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Abused Men, Defrauded USC, Marriage, Immigration, VAWA Fraud Thread

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  • #31
    I totally forgot!! Thank you yes 4now! The payment that is.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    God Bless America - God Bless Immigrants - God Bless Poor Misguided Souls Too

    National Domestic Violence Hotline:
    1.800.799.SAFE (7233) 1.800.787.

    Comment


    • #32
      WhiteUSC
      Fraud happens whether in immigration, tax, or any other local, state, or federal regulatory agency. I know, I have seen my share of fraud.

      Here are my points:
      1) How do we separate true domestic violence cases from fraudulent ones here on ILW or anywhere else? Again, whether the spouse is an immigrant or not, domestic violence is one of the fastest growing crimes in the US. It does happen and sometimes it happens when deaths occur in a murder-suicide situation. and that scenario is becoming more prevalent now.

      2) When an individual posts on the board and blames the immigrant spouse for everything or states fraud while not admitting any culpability, the question we need to ask is are you telling us only what you want us to hear, or are you telling us what we need to hear? From my experience, it tens to be the former and not the latter. And given that divorce is so rampant in ths country, whether marrying an immigrant spouse or not really does not matter.

      3) Davdah pointed this out in another thread when he stated there is always a benefit for an immigrant when going through divorce or VAWA. The same can be said for Domestic spouses who marry immigrants, especially what Western nations perceive a 3rd world. However, the reverse is also true. that is, there is a tendency from Western civilizations to perceive an immigrant, especially an immigrant woman, as passive, submissive, tolerant, etc to which it provides a perfect opportunity for the Domestic spuose in an abusive relationship, to contol or manipulate that other spouse to their way of thinking, believing, and acting. Albeit this is also too simplistic, the point is the benefit, whether immigration or not living in an empty nest, benefits apply on both sides. Why concentrate on one and not the other? Or why always dispel the one who is different, or from another country, rather than looking from both perspectives at the same time?

      4) Davdah also pointed out in that same post to remove the immigration benefit altogether from the equation. I really do not think what that outcoume will be? First and foremost, ti would have to be based on a quota system, which would be a violation of Title 7 of the 1964 Civil Right Act of 1964? It could also mean placing laws which interracial marriages would be severely limited. Not a good idea either. Or to remove VAWA altogether would place extreme jeopardy to those in true domestic violence circumstancces unless you were willing to change the immigration laws to be more flexible. But that of course would go against Davdah's premise to remove immigration benefit altogether.

      5) Most people here, myself included, know the current immigration laws, including VAWA immigration laws, need to be improved. The question is asked, "How to improve the current laws to ensure those who are in true situations are not affected by those who abuse the system? We must accept the fact that there will always be someone who will commit fraud no matter who they are or where they come from. But again, a delecate balance needs to be implaced to minimize fraud while protecting the innocent. Stronger proof, or more concrete proof might be the answer. A Federal trial would not be acceptable because the question of who would pay for the trials would eliminate any possibility. There are other avenues would might discuss, but not necessary at this time.
      "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre

      Comment


      • #33
        I will give a bit of an insight here, from my own experience.

        Some years ago, when I went into a shelter/safe house, I had no clue where to seek help.
        I did not get any immigration help through the shelter, I had to seek an attorney for that.

        I was told that I need to find a divorce attorney and an immigration attorney.

        I rang so many attorneys in the book, even far away to get different opinions in what I need to do, as I was scared and not sure what the procedures were.

        Of all the people I spoke to including Domestic violence during my stay in the shelter, VAWA was only brought up by the immigration attorneys to me.

        Nearly every single one, told me...don't worry, we can sort it out, you don't need your husband anymore, we can file for Green Card through the VAWA and that would be it. Encouraging me to come in and see them and they will process it no problem.

        No one else mentioned this to me, and I had no clue what they were talking about, but the immigration attorneys were very hopeful and made it out to be easy.

        I did see an attorney, who then had someone from DVIS come and see me and assess me. I would have had to go and see them again and go counseling, I guess for further assessment, but I never went, I never followed through with anything, didn't file etc..
        Stupid me went back to husband eventually for one reason or another.

        My point here is, (Not saying all immigration attorneys are like this), but they were the ones that were hungry for it. They promoted it to me.

