arizona ,who 's child wants to go to USC, should have to pay 4 times as much as a kid in the country illegally who just happens to live in CA. ??You think that is fair??The Democrats of CA.do.Why focus on only illegal immigrant crime? If crime is that big of a deal to you, why don't you find out why 70% of citizens are committing their crimes? Why? Shouldn't we find the reasons for that? Or, do you just want to focus on illegal immigrants crime?Being as the subject is illegal immigration, yes. That is 30% less crime we would have if they weren't here. More time for police to take care of the other 70 percent.Makes sense to me.I know that those in jail are VERY often deported once their term is up. Those convicted of many crimes are immediately bussed back to the border, as they should be. Not according to the Justice department. They most often appeal their deportation. I live in Lancaster, Ca.We have a prison here where they keep immigrants who are appealing deportation. According to people that I have talked to there, the only ones that are deported right away are the most violent ones. The rest stay up to a year or more at a cost of $65.00 a day each, to the end of their appeal process.Do you think the taxpayer should be paying this for people in the country illegaly who commited more crime?? I don't.And for the thing about recognizing the country, where I live is now over half Hispanic."

                      And the problem is what?? Are we a little, how should I say it, uneasy around people who are different?

                      When they are not interested in learning the language and becoming a part of this country, yes.If there were an earthquake or something and we needed to communicate with our neighbors, or we just want to get to know our neighbors, it would be nice to be able to talk to them. If I went to Mexico to live, I would expect to have to learn the language.And I was raised with relatives from Italy and other places, and we were told it was VERY RUDE to speak in another language around people who are not foriegn born.And those people would never have dreamed of telling us that we had to learn their language. They wanted to learn English as fast as they could. They wanted to be Americans, And why should we let millions of people who are here illegally with no desire to become citizens, better themselves on the backs of the American taxpayer.??Americans do not mind the cost of a reasonable ammount of LEGAL immigration. But people coming here schould want to become a part of this country, not a burden. If we need immigrant labor in greater numbers than we currently let in, we can have a guest worker program. With the agreement the workers will return to their country, when the job is finished. And the employer should be made to provide housing and insurance or medical care. And if they drive they can get a temp. liscense, if the employer provides insurance. And if there are crimes commited the employer will be responsible for all costs involved in any ligitation.I think employers will find "cheap"labor is not so cheap. It was just that the taxpayer had been carrying the cost.And we need a bill passed stating that at least one parent of a child born here must be in the country legally for the child to be a citizen.The law as it is now was put in effect so that children born to former slaves would have equal standing.I will come back and answer some more of your questions later, but I have to do some things before work

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        mohan
                        Them back to his country? is this the solution? who will pay for expenses? did our Law allow them to pick up and deport right away?
                        Answer to these question is No,


                        To Mohan
                        They are costing U.S. citizens 70 billion per year , we can spend a lot (all) of that money on finding them which is easer then you think and deporting them, that will save us 70 BILLION PER YEAR ,one clue I will give you is , if you have to show legal status to rent/buy house/apartment ETC... going to be hard to live here in the streets. Your attitude that we are here and you can do nothing will be your down fall in the end. I know what is in store for our government if another amnesty is offered, it will not be pretty, 80% of U.S. citizens say NO to illegal aliens, this is OUR country, not our governments. Their has been two attempts to pass amnesty, it was not even close, you know why???? We shut down the switchboards in Washington with phone calls, faxes ETC....So dream on


                        Janiss
                        They do not want the statistics published because of the points you make, it blows there case out of the water. It exposes the lies, any person trying to honestly look at this problem has to ask the question, is this good for the whole of the country or just a few. The answer is self evident. So spin away SKS as that is all you can do, you have every resource s available I do to SHOW the GOOD statistics but there are NONE so you just attack with no FACTS.

                        Here it is first hand SKS


                        http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/feature.html

                        SHADES OF MEXICO. IS THIS WHATS IN STORE FOR CALIFORNIA AS A WHOLE?
                        The American Conservative ^ | 5/19/2003 | Roger D. McGrath


                        South Gate: Mexico Comes to California
                        How an all-American town became a barrio.
                        By Roger D. McGrath

                        While we are engaged overseas in a mission to recreate countries in our own image and likeness, many of our own cities are being transformed into the image and likeness of Mexican villages. Nowhere is this more apparent than California. The city of South Gate, a dozen miles southeast of Los Angeles, is a prime example. Until the 1920s the area that is today South Gate was home to dairies"”many of them operated by Danish immigrant families "”and vegetable and fruit farms. Then subdivision began, and housing tracts and industrial parks started to replace fields and barns. In 1923, with a population of 2,500, the city of South Gate was incorporated, and a volunteer fire department was organized. Firestone Tire and Rubber Company built its factory on a 40-acre former bean field, and a chemical plant and foundry were established. Jobs were plentiful and housing was relatively inexpensive. The local economy boomed.

