BREAKING NEWS: PRO IMMIGRANTS ACTIVIST READY TO HELP CANNON WITH MAJOR FUNDING

[Hudson]

Hudson,

the point of his statement was to show most probably me (because it was me - who was stupid enough to make my innocent, senseless joke available to the general public) that sterilized Chinese don't have to use condom, because they don't have the ability to reproduce.
No one cares, whether China institutes mandatory or voluntary sterilization or no sterilization at all => if you have a strong desire to argue, choose something MORE interesting to argue about.

Like for example, how many sesame seeds there are on a Burger King's bun?

I have read the condom statements and ignored them for the most part. When IE makes jokes about soemthing, he usually puts some icon in the statement. He did not in the post I responded too; hence, I took the position that this is what IE believed. I was confirmed by the fact with his folowoing statement. He cannot wiggle his way out of this one no matte what he posts, cites, and makes fun of. If you are going to joke about culture, a people, or anything, at least have some knowledge of what you are joking about. What may be innocent to you is not in someone's else eyes.

Otherwise, we can joke that the only thing women should do is cook and make babies. HEHEHEHEHE

[Hudson]

Brickhead is a brickhead, no dispute about it ! Big Grin

When in doubt, attack the poster and not the post, right IE!

[Antifascist1]

Brickhead is brickhead

Not that I care about what brickhead thinks but this is my original statement:

"Chinese actually need not to use condoms (other than for STD preventiuon) - under the law they are prohibited to have more than one or two children so they are required to get sterilyzed after having max. allowed number of kids , which is one or two.
In China one can also be jailed if one keeps procreating illegally and avoids streilization".


Now let's break it down.

1. "..under the law they are prohibited to have more than one or two children.."

You yourself admitted that this is true.

2. "..they are required to get sterilyzed after having max. allowed number of kids , which is one or two".

This is also true, per your admission.
You just started to question particulars and exceptions.
And in order for you, brickhead, to question and argue those particulars you would need me first make statements contradicting those particulars - and in fact I made none.

It's like I said Chinese are of Asian complexion and you came to vehemently disagree and deny it by stating that you lived there and saw some black and white people as well therefore statement that Chinese people are of Asian complexion is completely false.
You must have IQ below ZERO, Hudson

In anycase I am not interested in arguing about something so remote as Chinese reproductive laws - what an idiot you are if you still do !

____________________________________________


http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=2125

US Court Refuses Asylum For Chinese Man Facing Forced Sterilization

Sep. 09, 1996

SAN FRANCISCO (CWN) - The US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on Friday that a Chinese man is not entitled the political asylum to avoid forced sterilization under Chinese law.

The federal appeals court rejected De You Chen's appeal to remain in the United States, saying to be eligible for asylum, an immigrant had to show evidence of persecution for reasons other than general population control, such as different treatment for those who publicly opposed the policy. Chen entered the United States illegally in 1993 when authorities ordered him to be sterilized after he and his wife had a third child in violation of China's birth control policy of one child per couple.

"Chen's only acts relevant to his political opposition to the People's Republic of China's birth control policies were his violation of the policies to explain that he wanted a son. Neither of these acts constituted political expression," the court's ruling said. "There was no indication that the PRC was motivated by Chen's political opinions," it added.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b0881714b44.htm

Saturday, May 19 5:00 PM SGT

Chinese woman refusing sterilization beaten to death: relatives


BEIJING, May 19 (AFP) -

A 34-year-old woman in southeast China's Fujian province was beaten to death by birth-control officials who wanted to sterilize her against her will, her relatives said on Saturday.

Sun Zhonghua, from a farming family in Xiapu county near the provincial capital of Fuzhou, was taken away by birth-control officials from her home by daybreak on Wednesday, a relative told AFP by telephone.

The officials told Sun, the mother of two boys aged 12 and 13, that she was to be taken to the birth-control clinic for sterilization, a procedure they had previously been pressing her to submit herself to.