        DVIS, the shelters, counselors, none of them were encouraging me to file VAWA, they were concentrating in helping me overcome what me and my son went through.

        I really don't think those agencies/shelters have a big part it in myself to help fraud, they do their job, and have to treat each person that goes through there the same, regardless of whether they are an immigrant or not.

        Yes they have connections to maybe some lawyers etc..but they don't promote it, it is the lawyers who do.

        Anyway, that is how I see it, through my own experience.
        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        God Bless America - God Bless Immigrants - God Bless Poor Misguided Souls Too

        National Domestic Violence Hotline:
        1.800.799.SAFE (7233) 1.800.787.

        Comment


        • #34
          WhiteUSC,

          just wanna thank you for taking one of
          the members advice to voice out your opinion
          on one thread.

          Comment


          • #35
            Well said Sprint. Thanks for sharing what must have been painful memories of that time.
            "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

            Comment


            • #36
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hudson:
              WhiteUSC
              Fraud happens whether in immigration, tax, or any other local, state, or federal regulatory agency. I know, I have seen my share of fraud.

              Here are my points:
              1) How do we separate true domestic violence cases from fraudulent ones here on ILW or anywhere else? Again, whether the spouse is an immigrant or not, domestic violence is one of the fastest growing crimes in the US. It does happen and sometimes it happens when deaths occur in a murder-suicide situation. and that scenario is becoming more prevalent now.

              <span class="ev_code_RED">Since we do not have any proof whether what OP is alleging is fact or fiction, it is very hard to say. We cannot clearly distinguish among the fraudulent and true. However, one thing I have noticed is your biased opinion in favor of immigrant woman. If someone just utters a word Abuse, you quickly jump out of your chair to assist. The term "abuse" is loosely defined within the context of immigration. I am all against domestic violence, well I am against violence it self. No human being has any right to beat other that is the principle I live by. But what defines domestic violence? Lately, if you might have noticed feminists organizations have gone over board to define violence. If your wife wore a new outfit and asked for your opinion, if jokingly you said you look ugly in that, as per the new definition of domestic violence that is considered insult and thus domestic violence. So if you have a personality of constantly joking, you better not get married otherwise you will be in jail for domestic violence. This is what it has come down to. The feminists' organizations are controlling Men's behavior now days. This is the reason it is one of the fastest growing crimes because everything is now considered domestic violence, a mere teasing, jokes, sarcastic comments etc. As I posted couple of links to ABC and FOX showing how men are now treated and no one comes to their assistance. Because in any culture, any where in the world you go men are always considered stronger than women. This might the case in other countries, but in USA I believe we are at par.</span>

              <span class="ev_code_RED">I agree there have been deaths related to domestic violence but out of 100 if 2 commit such act, the rest 98 are also labeled guilty. When I read the stories like Sean Patrick and the husband of Morocco woman, these guys worked hard to build their nest which is being taken away under the false pretense of Domestic Violence. I always question why justice system so biased and tilted towards woman? Those days are gone when woman used to sit home, cook, clean and take care of babies. The new America has women as board of directors of public company, CEO, SVP, VPs etc. Over half of the work force in financial industry is comprised of woman except pure investment banking of M & A.</span>
              <span class="ev_code_RED">Though on books the laws don't discriminate against gender, the reality is completely opposite. You know it very well and every one visiting the board. The ducks are stacked against men to begin with.</span>

              2) When an individual posts on the board and blames the immigrant spouse for everything or states fraud while not admitting any culpability, the question we need to ask is are you telling us only what you want us to hear, or are you telling us what we need to hear? From my experience, it tens to be the former and not the latter. And given that divorce is so rampant in ths country, whether marrying an immigrant spouse or not really does not matter.