                        The market crash of '29 slowed development, but new industries continued to be established, including a General Motors plant that employed 4,000 workers assembling Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, and Buicks. The population was mostly blue collar: many of the new arrivals during the 1930s were Dust Bowl migrants who brought with them "hillbilly" music, Protestant fundamentalism, and a rawboned toughness. The coming of World War II initiated a second boom, which continued in the postwar years until the population reached some 55,000 by 1964. The next year South Gate began to change. In August 1965, the Watts riots erupted. Watts was virtually 100 percent black, and South Gate, immediately to the east of Watts, was nearly 100 percent white. Although the rioters were mostly confined to black areas of south-central Los Angeles and did not cross the line into South Gate, younger whites in South Gate started to look elsewhere to buy their first houses. As the white population of South Gate began to decline, the Mexican population, which earlier had established a foothold, began to increase.

                        By the mid-1970s, with illegal immigration unchecked, Mexicans were a substantial minority of South Gate's population. By the 1980s they were the majority. Today,
                        South Gate is 93 percent Hispanic. Of the town's 90,000 Hispanics, 1,100 are from South America, 1,300 from Cuba or Puerto Rico, 6,200 from Central America, and the rest from Mexico. Exactly how many are illegal aliens or children of illegal aliens is difficult to assess, but two-thirds is probably a conservative estimate. Nearly half of South Gate's population was born outside of the United States, and 80 percent of the town's residents speak Spanish at home.

                        South Gate High School is 99 percent Hispanic. Of almost 3,400 students there are only 15 blacks and 17 whites. A quarter of the students speak little or no English, and 85 percent of the students receive free meals at the school. Test scores are abysmal. On a state testing scale of 1 to 10, the high school scores a 2.

                        Many, if not most, of Los Angeles County's cities may soon resemble South Gate. From 1980-1990 the number of Hispanics residing in the county increased by 62 percent while the number of whites decreased by nine percent, and a similar pattern continued through the next decade. The change in demographics has brought a change in politics. As South Gate resident Julia Barraza said, "It's like I never left Mexico."

                        One reason is Albert Robles. A former aide to a Mexican-American state legislator, Robles moved to South Gate when the demographics turned to his favor and was elected to the city council in 1992. At that time the job was part-time, and council members were paid $600 a month. A few years later, while still serving as a councilman, he was elected to the local water board at a compensation of $23,000 a year. In 1997, he won the race for city treasurer and began collecting an annual salary of $69,000. Meanwhile, Robles had seen to it that his friends and business associates were awarded city contracts worth millions. What Robles was getting out of these deals is anybody's guess, but his political opponents were not faring nearly as well. City councilman Henry Gonza*** was shot in the head but survived the wound. Another political rival had his car firebombed. The crimes remain unsolved.

                        In the spring of 2002, just when Robles was on the verge of turning South Gate into his personal fiefdom, he was arrested on felony threat charges. Astonishingly, after his arrest his cronies on the city council appointed him deputy city manager at $110,000 a year and ordered the city to pay his legal bills.

                        At his trial in December, prosecutors argued that Robles threatened to rape state Senator Martha Escutia and kill her husband. Escutia testified that she had hired personal bodyguards and had dared to set foot in South Gate only twice in two years even though she represents the city in the state legislature. A friend of state Assemblyman Marco Firebaugh testified that Robles had threatened to kidnap the assemblyman, throw him in a car trunk, drive him across the border to Tijuana, and "blow his brains out." Robles's attorneys acknowledged that he had said such things but argued it was protected speech and nothing more than bombast typical of South Gate politicians.

                        The trial ended in a hung jury. Robles's legal fees, paid by South Gate, came to a million dollars, about 10 percent of the city's annual budget. Xochilt Ruvalcaba, then the mayor of South Gate and a Robles crony, declared, "Clearly, the jury's message was a strong indication they understood this case was politically motivated and without merit." Coming to a different conclusion was South Gate councilman and Robles critic Hector De La Torre, who said, "It's making us look like some third-world, petty dictatorship where all kinds of political intrigue and craziness is going on all the time."

                        The political intrigue included stripping the city clerk, Carmen Avalos, of all her authority. Known for her honesty and forthrightness, she made the mistake of complaining about corruption and election fraud in South Gate to California Secretary of State Bill Jones. After studying Avalos's allegations, Jones declared South Gate's city elections the most corrupt in the state. Reacting to her co-operation, several dozen supporters of the Robles machine cornered Avalos at City Hall and chanted "Malinche," a reference to the Aztec mistress of the conquistador Hernan Cortes. To those supporters, both Avalos and Malinche had sold out to the white man.