She refused vehemently, showing documents obtained from a local hospital in April that the planned operation was not advisable because of a medical condition.

Despite her and her relatives' protests, she was forced into a waiting car and driven away.

In the afternoon of the same day, officials informed Sun's relatives that she had died after jumping from the fourth floor of the building housing the local birth-control administration.

Family members who were allowed to see her body discovered large bruises to her head and different parts of her body.

"There is no way she could have received those injuries from jumping to her death," said the relative.

During the anxious hours on Wednesday while Sun's relatives were waiting for news about her, they went to the police to report the birth-control officials' violent manner when taking her from her home.

But they were given the rounds by a string of police officials, who appeared unwilling to get involved in the case.

"We tried to report the incident, but there was no one to report to," said the relative.

Already being the mother of two, Sun understood that she had to conform with national population policies and had no plans of giving birth to more children, her family said.

She had gone to the hospital every year since 1992 to make sure she was not pregnant, they said.

China's controversial "one child" policy continues to result in serious human rights violations 20 years after it became law.

In the early years, the world was shocked by mass campaigns to round up women and sterilize them almost like cattle.

Such public campaigns are rare now, but the policy is being enforced in ways that many human rights groups say are equally unjust.

Pressure on China's army of family planning workers to meet the birth quota in their jurisdiction have led to widespread excesses.

Family planning workers and local officials resort to beating people, locking them up illegally, confiscating livestock and destroying their homes.

Despite the harsh measures, births are still growing at an annual rate of 10 million and the government has vowed to continue the policy to cap the population at 1.6 billion by the year 2050.

China's population now stands at nearly 1.3 billion, the largest in the world. Beijing credits the policy for helping the country avoid 300 million births.


--------------------------------------


http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/980...hina.abortion/

Chinese witness: Beijing forces sterilizations, abortions


June 11, 1998

Web posted at: 1:40 p.m. EDT (1740 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A former Chinese population control administrator says she felt like "a monster" during the 14 years she watched what she called China's brutal enforcement of its "one child per couple" policy.

Beijing says the policy is necessary for population control and that forced abortions and sterilizations are prohibited.

But Wednesday, lawmakers on Capitol Hill heard graphic testimony and saw a shocking video, both of which strongly counter China's official line on its role in family planning.

Gao Xiao Duan told Congressional lawmakers her office paid informants to report on unauthorized pregnancies of neighbors. Women who violated China's policy on pregnancy could be seized during a nighttime raid, or have their homes destroyed, as the government forced the offenders to submit to abortions, Gao said.

"I did so many brutal things," Gao told the House International Relations human rights subcommittee. "All those ... years I was a monster in the daytime, injuring others by carrying out the Chinese Communist authorities' barbaric planned birth policy."

Gao said she "could not live such a dual life anymore." She quit her job in Fujian province's Yongwe township this year, fled China, and arrived in the United States in April, she said.

Human rights activist and China critic Harry Wu helped get Gao out of her homeland.

Gao's evidence
Gao showed lawmakers documents and a videotape she smuggled out of China. The items, she said, were evidence of China's brutal enforcement of its one-child policy. There is no independent confirmation to authenticate the items.

The videotape, played the lawmakers, showed an aborted fetus, a detention cell with bars, an operating room and a computer records center.

The videotape also told the story of a woman suspected of illegally having a baby and hiding it. The woman claimed the government forced her to be sterilized, and that her husband then beat her and left her, saying: "What good is a chicken who cannot lay an egg?"

"Whenever I saw these things my heart would break and I felt that to help a tyrant do evil was not what I wanted," Gao told the committee through an interpreter.

Wednesday's was the second hearing the House International Relations human rights subcommittee had called on China in a week.

House Republicans are turning up the pressure on the issue of China roughly two weeks before President Clinton is to depart for his visit there.

Many politicians and human rights activists are calling on Clinton to cancel his trip, saying that the U.S. policy of "constructive engagement" with China gives Beijing no incentive to change its alleged human rights abuses.