              <span class="ev_code_RED">From my experience, some people might not like to disclose every thing that is happening to them and what has happened until the legal dust settles. The ILW is quite frequented by immigrants and USC always fears that if they disclose anything here, the other party will know the next legal move. And since we all are behind the screens not knowing who we are communicating with, we don't feel comfortable of revealing everything to a stranger. If a person gets out of the relationship in less than 6 months after receiving the GC, what does it indicate? And then files fraudulent VAWA to ensure the status is not jeopardize what do you say to that? Isn't it clearly indicating that the love is for the GC not the spouse? I have been contacted by several people where there spouse left in less than six months after receiving the GC. I have also been contacted by people whose marriage did not work 2-years after receiving the GC and they allege it is fraud. I do not believe to them because if it was a fraud, the person could have left sooner. </span>

              3) Davdah pointed this out in another thread when he stated there is always a benefit for an immigrant when going through divorce or VAWA. The same can be said for Domestic spouses who marry immigrants, especially what Western nations perceive a 3rd world. However, the reverse is also true. that is, there is a tendency from Western civilizations to perceive an immigrant, especially an immigrant woman, as passive, submissive, tolerant, etc to which it provides a perfect opportunity for the Domestic spuose in an abusive relationship, to contol or manipulate that other spouse to their way of thinking, believing, and acting. Albeit this is also too simplistic, the point is the benefit, whether immigration or not living in an empty nest, benefits apply on both sides. Why concentrate on one and not the other? Or why always dispel the one who is different, or from another country, rather than looking from both perspectives at the same time?


              <span class="ev_code_RED">Other than Middle East, entire world is influenced by Westernization. If you go to Asian countries, Britney Spears and all are very popular. They are very well acquainted to Western Culture, unless you are marrying a 60-year old woman who grew up in the environment that did not experience Westernization. The young women who are migrating here based on marriage are very well aware of the culture. They know what they are getting into. Again, the term controlling is very loosely labeled within the context of DV. What constitutes as controlling? Not allowing you to make phone call one time? Does that constitute as DV? Not allowing you to work or go to school, yes I do see that as controlling. But with the interference of Feminists Organizations, again this is blown out of proportion. </span>

              4) Davdah also pointed out in that same post to remove the immigration benefit altogether from the equation. I really do not think what that outcoume will be? First and foremost, ti would have to be based on a quota system, which would be a violation of Title 7 of the 1964 Civil Right Act of 1964? It could also mean placing laws which interracial marriages would be severely limited. Not a good idea either. Or to remove VAWA altogether would place extreme jeopardy to those in true domestic violence circumstancces unless you were willing to change the immigration laws to be more flexible. But that of course would go against Davdah's premise to remove immigration benefit altogether.

              <span class="ev_code_RED">One of the prominences of VAWA is to arrest the men right away based on allegations. No proof is required, no testimony first arrest then we will address it. We all are human being and when one gets arrested and put in jail on false accusations, it takes a toll on human body both physically and mentally, keeping the emotional and sentimental impact aside at the moment. Again referring it back to, Sean and Morocco woman guy, they were arrested and put in jail on false accusations. For one the charges were dismissed, other came out innocent from the trial. Who gets burned in this? USC, right? What is the course to get them compensated for such a malice abuse of the system? Nothing, because Americans are wealthy and they can afford hefty attorney fees. The hard earn money is wasted for the GC. </span>

              5) Most people here, myself included, know the current immigration laws, including VAWA immigration laws, need to be improved. The question is asked, "How to improve the current laws to ensure those who are in true situations are not affected by those who abuse the system? We must accept the fact that there will always be someone who will commit fraud no matter who they are or where they come from. But again, a delecate balance needs to be implaced to minimize fraud while protecting the innocent. Stronger proof, or more concrete proof might be the answer. A Federal trial would not be acceptable because the question of who would pay for the trials would eliminate any possibility. There are other avenues would might discuss, but not necessary at this time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


              <span class="ev_code_RED">A simple solution to VAWA abuse is having immigration amend the statue to provide USC an opportunity to provide contradictory evidence on what is being alleged. In a closed door secret process, you can submit VAWA affidavit alleging someone to be an abuser when you haven't even met the abuser. The USCIS is not going to validate that. The VSC VAWA unit is given 6 minutes to make a decision. Now how do you expect that truth will be revealed? USCs right of due course is being abridged here but no one is giving ****. Though the decision is administrative, it has far more implications and consequences down the road should the law makers tomorrow decide to make the decisions public record, come up with some law that if there is VAWA against you, you are XYZ. As it is, IMBRA is using it already. I believe it states if you have two VAWA against you, you are prohibited from marrying foreign woman.</span>
              I am not racist. I am not anti-immigrant. I am AGAINST CRIMINALS, FRAUDSTERS, WHO DISOBEY THE LAW, BREAK THE LAW AND PERPETRATE THE FRAUD.