                        As punishment, Avalos's salary was reduced from $76,000 to $7,200. She was prohibited from attending staff meetings, her three-person staff was eliminated, and she was restricted to three minutes speaking time"”the same given to any member of the public"”at city council meetings. When Avalos exceeded her three-minute limitation, mayor Ruvalcaba pulled the plug on her microphone. (Ruvalcaba has carried a grudge against Avalos since she defeated his sister in the election for city clerk in 2001. Two days after the election, Avalos found a teddy bear on her front lawn with its throat slashed and its arms torn off.)

                        All of this finally sparked a movement to recall Treasurer Robles, Mayor Ruvalcaba, the vice mayor, and a councilwoman, who also happens to be Ruvalcaba's cousin. When the city used every device imaginable to block the recall drive, Secretary of State Jones took action. "The voters of South Gate confront some of the most serious allegations of official misconduct and voter intimidation that I have ever seen," said Jones. Enough signatures were eventually gathered for a recall election scheduled for late January 2003.

                        Campaigning could have taken place somewhere in Jalisco or Michoacan. Robles & Co. had the city give everyone a month of free trash collection, hand out baskets filled with groceries, present a plan for free medical care at a new city health clinic, and hold a drawing for a house. The drawing for the house was held at City Hall, gaily dressed with yellow balloons and reverberating with ranchera music.

                        To the credit of South Gate voters, the Robles junta came tumbling down in the recall election, an election the Los Angeles Times admitted had "echoes of Third World-style campaigns." Treasurer Robles, Mayor Ruvalcaba, Vice Mayor Raul Moriel, and Councilwoman Maria Benavides were voted out of office, but they had one week left and one final city council meeting before those elected in the recall replaced them. At the meeting a dispute arose over allowing a resident to speak. The resident noted that he had properly filled out a speaker's card and that it had been appropriately recorded. This left Mayor Ruvalcaba unmoved, and she refused to return the speaker's card. Councilman Gonza*** then tried to pull the card from Ruvalcaba's hand. Ruvalcaba responded with an overhand right that caught Gonza*** on the cheek. She then ran out of council chambers pursued by several police officers as the crowd chanted, "Arrest the mayor!"

                        Earlier in the day, the public learned that an FBI investigation into the corruption at South Gate City Hall had resulted in a federal grand jury issuing a subpoena for city documents germane to federal loans and grants awarded by the city to former business partners of Robles. It would be a few weeks before the public learned of the spending spree that the outgoing city officials had engaged in during their lame-duck week in office. Mayor Ruvalcaba and Treasurer Robles signed checks amounting to more than $2 million, mostly to pay for attorneys for themselves. On the day before the newly elected city officials came into office, Assistant Finance Director Yimu Chen said he was forced to use the city's reserve fund as Robles, City Manager Jesus Marez, and several lawyers stood over him. "I was basically under duress to sign the checks," noted Chen. Marez kept administrators at City Hall until 9:30 p.m., spending more than $1 million. The spending spree nearly exhausted what was left of the city's reserves and has caused the state to initiate an audit. "It was a feeding frenzy of attorneys is what it was," claimed South Gate's new mayor, Hector De La Torre.

                        One of those lawyers was South Gate City Attorney Salvador Alva who was paid $269,000 during the final week. Another was Cristeta Paguirigan, a disbarred attorney with three convictions for embezzlement and one for forgery who was paid $200 an hour for advice on litigation. Hundreds of thousands of dollars went to criminal defense lawyers representing Robles and his allies.

                        South Gate, nearly bankrupt, has been forced to layoff 200 employees, and more layoffs are expected. Ironically, those employees who were part of the Robles machine need not fear being fired"”they all have contracts with guaranteed severance packages should they be terminated. Most of them have been with the city only a year and were hired after Robles got the city council to eliminate South Gate's traditional standards for employment, including a college degree and municipal experience. The city manager and department directors have severance packages that include 18 months of salary. Should they be fired, the cost to the city would be upwards of $3 million.
                        Albert Robles is one of those protected. While he was voted out of office as city treasurer, he did not lose his additional job as deputy city manager. He has been placed on administrative leave but, as required by contracts, continues to receive some $11,000 a month. He also continues to use city cellular phones and to drive city vehicles. If he is fired, the city will have to pay him some $200,000. Although recently convicted for violating a California gun law, Robles is by no means down for the count. He will be back, if not in South Gate then in another California town that is on its way to becoming a Mexican village.
                        ____________________________________________________
                        Roger D. McGrath is an historian in California and the author of Gunfighters, Highwaymen and Vigilantes, among other books.