Congress's showdown on China
To date, the U.S. House of Representatives has passed eight bills banning Chinese products allegedly made by slave or convict labor, and barring U.S. travel by Chinese officials who engage in religious persecution or forced abortions. Senate action on the measures is pending.

The White House and Congress still face the battle of Clinton's proposal to extend China's most-favored nation trade status. Resolutions have been introduced to deny the extension, but the extension is expected to be granted.

White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry said the White House has long been concerned about China's alleged human rights abuses, and that Clinton would likely discuss such allegations during his trip later this month.

"These are obviously practices that we consider abhorrent," McCurry said. "That will be part of the president's upcoming trip."

Clinton leaves for Beijing on June 25.


TheCorrespondent Jonathan Karl and Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Hudson]

Not that I care about what brickhead thinks but this is my original statement:

"Chinese actually need not to use condoms (other than for STD preventiuon) - under the law they are prohibited to have more than one or two children so they are required to get sterilyzed after having max. allowed number of kids , which is one or two.
In China one can also be jailed if one keeps procreating illegally and avoids streilization".


Now let's break it down.

1. "..under the law they are prohibited to have more than one or two children.."

You yourself admitted that this is true.

2. "..they are required to get sterilyzed after having max. allowed number of kids , which is one or two".

This is also true, per your admission.
You just started to question particulars and exceptions.

IE,
Let's get some of the myths you purputrated out in the open. You stated China has a law that requires women to become sterilized after having max number of children. This is patently false.

In reality, China institutes its One Child Policy through a set of regulations governing the approved size of Chinese families. These regulations include restrictions on family size, late marriage and childbearing, and the spacing of children (in cases in which second children are permitted). The State Family Planning Bureau sets the overall targets and policy direction. Family-planning committees at provincial and county levels devise local strategies for implementation. Despite its name, the one-child rule applies to a minority of the population; for urban residents and government employees, the policy is strictly enforced, with few exceptions. The exceptions include families in which the first child has a disability or both parents work in high-risk occupations (such as mining) or are themselves from one-child families (in some areas). The policy depends on virtually universal access to contraception and abortion. A total of 87 percent of all married women use contraception4; this statistic compares with about one third in most developing countries. There is heavy reliance on long-term contraception, with intrauterine devices and sterilizations together accounting for more than 90 percent of contraceptive methods used since the mid-1980s. The number of sterilizations has declined since the peak in the early 1990s. For the majority of women, no choice in contraception is offered; 80 percent of women in a recent large study said they had no choice and just accepted the method recommended by the family-planning worker. The use of these long-term methods keeps abortion rates relatively low, with 25 percent of women of reproductive age having had at least one abortion, as compared with 43 percent in the United States. The main reasons given for abortion are contraceptive failure and a lack of government approval for the pregnancy under the one-child policy.8 Women who proceed with an unapproved pregnancy are known to be reluctant to use antenatal and obstetric services because they fear they will face pressure to have an abortion or fines for violating the one-child policy.9,10 Many deliveries of babies that have not been officially sanctioned occur at home without trained personnel, a practice that is associated with the risk of maternal or neonatal mortality. A study carried out in rural Sichuan province in 1990 reported a doubling of maternal deaths for unapproved pregnancies as compared with those receiving government sanction.

Sources:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/353/11/1171
http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/kan...kid/dcva2.html

Now, lets look at enforcement. "In 1983, a massive campaign of compulsory birth control surgeries was carried out, which reportedly produced 14 million abortions, 21 million sterilisations and 18 million IUD insertions. This campaign was directed by the then minister-in-charge of the State Family Planning Commission (SFPC), Qian Xinzhong." Note the methods used, IE. Forced abortion, sterilization, and IUD isections were used to enforce the policy. Considering the numbers are small compared to the large population of China, one would think if it was mandatory, the numbers would have been larger. Also pointed out previously, the law is targeted to minority ethnic groups in urban areas. Rural areas and individuals with multiple child births are less likely to receive punishment, imprisonment, forced abortions, sterilization, etc.

