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  • #46
    Okay, I'll give it to you, that Title 8 Section 1325 (U.S.C.) embodies what you call: "Laws are already on the books, illegal aliens are criminals."

    Have you got anything else to support your premise? Sorry if I missed it.

    In this particular part of US Code, "civil" is all over the place; while "criminal" is mentioned once, followed by the phrase: "or other civil penalties that may be imposed."

    I don't intend to argue with you on this context, for some obvious reasons. Many have tried, but failed. I don't deceive myself that my fate would be any different. You may even call me a moron again. And I don't want to call you an idiot. No. That's not my nature. I'll do my best to hold myself back. I promise.

    Ow, just one point though. 8 U.S.C. 1325 is apparently titled: IMPROPER ENTRY BY ALIEN. The key phrase is, IMPROPER ENTRY, right? For all we know, for the most part, this connotes aliens crossing our borders, or minimally, by sea, perhaps. By air, well, very unlikely, I suppose. Our entry points are porous indeed, but not yet up to such a desperate level.

    Now, the estimates are varying, that's why it's called estimate by the way, that these IMPROPER ENTRANTS account for 30 to 40% of our 12 million illegal residents who are by your definition, criminals. But because I'm a generous person and for the sake of this discussion, I'll give you an even 50%, yes, six million criminals are yours for the taking.

    Okay, my nagging question is that, what would happen to the other six million? Section 1325 seems to me to be so silent on them. Just to give you a clue, 99.99% of them have PROPERLY ENTERED and were inspected or paroled prior to entry. But who, for one reason or the other, violate the terms and conditions of their legal entry. Hence, they eventually fall under the "illegal aliens" category.

    And yet because of your tendency to generalize, these LEGAL ENTRANTS, but overstayed or violated the requirements of their legal entries, are also ILLEGAL ALIENS who are on US soil as we talk now, and by association, are also CRIMINALS.

    And, why, why, why (you missed to answer my question), the likes of Sensenbrenner waste my tax money and yours (I assume you are paying) in various troubles (meetings, caucuses, sessions, supplies, personnel, time, finances, effort, etc.) to come up with the failed bill aimed at "criminalizing" those millions if, as you said, they are already "criminals" on the books?

    Yes, indeed, raids are being conducted but not to arrest "illegal aliens" per se but because they are suspected to be engaging in document fraud (i.e. fake SSN's, ID's, etc.) which is a "federal offense."

    Protest rallies happen every time everywhere. Day labor centers are actively operational, yes, everyday. The authorities would always have a heyday catching, while brandishing Section 1325, including Sundays and holidays!

    But this is not happening. I repeat, not happening. The government is inept? Doesn't understand the meaning of "criminality" on the books?

    Shy? Scared? Compassionate? Procrastinating? Or what else? I'm really, really confused. Never mind, it's just probably the workings of the "moron" in me!

    Before I close, a definition of terms is in order. A moron is a mildly mentally retarded person; an idiot is a person affected with extreme mental retardation.

    A moron can be institutionalized. An idiot is a hopeless case. In most instances, I refrain from judging.


    • #47
      Jeff - if all illegal aliens are criminals, why does the DHS make a clear distinction (red font) in the article below:

      U.S. Department of Homeland Security
      U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
      News Release

      November 16, 2004

      ICE Detention And Removal Sets Record For Fiscal Year 2004

      Alien Removals Increase by 12,000; Fugitive Alien Apprehensions Climb 112 Percent

      WASHINGTON -- <span class="ev_code_RED">The removal of criminal and other illegal aliens</span> from the United States reached record levels, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) announced today, with 157,281 aliens total removed in Fiscal Year 2004. In addition, ICE recorded a sizable increase in apprehensions under a new program specifically targeting fugitive aliens.

      ICE's Office of Detention and Removal Operations (DRO), responsible for removals of aliens, credited the fiscal year increases with the agency's more aggressive focus on targeting criminal and fugitive aliens -- those who pose the most serious risks to public safety and national security. As the largest investigative agency in the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS), ICE is responsible for the enforcement of the nation's immigration and customs laws.

      "Removing criminal aliens and other illegal aliens from the United States is critical to the integrity of our immigration system and important to the safety of our communities," said DHS Assistant Secretary for ICE, Michael J. Garcia. "The 9/11 Commission Report details how our immigration system was exploited by terrorists, and we know that other dangerous criminals have sought illegal entry by similar means. We are bringing to bear the full force of our authorities to locate and remove those in the country illegally."

      Nearly 53 percent of those removed were criminal aliens -- that is, aliens who are eligible for removal based upon a criminal conviction in the United States. ICE removals of criminal aliens reached 82,802 in FY04, an increase of 6.6 percent over the previous fiscal year. Removals of non-criminal aliens increased by over 10 percent to 74,479.