                        May 19, 2003 issue Copyright © 2003 The American Conservative

                        [This message was edited by acelaw on September 10, 2003 at 09:55 AM.]

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Janiss
                          you awy off the topic by saying;
                          I am speaking of "illegal immigrants" Do you think they deserve to be treated equally with the legal immigrants who are "lawfully"in the country?
                          I don't think the question what they deserve or what not . the question is what Amrica do to solve this problem.

                          They have broken the law coming here, so to me they are criminals. While I feel sorry for their life in Mexico, I thought we had agreed, "the law has to be obeyed by everyone"If we were "fair " to the legal immigrants and the citizens, we would deport them , not reward them.
                          Ok we justifythat illegal aliens commit crime but do our law is written this way to deport them once they are here? I don't think so. Everyone has right for appeal and so forth , it will take years to get deported.( unless you change the Law, but again if the law is changed now ,they will be grandfathered and situation will be same)

                          if you reward bad behavior, you will get more bad behavior. And we have.

                          Yes its true but don't you think the congress should have made a law when the first amnesty occured to aviod this problem? the base line is you correct the problem and prevent for happening again, but ther was correction but no prevention, so result is 7-10 million illegals again.
                          In fact it is the data they are releasing from the 2000 census that finally proved that the illegals are NOT contributing anything to the country, and are in fact a hugh drain, costing every taxpayer in CA.$1,200.00more every year.

                          As I said its dent to the economy.someone has to fix it. we are looking here what they are ,its hidden cost to economy , we are looking for solution to solve this illegal immigration problem and its not only mexicans, its from all over the world.
                          we always sing the same song , like a broken record, " they cost us , they dont pay taxes, they dont contribute to economy , but no really find the solution to prevent happning again.
                          ITs OUR LAW, notihng else.
                          focus on illegal immigrants crime?Being as the subject is illegal immigration, yes. That is 30% less crime we would have if they weren't here. More time for police to take care of the other 70 percent.

                          Again you are talking the drawback of illegal aliens,you know they are illegal, there are no record in the public system. crime will be less if they deported and also will be less if they are legal here too. this point is irrelevent under the exhibit ( census report). once they were either deported or legalized crime will be controlled. Law allowes US to deport criminal alien Even he GC holder.
                          Do u know that Citizen are also committing crime too by offering the job and paying under the table.

                          Cheap labor?
                          I dont know why we have this policy to get cheap labour from maxico. I guess we cannot do our own job, we want to be boss, so we allow thousands maxican every day cross the border to work legally. we do that we have to pay the price.
                          once upon a time my mother in law ger fired from her job. she applied another jobs , she was getting jobs but was not paying enough. I asked here to get the job for time being unless she gets the good job there is nothing harmless to get a job paying $11 then to stay unemployed. You what she sai?> I am american, I dont want to work less then 16 Dollars an hour.
                          with this kind of attitude,dont you think the problem was created to our own.

                          To acelaw,
                          The 70 Billion cost are not justified. if the 7-10 million illegal cost you 70 billion by staying here, think about how much it will cost to deport them. Do u have any idea how much it costs to deport one Illegal alien?
                          the estimated cost of deportation is between 18K to 35K per alien. You cannot just catch then and deport them, Deportation proceedings NTA/OSC, deoprtation order from court, detention, appeals, motions to different courts and finally exhaustation and then deportation expense are are counted. now go figure the costonly , lets talk about time now . to deport on alien if every goes smooth and in time the period is 2-3 years min and Max has no limit.
                          think about the others who are freshely crossed the borders within these period. your 70 billion will become 140 billion, if this problem is not solved.
                          Also it will not be any political agenda if solved.
                          The funny thing is can no one justify that 70 billion cost? There are no money( 70 billion) is allocated in the budget for illegal aliens.
                          in one side Citizens says that Illegals are costing us fortune but another side they are the one whooffer them job for their own benifit, even allow them to come to this country legally and over stay and become illegal.( its funny)
                          your solution to see the ID for rent etc, won't work , it will create more problems, like fake Id bussiness,and the owner of the house will charge more money to rent illegals, and others will have to compete to get rental properties.
                          FAct is;
                          thats the reasons legalization program is inevitable.
                          Its a discussion, not a legal advise..

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            acelaw, I must hand it to you. You definitely are the master of the cut and paste!!
                            I know this was addressed to mohan, but when I something so silly, I admit, I can't resist..........


                            "They are costing U.S. citizens 70 billion per year , we can spend a lot (all) of that money on finding them which is easer then you think and deporting them, that will save us 70 BILLION PER YEAR ,"

                            AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YES.
                            And around we go.