It's like I said Chinese are of Asian complexion and you came to vehemently disagree and deny it by stating that you lived there and saw some black and white people as well therefore statement that Chinese people are of Asian complexion is completely false.
You must have IQ below ZERO, Hudson

I am still trying to understand this statement considering it has major grammar and composition flaws. The only thing I cam come up with is a IEism of whimisical nonsense.

In anycase I am not interested in arguing about something so remote as Chinese reproductive laws - what an idiot you are if you still do !

Ok, then why did you respond and why did you cite three cases from BIA, which has nothing to do with China's one child policy directly. You gave a gross generalization about something you know nothing about. You might as well have said, "All Mexicans are illegal" or something similar. NOTE: this is an analogy.

Source:
http://www.spuc.org.uk/lobbying/popu...-control-china

[Antifascist1]

I understand your attempt to "grasp the last sraw", Hudson

Apparently when it comes to immigration matters ,or any debate where I am truly interested in participating, the power of my intellect and logic is simply too overwhelming and leaves you or anyone else no chance of stating making a false and foolish points.
Hence all the great frustration you accumulate..
And here you see the "Golden Opportunity" to prove me wrong - and look how you jumped at it !
We made a joke about CONDOMS and mpod jokingly said that it's Chinese pride not to wear one, to which I responded that Chinese don't need to use condoms anyway since they have , under law, other methods forcing them not to have more than one or to children (BTW, nothing of what I stated was potently false ).
And there you were, with your wiggling tail and loud mouth, and you won't stop until I command you so..

Now get this ! Do understand ! I don't care about this issue ! I am not interested in disputing it !!

So take this "Chinese Procreation" issue as a bone from me (assume that I was wrong, if it pleases you) and begone.

As you see I am generous !


IE

[mpodcsin]

"One-Child Population Control Policy" of Communist China
* Initiated In 1979

* One child per couple

* All pregnancies must be authorized.

* Birth quotas (allowed numbers) are determined to attain the population targets (goals).

* Women are required to obtain a birth coupon before conceiving a child.

* Menstrual cycles are publicly monitored.

* Pelvic examinations are performed on all those suspected of being pregnant.

* All unauthorized pregnancies are terminated by abortion when detected regardless of stage of pregnancy. Use of forceps to crush the baby's skull or injecting pure formaldehyde into the soft cap of baby's head during or upon birth are means for "aborting" fully developed babies. Drowning or Smothering occurs in rural areas.

* Mandatory IUD insertion in women with one child. A one size large steel "O" ring IUD is used. Removal is difficult and X ray detection is possible. Other type IUDs are banned.

* Mandatory sterilization of couples with two or more children (November 1982 official circular of the Party Central Committee and the State Council).

* High rate of infanticide and abandonment of girl babies.

In accordance with Chinese tradition, daughters join the families of their husbands upon marriage and are seldom able to offer support or care for their parents in old age. By 1990 thousands of ultrasound machines were being imported to China. Domestic factories in China began manufacturing at the rate of 10,000 a year. In 1993 authorities banned the use of ultrasound for the purpose of *** selection, but the ban seems to be virtually unenforceable. Reports of *** ratios at birth for some areas has been 300 males to 100 females. A 1991 article in a Shanghai journal warned that if the *** ratios continued to rise, by the end of the century China would have an army of bachelors numbering some 70 million strong.

Official data on abortions show the annual total number of abortions increased between 1985 and 1990. Official data on birth control surgeries after 1990 are not available.
In 1983, the all-time peak year, family planning work teams carried out 21 million sterilizations, 18 million IUD insertions, and 14 million abortions (79 percent of the 21 million sterilization performed were performed on women).

More than half a billion birth control surgeries were performed between 1971 and 1990 (94 percent were performed on women). The Chinese government has conducted a highly coercive family planning program for 25 years. Coercion, Punishment and Tactics

* Women who resist abortions for unauthorized pregnancies are harassed, visited repeatedly, and sometimes held by family planning workers until they comply.