              You may not like what I have to say but that does not mean I am wrong.

              Comment


              • #37
                How Female Illegals Abuse The System

                http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/roberts/070912
                I am not racist. I am not anti-immigrant. I am AGAINST CRIMINALS, FRAUDSTERS, WHO DISOBEY THE LAW, BREAK THE LAW AND PERPETRATE THE FRAUD.

                You may not like what I have to say but that does not mean I am wrong.

                Comment


                • #38
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by davdah:
                  In short, allow a USC the right to a defense. What I have preached all along as being the core fault.


                  What Hudson wrote in point 3 above wasn't so much the idea of benefit per se. Its the extra benefit beyond what a USC would receive. I do agree with him on the point about implied tolerance with foreigners, more or less. With some there exists a self perceived superiorty from the USC and expected submissivness. Not in all but enough to be significant.

                  On 4, I don't support removing immigration benefit entirely. Just that part, in my mind, that violates the consitutional protection of the USC. This also should be scoped within the realm of the Gov's permitted immigration intent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  I would agree with an effort to respond with one proviso: that is, include any documented evidence directly related to the VAWA claim. That is, only information that would be contrary to what the immigrant is claiming as emotional or physical abuse. I would also include the other spouse to be assessed by a qualified professional to determine if any emotional or physcial abuse indicated. No extraneous evidence to confuse the issue of any kind.

                  Please clarify on point number 4.
                  "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by davdah:
                    Good enough. As long as the accused has his/her day in court. Thats all anyone ever asks for. Now, if only the legislatures weren't so afraid of the NOW gang. They might actually do something. Perhaps when it hits home and its their son who gets nailed with something like this. My god, we actually agreed twice in the same day.

                    </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                    It will not be in court, it will still be an administrative action. When a VAWA petition is filed, a letter will be sent to the other spouse for exact evidence to the claim. You will have 120 days to respond. Addresses would be verified through IRS database only. No tax data would be shared.

                    I am basing this on the procedures for innocent spousal relief via RRA 98.
                    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hudson:
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by davdah:
                      In short, allow a USC the right to a defense. What I have preached all along as being the core fault.


                      What Hudson wrote in point 3 above wasn't so much the idea of benefit per se. Its the extra benefit beyond what a USC would receive. I do agree with him on the point about implied tolerance with foreigners, more or less. With some there exists a self perceived superiorty from the USC and expected submissivness. Not in all but enough to be significant.

                      On 4, I don't support removing immigration benefit entirely. Just that part, in my mind, that violates the consitutional protection of the USC. This also should be scoped within the realm of the Gov's permitted immigration intent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                      I would agree with an effort to respond with one proviso: that is, include any documented evidence directly related to the VAWA claim. That is, only information that would be contrary to what the immigrant is claiming as emotional or physical abuse. I would also include the other spouse to be assessed by a qualified professional to determine if any emotional or physcial abuse indicated. No extraneous evidence to confuse the issue of any kind.

                      Please clarify on point number 4. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Care to share you personal email to me? I have been in conversation with one victim who has shared information with me that is shocking. If it were to come out in news or in public, I betcha them DVS proponents will S*** in their pants.
                      I am not racist. I am not anti-immigrant. I am AGAINST CRIMINALS, FRAUDSTERS, WHO DISOBEY THE LAW, BREAK THE LAW AND PERPETRATE THE FRAUD.

                      You may not like what I have to say but that does not mean I am wrong.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I would like to clear up a fact here, as it is being brought up from time to time, and used as an example.

                        That certain person who was arrested and taken to jail, was because he would not leave the house when the police asked him to. He was not being arrested at the time, he was just asked to leave, calm down.

                        He refused, so he was arrested and put into jail.

                        If he had left the house and calmed down, maybe his situation might have changed somewhat. Who knows.

                        I just wanted to clear up a fact, a fact what he himself said.
                        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        God Bless America - God Bless Immigrants - God Bless Poor Misguided Souls Too

                        National Domestic Violence Hotline:
                        1.800.799.SAFE (7233) 1.800.787.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I do see both sides here, and I truly believe that the USC spouse, especially if a man should have rights to a defense, in case VAWA claim.

                          Going to court in a separate case, I am not so sure that would be a good idea, unless there is a way where they would assess each case separately, to determine the extent of the abuse.