                            YOU'RE RIGHT ACELAW, WE CAN, CAN, CAN, CAN, AND SHOULD SHOULD SHOULD DO THAT. But we will NOT!! Why haven't we?? And when are we??? Call me silly, but I don't see Bush ever stating, "Tommorrow I am going to set aside $30 billion dollars to track down every single illegal immigrant." You, my friend, need to dream on!!!!

                            "one clue I will give you is , if you have to show legal status to rent/buy house/apartment ETC... going to be hard to live here in the streets."

                            What about those that own property already?? Didn't you post an article awhile back about how illegals might be able to buy houses??

                            Show legal status to who?? If a person is renting a house, if a person is renting a room, they don't have to check for anything. I've rented from many people in the past and not once was my immigration status questioned. All that mattered was cash, money talks!! Are you telling me private homeowners, leasing agents, everybody is going to start checking to see if people are going to check for immigration status!! When? What about the immigrant neighorhoods?? Those that already have houses, condos, townehomes, mobile homes, etc.

                            Again, it is not going to be hard to live here if you already have a place to live!!!!!!!
                            As time goes on, they become more a part of our society...............

                            Like I said before, acelaw, there is nothing wrong with your wishful thinking....

                            The issue must be addressed, I don't realistically see any politician ordering massive deportations and round ups, you need to dream on acelaw.

                            More acelaw


                            "They do not want the statistics published because of the points you make, it blows there case out of the water."

                            How??? How does statistics matter if I'm talking about a solution? If YOU and JANISS are so against illegal immigration, what difference to does it make that 80% this, 30% that, 20% this, and 15% that? I know you like to sound smart with your stats acelaw, the same with your articles, but once you make a point with them, they become useless. After you make a point using stats (some we even agree on!!), then comes the part about what do about them. You can only rely on stats for so long............

                            Add to that the fact that anti and pro immigrant groups use their own "stats" to make a point.

                            I've read stats on global warming, but what does that prove?? some say one thing, others say another.............


                            "It exposes the lies, any person trying to honestly look at this problem has to ask the question, is this good for the whole of the country or just a few. The answer is self evident."

                            What lies??? How did I lie?? Whether it is good or not is not at issue right now. Lets say it is good for the country. What do we do about it? Lets say it's bad for the country. What do we do about it? Stats can only be used for so long............After analyzing them, we must decide WHAT WE NEED TO DO ABOUT IT, REALISTICALLY. HOW? WHEN? Stats have nothing to do with that....

                            "So spin away SKS as that is all you can do, you have every resource s available I do to SHOW the GOOD statistics but there are NONE so you just attack with no FACTS."

                            Again, you're missing the point acelaw. Your facts and stats are very cute, but don't solve anything. I've read your stats and "facts" but that doesn't SOLVE anything. Not to mention I've agreed with some! The point I'm trying to make is WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT? I don't want to argue stats. Lets say every single stat you ever quoted is correct. Ok, I'm still left with the question, WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THOSE HERE? WHAT ABOUT VISA OVERSTAYERS, THE BORDER, A REALISTIC SOLUTION? You have posted enough of your "facts," lets find a solution.........

                            OH MY GOSH, NOT ROGER MCGRATH. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. He was my history professor when I went back and took a class at CSUN for the hell of it. That guy was pretty good, and his Gunfighters book was alright..........He was very entertaining, I must say, and could recite old cowboys songs word for word, yet, I know you'll find it hard to believe, the class did have some "lively" discussions to say the least............

                            "Nowhere is this more apparent than California. The city of South Gate, a dozen miles southeast of Los Angeles, is a prime example. Until the 1920s the area that is today South Gate was home to dairies"”many of them operated by Danish immigrant families "”and vegetable and fruit farms."

                            Weren't people there before the Danish??

                            "As the white population of South Gate began to decline, the Mexican population, which earlier had established a foothold, began to increase.
                            By the mid-1970s, with illegal immigration unchecked, Mexicans were a substantial minority of South Gate's population. By the 1980s they were the majority. Today, South Gate is 93 percent Hispanic. Of the town's 90,000 Hispanics, 1,100 are from South America, 1,300 from Cuba or Puerto Rico, 6,200 from Central America, and the rest from Mexico."

                            Thank you for posting this article acelaw, as it proves yet again my point that immigrants have become more and more a part of our society, and in this case it is Hispanic immigrants!!! I fail to see your point in posting this article??? What was your point???

                            "Exactly how many are illegal aliens or children of illegal aliens is difficult to assess, but two-thirds is probably a conservative estimate."

                            Again, how many were born here and are U.S. CITIZENS? Come on DR. McGrath, are you slipping?

                            "Nearly half of South Gate's population was born outside of the United States, and 80 percent of the town's residents speak Spanish at home."

                            How is that your business DR. McGrath??? Who cares what people speak in their own homes?? Do you advocate creating a language police that monitors what people speak in their own home??