* Night raids have occurred to capture women hiding or trying to flee from the birth planning workers.

* Extreme fines are given for unauthorized births often exceeding a family's total income.

* Illegal children (unauthorized births) are not entered on population register so the child receives no medical benefits, no grain rations, no opportunity to attend school, and no chance for employment.

* A "responsibility system" was instituted in 1961 for management of family planning targets. National targets are broken down into specific targets for the provinces.

* Provincial governors are required to sign contracts with central authorities to fulfill provincial population targets. Each level of authority signs with lower authority. In the late 1980's central authorities added a policy under which a leader who fails to meet his family planning targets is considered a failure and is penalized accordingly. Penalties include loss of bonuses, promotions and even their jobs.

* Since the 1980's the provinces have been encouraged to set up "qualified birth control villages." Couples eligible to have children under family planning regulations may only do so if no one in the village has an unauthorized pregnancy or birth.

* Lack of results is taken as proof the locals neglected to "strengthen their leadership" over family planning work.

* Washington Post described house smashing and high forced sterilization rates in 1991 and 1992.

* April 1993 - New York Times reports punishment by severe fines, confiscation of property, smashed houses, and physical beatings.

------------------------------------------------


if the law is not absolute, or successfully implemented -> doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Antifascist1]

HEHEHE

Once brickhead - forever brickhead !

[Hudson]

Now get this ! Do understand ! I don't care about this issue ! I am not interested in disputing it !!

So take this "Chinese Procreation" issue as a bone from me (assume that I was wrong, if it pleases you) and begone.

And yet, here you are posting again for the fourth time on a topic you allegedly have no interest in. Methinks you are too prideful when you are given evidence contrary to what you believe or have read.

[Hudson]

if the law is not absolute, or successfully implemented -> doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Mpod,
No one is argueing whether the policy exists are not. I have argued that the One Child Policy does not equate into mass sterlization on ALL Chinese women. This is what IE has stated. And all you have posted is the causal effects of such a policy.

There are three aspects to China's One Child Policy:
1) Human Rights
2) Policy implementation: How does China implement the policy. This has been the argument and where IE was dead wrong on the gross generalization that All women are sterlized.
3) Causal effects of the policy, which you have stated.

[Antifascist1]

equate into mass sterlization on ALL Chinese women. This is what IE has stated.

If you are not a donkeyhole please quote/copy-paste part of my post where I used phrase "mass sterilization on ALL Chinese women".

Here is my post that you keep disputing:

"Chinese actually need not to use condoms (other than for STD preventiuon) - under the law they are prohibited to have more than one or two children so they are required to get sterilyzed after having max. allowed number of kids , which is one or two.
In China one can also be jailed if one keeps procreating illegally and avoids streilization".

[Hudson]

IE,
Let us look at your statement, shall we.

You stated, "Chinese actually need not to use condoms (other than for STD preventiuon)..." I gave this point to you since it dealt specifically with the condom comments. However, what you stated further regressed from the joke into something more altruistic...
"...under the law they are prohibited to have more than one or two children..." This is where my eyes perked. This is the basis of your entire arguemnt. In China, there is no law that prohibits women having a maximum number of children. It is a policy based on nationalized socialist family planning grogram. The regulations specificy that 1)all births must be approved by the Provincial family planning bureau, 2) generally, the family planning bureau generally targetss the family to have one child, but there are exceptions, and 3) the family planning bureau has a variety of methods which include, but not limited to, sterilization.

"...so they are required to get sterilyzed after having max. allowed number of kids , which is one or two." This has now became totally nonfactual. Chinese women are not required to be sterlized after they have max number of children. The family is required to seek government family practice doctors to make sure the policy is generally enforced. However, and as previously stated, this policy is not universal. There are a variety of methods which include IUD, abortion, preventive, and sterlization. This was demostrated in the links I have provided.