                          The reason for this is, if right now I knew I had to go through yet another court case, separate to the divorce, Protective order and so on, I don't think I would see it through.
                          No, not think, I know 100% I would not see it through. I barely cope now and that is mostly for the divorce.

                          I could not cope seeing him in court, going through what happened all over again, after going through it already in the divorce and protective order hearings. I think for the real abused victims, it could push them over the edge.
                          I also believe that yes there will be less VAWA claims, and less fraud, however there will also be less real abused victims going forward and going ahead with it all. It could do a lot of harm for those real abused women.

                          Something else that has not been brought up, children. If children were abused to, would they want to have them in court too, again?

                          They need to find a way where they can assess each case separately or have it to where there isn't as many court cases going on which already include the abuse claims.

                          Each VAWA claim should be thoroughly assessed, and should hear the USC's side of things. The USC should be also evaluated, counseled, whatever, just like the immigrant, as if he was guilty this would be a good thing so they do not abuse again.

                          VAWA claims needs to be tougher, it should allow immigrant men have the same rights too as they also can be abused by the USC wife, and it should allow the USC to defend all the allegations made.
                          -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          God Bless America - God Bless Immigrants - God Bless Poor Misguided Souls Too

                          National Domestic Violence Hotline:
                          1.800.799.SAFE (7233) 1.800.787.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">VAWA claims needs to be tougher, it should allow immigrant men have the same rights too as they also can be abused by the USC wife, and it should allow the USC to defend all the allegations made. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            If I'm not mistaken, VAWA does cover male immigrants as well as female.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              True but they are not treated the same way and less support for them. It is a lot harder for a man to prove abuse than a woman can. There are not that many VAWA claims by men, it is a lot harder for them.
                              Men tend to not show the same emotions, they don;t know how to express or explain themselves like women do.
                              I am sure there would be a lot more VAWA claims from men, if they knew they would be given the same treatment as women, but they don't.

                              Men are not often believed if they say they were abused by their wives, whether immigrant or not.
                              Personally I do know quite a few men who have or are being abused, and it is on the increase.

                              If a man says they have been abused, some will say be a man, how can you let a woman do that, etc. Nasty but true.
                              Some women, especially those who want to marry just for a Green card, pick their men.
                              They can find those men who are vulnerable, over caring, desperate to be loved, and those women will work on those good values.
                              Then those women will manipulate those men, and make sure that the man feels so good, loved and loyal. Then suddenly the abuse starts, whether verbal, emotional and physical, knowing the man will not retaliate. They know how to pull the heart strings, and they know when to be kind and not to.
                              These men are too embarrassed to do anything about it, because who will believe them?
                              There isn't the same resources for men as there are for women, and they are not treated the same way.

                              In my opinion and experience, there are far more women claiming abuse now, not just because there is an increase, but because women in this day and age, are finally speaking up and not as embarrassed to tell someone, unlike years ago.
                              Years ago, it was acceptable for a man to hit their wives, but not anymore.

                              Men however, it was unheard of years ago, a man being abused by their wives.
                              However, now that women are stronger than they were a long time ago and the man of the house attitude is long gone, there is a huge increase in men being abused.

                              I think both women and men should be treated equally in abuse cases. I know it can destroy a man as much as a woman.
                              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              God Bless America - God Bless Immigrants - God Bless Poor Misguided Souls Too

                              National Domestic Violence Hotline:
                              1.800.799.SAFE (7233) 1.800.787.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by davdah:
                                I don't think they would care about tax info since its all about a GC and reputation.

                                Even if it were similar to an unemployment claim in procedure that would be good enough. They write something. You write something. Both submit to a phsyc eval. Have some assemblance of an appeal process with perhaps a 2 motion max. I'd vote for that if it were a ballot measure. Probably best to keep in informal to minimize lawyer interest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                Anytime when the IRS is used, most people hit the panick button, the shock button, or the conspiracy button. The reason why I said only to verify the address is becasue the IRS generally has the most current and prominent address available. Most people know that IRS info is safeguarded to the upmost degree.

                                As for the process, I do not think we want to use the unemployment agency analogy. To my understanding, it is one of the least enforced. And I am more familiar with innocent spousal relief which tends to look at obth sides. This is just from my experience.
                                "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre

                                Comment

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