                            "South Gate High School is 99 percent Hispanic. Of almost 3,400 students there are only 15 blacks and 17 whites. A quarter of the students speak little or no English, and 85 percent of the students receive free meals at the school."

                            Come on, Dr. McGrath you failed me here. What percentage of the students were born here?? What percentage of the ELLs are immigrants, and which are citizens?? When did the immigrants arrive? Yesterday, last year?? All important questions in dealing with assessing a student on their language proficiency, where they should be placed, and with whom. That is a major point because if they are citizens, then you can't blame them for being illegal immigrants!! Free meals, are they for U.S. citizens, if they are, then what is the problem?? Again, acelaw, didn't you post an article back when that stated the Supreme Court ruled illegal immigrants were allowed an education?? If so, then where is the problem in educating them?????

                            "Test scores are abysmal. On a state testing scale of 1 to 10, the high school scores a 2."

                            For many reasons. ELLs are only given a certain amount of time before they are tested. Seems silly to test somebody who is unprepared, doesn't it? Not knowing much about South Gate, many factors go in to why tests are low. As I've stated before........

                            "Many, if not most, of Los Angeles County's cities may soon resemble South Gate. From 1980-1990 the number of Hispanics residing in the county increased by 62 percent while the number of whites decreased by nine percent, and a similar pattern continued through the next decade."

                            How much is that growth attributed to immigration as opposed to U.S. CITIZENS BEING born?

                            "The change in demographics has brought a change in politics...... Robles moved to South Gate when the demographics turned to his favor and was elected to the city council in 1992."

                            Dr. McGrath, are these politicians Americans or illegal immigrants??? You really let me down again!!

                            Why did Robles not have chance to be elected prior to 1992?? Nobody would have voted for a Hispanic?? What does McGrath mean when he says "demographics turned in his favor"? If Robles is an American, weren't the "demographics" always in his favor, if he is a U.S. Citizen?

                            "He will be back, if not in South Gate then in another California town that is on its way to becoming a Mexican village."

                            Mexican village?? Corruption is only found in Mexican Villages??!! What do we call it when corruption occurs in a predominately white town?? A town that is on its way to becoming a German city???? Talk about corruption, what do we call the Enron scandal, another business on its way to becoming a European business?? Dr. Mcgrath is silly for stating that!!

                            That was a great article about corruption in South Gate! Maybe I didn't catch it, but were the politicians in the article illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, or were the CITIZENS??? Acelaw, please clarify. If politicians were in fact legal and citizens, then what does their bad behavior have to do with illegal immigration? If they were born here, doesn't that mean U.S. citizens are to blame for the South Gate political fiasco in the article?????? That was a great, albeit, brief "history" of South Gate.

                            Dr. McGrath usually does good research, but I feel this may have been just a quick article on South Gate.......Then again maybe somebody twisted his arm to do it. In any case, it wasn't his best work!!!

                            [This message was edited by SKS on September 10, 2003 at 01:24 PM.]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Janiss, I responded to acelaw first because I didn't see your post.

                              In any case to make your post more legible, please use paragraphs. (Sorry, just the teacher in me!)

                              "Ceasar Chavez was an advocate for (mostly)illegal immigrant farmworkers, who were not citizens and while deserved fair pay and treatment , were not entitled to the same rights as citizens. I do not put that in the same category as "Founding Father".Do you?"

                              One, our labor laws cover all people. We have laws in place that apply to EVERYBODY. Doesn't matter if they are illegal, slave labor is outlawed, isn't it??? Are you saying it is legal to force illegal immigrants to work in sub-standard working conditions??? Two,no, I don't compare him to a "Founding Father," but I also don't believe in comparing them. Apples and oranges. If you have a problem with Chavez Day, take that up with the government for allowing it.

                              "I am speaking of "illegal immigrants" Do you think they deserve to be treated equally with the legal immigrants who are "lawfully"in the country?I don't."

                              You have to explain what you mean by "treating fairly." Yes, they DO NOT deserve to be abused and have crimes comitted against them.

                              "They have broken the law coming here, so to me they are criminals. While I feel sorry for their life in Mexico,"

                              AAAAAAHHHHHHHH yes. THE OLD MEXICAN TUNE..........All illegal immigrants are from Mexico???? Do you feel sorry for the affluent Japanese visa overstayer who has a wonderful life in Japan? What about Europeans? Don't single out a group, makes you out to be prejudice.

                              "I thought we had agreed, "the law has to be obeyed by everyone"If we were "fair " to the legal immigrants and the citizens, we would deport them , not reward them."

                              REWARD THEM, REWARD THEM WITH WHAT?? People like you are constantly going on with this reward? what reward are you speaking of??

                              "That is "Behavior 101", if you reward bad behavior, you will get more bad behavior."