"In China one can also be jailed if one keeps procreating illegally and avoids streilization". Again, a gross generalization. Since human rights organizations watch who is being jailed and why, the Chinese government uses this tactic only as a last resort. It normally uses jail to punish either religious or political "rogues" who do not accept or who criticize openly, the official policy.

Now, compare your statement with the links I have provided. You will see that this statement was not factual in any way whatsoever.

[mpodcsin]

wow, I am in tears, laughing now, you're good Hudson...

[Hudson]

So let me ask you guys- how is this possible that the law still exists, if it does?
What about human rights, doesnt the international forum oppose?
It's hard to believe the laws are in effect and it is not talked about...

Iperson,
The One child Policy is not law, it is a directive which Chairman Mao and Chairman Xiaoping instituted to help control population growth. It was explained to me that the reason was more economical than political. China could not affort to feed an exponential population growth that was ocurring in China, especially the rural areas. Even though I disagree with the policy in general, I can understand the reasoning.

As for Human Rights, you are looking into an area which can be very subjective. If your political or religious beliefs cannot condone, for whatever reason, a population control policy initiated by the government, then Human Rights would be foremost on your mind. If your political beliefs are that of environmental, then you might be in favor of such a program. This type of issue is somewhat amoral. But the consequences of implementing and enforcing the policy are more profound.

On a side note, China has given hints that the program might be either eliminated or substantially revised to meet Human Rights concerns. So, there is hope.

[Antifascist1]

1. BRICKHEAD IS A BRICKHEAD !!!

Ok, brickhead, you asked for it

"...under the law they are prohibited to have more than one or two children..." This is where my eyes perked. This is the basis of your entire arguemnt. In China, there is no law that prohibits women having a maximum number of children. It is a policy based on nationalized socialist family planning grogram. The regulations specificy that 1)all births must be approved by the Provincial family planning bureau, 2) generally, the family planning bureau generally targetss the family to have one child, but there are exceptions, and 3) the family planning bureau has a variety of methods which include, but not limited to, sterilization.

So, your point is that it's policy rather than law
And that's why you kept arguing with me, over one word I used in the context of joking reply?
What a brickhead !!!

"...so they are required to get sterilyzed after having max. allowed number of kids , which is one or two." This has now became totally nonfactual. Chinese women are not required to be sterlized after they have max number of children. The family is required to seek government family practice doctors to make sure the policy is generally enforced. However, and as previously stated, this policy is not universal. There are a variety of methods which include IUD, abortion, preventive, and sterlization. This was demostrated in the links I have provided.

First of, brickhead, where did you see me stating WOMEN PER SE are required to be sterilized?
Does definition of "Chinese" include "FEMALE CHINESE" ONLY???
And where did I use words "UNIVERSALLY ENFORCED"??????

As I said - brickhead is a brickhead !!!

"In China one can also be jailed if one keeps procreating illegally and avoids streilization". Again, a gross generalization. Since human rights organizations watch who is being jailed and why, the Chinese government uses this tactic only as a last resort. It normally uses jail to punish either religious or political "rogues" who do not accept or who criticize openly, the official policy.

WHAT A BRICKHEAD, VERILY !!!

QUESTION: CAN IN CHINA ONE ALSO BE JAILED IF ONE KEEPS PROCREATING AND AVOIDS STERILIZATION?
IS IT POSSIBLE, DID IT EVER HAPPEN?
SURE IT DID!!! SURE IT CAN !!!
Even few recorded incidents are enough to say "IT CAN HAPPEN".
NOW WHERE IS THE GENERALIZATION OTHER THAN IN YOUR BRICKHEAD???

Now, compare your statement with the links I have provided. You will see that this statement was not factual in any way whatsoever.

Now, compare your BRICKHEAD statements with comments I made.
Though, methinks, BRICKHEAD will never get the point !

[Antifascist1]

Don't you just love those Chinese 'policies' and what FAIRUS.ORG advocates here, iperson !