                              When 245(i) was implemented, people were saying you're "rewarding" bad behavior. What reward did they get?? They were forced to pay a FINE and more for the entire AOS process, not to mention more if they had an attorney.......Gee that is some reward!!!!! How is paying a fine a reward?????

                              "It is unfair to law abiding legal immigrants, to treat "illegal" immigrants the same. It is worse than unfair, it shows disrespect for them and for our laws."

                              WAAAAAAA. Cry Me a River. I've lived long enough to know that life isn't fair. When I mean fair, I mean ALL people deserve the basic human rights despite their immigration status.

                              "We are losing the very thing that this country is supposed to stand for. The rule of Law. So they have won."

                              AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH. THE END OF THE WORLD,THE SKY IS FALLING.

                              That doesn't make sense. So, you're telling me the illegal immigrants have been waging a war to rid the U.S. of laws???? In our country, everybody who breaks laws, Enron scandal, murders, crime, everything,.........it was all broken down because of illegal immigrants??? Illegal immigrants cause others to commit crimes, how??

                              "They have succeeded in making us more like Mexico,"

                              I'm afraid I might have to call you racist if you continue along this path. All illegal immigrants are from Mexico????? In Florida, they have more Mexicans than Cubans?? Hatians don't break laws either??


                              THEY HAVE MADE US like Mexico??? The United States is now like Mexico??? Are you insane??? How can "they" make "us" commit crimes?? U.S. citizens don't have any responsibility for their own crimes????

                              "where they obey the law when it suits them and wink at it when it doesn't. I don't look at that as a plus."

                              So, you're saying Americans now obey laws less because of illegal immigrants??? What do you mean?? Are you joking??
                              RIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Americans obey laws 100% too, right??? Get off your high horse!! Everybody in America obeys every law!!!!!!! Nobody litters, nobody steals cable, nobody speeds, nobody, lies on their tax returns, nobody.............and if they do they can just blame it on illegal immigrants!!


                              "Well I like them because it gives us a larger picture than what we see in our everyday lives. In fact it is the data they are releasing from the 2000 census that finally proved that the illegals are NOT contributing anything to the country, and are in fact a hugh drain, costing every taxpayer in CA.$1,200.00more every year."

                              Big picture my a$$. Then why do you always single out Mexicans?????? If you are so concerned with immigration as a whole and the "big picture", it doesn't matter where they came from, but what we should do.....shouldn't it??

                              Again, for the MILLIONTH time. I won't argue stats because it doesn't solve anything, so lets say you're 100% correct with your stats. THAT DOESN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH THOSE HERE? What did your stats prove in that regard?? You made your point, now what is the solution??? Understand what I mean now.............

                              "Most people only had heard LA RAZA's bald faced lie,about how much they were giving to this country."

                              This goes back to the point I made earlier, some people will use their "stats" and others will use theirs, around we go............

                              "And I don't recall vast tracts of homes with 4 ft. high grass, before this invasion began."

                              What is it to you what a person does with their lawn???

                              "Nor do I recall children running loose or unmade hotel rooms."

                              U.S. CITIZENS don't have children that run??? You have to be joking with that one!!!! Unmade hotel rooms, then why hire illegal immigrants??

                              "We also DIDN"T have overcrowded schools with dismal test scores, overcrowded prisons, or emergency rooms, and you could drive over 10 miles an hour on the freeways."

                              YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN. Same old stuff.

                              "I am just not seeing the big plus in having them here."

                              You make it sound as if it is a decision we can make, "Do we want them here or not?" There is no decision to make!!!!!!! They are alread INGRAINED in the American society!!! I have hope with you, Janiss, that you will come to this realization that is facing you everyday. Maybe you will.................

                              "Again , I am talking illegals here."

                              Now you are!!

                              "And a lot of the jobs that have been created in Ca. are in the field of Social Services, to take care of them. So we are basically running a welfare program as far as those jobs go."

                              So, immigrants do create jobs!!!! AGAIN, are those social services for their U.S. CITIZEN CHILDREN?? If they are, then you have no complaint.

                              "Because the taxpayer is footing the bill for that also.You think this is a smart way to run a country?"

                              Irrelevant. What are we going to do about it, I ASK?

                              "The cost to the taxpayer is a burden that they have no choice about taking on."

                              Doesn't that make more sense to allow them to pay taxes????

                              "Do you think a single mother living in Arizona ,who 's child wants to go to USC, should have to pay 4 times as much as a kid in the country illegally who just happens to live in CA. ??You think that is fair??"

                              AAAAAAAHHHHHH yes. The old SHOULD. Should she.......yes because that is the way it is. If there were no illegal immigrants in CA, she would still be in the same situation and have to pay out-of-state tuition!!!! What do illegal immigrants have to do with her not being a resident of CA?? Is it RIGHT is it FAIR, is that what you ask?? LIFE ISN'T FAIR. I can point to MANY instances of life's unfairness.

                              I have family members in almost that exact situation. If it is a single mother, and doesn't make a lot of money, then they qualify for a hell of alot of financial aid especially for USC. If she is affluent, then what is the problem. Are we going back to talking philosophically again?????

                              "Being as the subject is illegal immigration, yes. That is 30% less crime we would have if they weren't here. More time for police to take care of the other 70 percent.Makes sense to me."

                              IF they weren't here. More philosophical nonsense. Lets talk reality..........they ARE here. If the 70% fo the people are already in jail then that means the police already took care of them right? I'm talking about the crime itself....big picture.

                              "Not according to the Justice department. They most often appeal their deportation. I live in Lancaster, Ca.We have a prison here where they keep immigrants who are appealing deportation.
                              According to people that I have talked to there, the only ones that are deported right away are the most violent ones."

                              Many are deported. Those that aren't, they are excersing the appeals process in OUR LAWS. Sounds like they aren't doing anything wrong in that...........

                              "The rest stay up to a year or more at a cost of $65.00 a day each, to the end of their appeal process.Do you think the taxpayer should be paying this for people in the country illegaly who commited more crime?? I don't."

                              Then why don't you take that up the government. OUR LAWS allow them to appeal, as mohan stated. Didn't you state that we have laws that can take care of this problem?????? If so then why do they allow an appeal????? Is that counterproductive? Read mohan's post.

                              "And for the thing about recognizing the country, where I live is now over half Hispanic."

                              AGAIN, the problem is what??

                              "And why should we let millions of people who are here illegally with no desire to become citizens, better themselves on the backs of the American taxpayer.??"

                              I am trying to get you out of this SHOULD mindset. They are here, and here to stay....
                              How do you know they don't want to become citizens?? Are you saying that nobody would take advantage of a 245(i) again?? No desire?? You tell me. How can somebody who EWI become a citizen right now?

                              Doesn't that make more sense to allow them to pay taxes..........

                              "If we need immigrant labor in greater numbers than we currently let in, we can have a guest worker program. With the agreement the workers will return to their country, when the job is finished. And the employer should be made to provide housing and insurance or medical care. And if they drive they can get a temp. liscense, if the employer provides insurance. And if there are crimes commited the employer will be responsible for all costs involved in any ligitation.I think employers will find "cheap"labor is not so cheap."

                              In a perfect world I would agree to a plan something like that. However, there is fantasy and there is reality...........

                              "It was just that the taxpayer had been carrying the cost."

                              Well lets take the burden off the citizen and allow illegal immigrants to pay taxes........

                              "And we need a bill passed stating that at least one parent of a child born here must be in the country legally for the child to be a citizen.The law as it is now was put in effect so that children born to former slaves would have equal standing."

                              I thought there was already a bill floating around somewhere that said something like there was an idea to not grant automatic citizenship?

                              "I will come back and answer some more of your questions later,"

                              Just answer this question (I'll make it easier), what do you think ,REALISTICALLY, will happen in the next year with illegal immigrants living in the U.S.? Don't give me what SHOULD happen, and what CAN happen! We all know already...........

                              WHAT DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN ON THIS ISSUE?

                              [This message was edited by SKS on September 10, 2003 at 03:10 PM.]

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                very well done SKS, you cleared many of the points in your discussion
                                I think it will be clear by that we are;

                                Not discussing of we should allow the illegal immigration.
                                we are not discussing if its right or wrong to legalize illegals.
                                we are not discussing crime or crime rate.

                                BUT WE ALRE DISCUSSING ;
                                What is going to happend in the future regarding illegal immigrants.
                                we are talking about, cost bearing to tax payers.
                                we are discussing what solution will be right and fit to our problem, deport them? if yes then what will the cost? and what means?
                                This decision should be imposed by the Law. Are we able to do that? how long it will take?
                                The other side of the coin, ;
                                can we legalize them? what will be cost/benifit?
                                yes benifit, ( as 245i has $1000 Panelty, a source to generate revnue, similar situation can be repeated and 7-10 mil X $1000.= revnue)
                                They will start paying taxes = another benifit,
                                they will be trackable in case of crime = security and benifit.

                                is there any other genuine solution ?
                                please don't write the **** that Law inforcement agencies start checking people on the road or house search to get illegals. this kind of suggestion is invasion of Citizens freedom and privacy and no one like that.No citizen wants to carry a document of proof of citizenship 24 hrs a day.

                                Question is remain same what SKS asked...
                                Its a discussion, not a legal advise..

                                Comment

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