      ICE also noted significant gains in apprehending and deporting fugitive aliens -- individuals who were ordered deported from the United States but who failed to report for removal -- under the National Fugitive Operations Program (NFOP).
      From March 1 through Sept. 30, 2003, when ICE began tracking fugitive apprehensions, DRO apprehended 3,409 fugitives with final orders of removal. By comparison, in the same seven-month period of FY04, DRO apprehended 7,239 fugitives with final orders of removal, an increase of 112 percent over the FY03 period. Total FY04 apprehensions of fugitives were 11,063.

      DRO also contributed substantially to Operation Predator, ICE's initiative for targeting criminals who sexually exploit children. Operation Predator has resulted in more than 4,300 arrests nationwide in just over one year. Approximately 85 percent of those arrested were foreign national sexual predators whose crimes make them deportable. Since the initiative began in July 2003, DRO has deported more than 2,100 child predators.

      In addition to removals, DRO made significant progress with two new programs that serve as cost-effective alternatives to detention for aliens who do not pose threats to national security or public safety. The Intensive Supervision Appearance Program (ISAP), which began as a pilot program in a few selected cities, is now operating in eight DRO field offices. To date, more than 1,300 aliens have enrolled in the ISAP pilot program.

      Additionally, DRO this year established the Electronic Monitoring Devices (EMD) program to ensure compliance with court and removal orders. Through October, 1,566 aliens have enrolled to wear either a monitoring ankle bracelet or report by telephone to a case manager as part of the program.

      A report released on November 8 by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), the investigative arm of Congress, noted that ICE's immigration enforcement efforts are "moving in the right direction" thanks to improved planning and performance measures under the agency's Homeland Security mission.

      For more on the GAO report (titled "Immigration Enforcement: DHS Has Incorporated Immigration Enforcement Objectives and is Addressing Future Planning Requirements"), visit GAO online at
      For more information on ICE, Detention and Removal Operations and immigration enforcement, visit us online at


      • #48
        RN: I can keep repeating the law to you over and over, gave examples, may actually be completely unable to understand. What is perfectly clear, and in written form, makes sense to someone like me, but people like you on the other hand, you need alot more explanation. No wonder there are sooo many illegal aliens here. You illegal aliens and supporters are just not capable of understanding laws and facts or you just refuse to abide by them...but illegal aliens will continue to be rounded up, and deported. Also, just because you are not directly notified every time an illegal alien is caught / deported, does not mean it isn't happening.

        ProudUSC - It could be the words "and other" could be inclusive of the word criminal, as in association to other criminals that are not illegal aliens, but are legal permanent residents or legal non residents who have not obeyed the law. Perhaps even illegal aliens that have other criminal but non immigration issues. DHS and USCIS know what the law is, they have provided this information to everyone and I've passed on that information to people including yourselves. You might be in the same boat as RN, just need alot more information than what is usually given in order for you to understand. An idea to both of you might be to print out all of this topic and give it to someone who could explain it to you better. Say an immigration judge??


        • #49
          Can't we all just get along? Stop making it harder for the older people and the kids? Its not right. Its not going to chage anything. We'll get our day in court. I;m neutral, I love everybody. It's not right. We can all get along. We're all stuck here for a while. Let's try to work it out.


          • #50
            Looks like a very unconvincing... nope, frustrating, response to me. I was expecting a little bit more of at least an above-mediocre statements. Reading back, at least that's how you projected yourself to be when you started this thread.

            Okay, show me which part of that US Code that you claim I don't understand. Give me a test. Just to be fair with you, as you can see, I condescended down to your (childish) level to give you six million ILLEGAL ENTRANTS for you to classify as "criminals."

            So on the other hand, I would want you to at least justify your prejudicial statement that "Illegal Aliens Are Criminals" including the other six million who LEGALLY ENTERED but became illegal aliens themselves.

            But instead, you dodged the simple question and took a refuge by accusing me of lack of comprehension ability. Very typical - attacking the poster, not what has been posted!

            As soon as you came up with a more decent idea, I'm just a few clicks away.


            • #51
              ...because all of the answers to your questions including your second last post are already posted within this thread. I'm not going to post something I've already posted here. If you can't read/understand what is already there, I can't help you.

              Read it again or seek others to help you understand, such as an immigration judge.


              • #52
                Very, very convenient and cowardly! Where? Where? I can't see any definitive answers. Just generalizations and childish tantrums. Show me!!!


                • #53
                  "Trolls can be existing members of a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. The key element under attack by a troll is known only to the troll.

                  A troll's main goal is usually to arouse anger and frustration among the message board's other participants, and will write whatever it takes to achieve this end. One popular trolling strategy is the practice of Winning by Losing. While the victim is trying to put forward solid and convincing facts to prove his position, the troll's only goal is to infuriate its prey. The troll takes (what it knows to be) a badly flawed, wholly illogical argument, and then vigorously defends it while mocking and insulting its prey. The troll looks like a complete fool, but this is all part of the plan. The victim becomes noticeably angry by trying to repeatedly explain the flaws of the troll's argument. Provoking this anger was the troll's one and only goal from the very beginning."


                  • #54
                    It's all there, however reading your posts, you wouldn't understand it, or even believe that it is right in front of you, or believe the information itself...sooo, ask someone (like an immigration judge) that way you'll actually believe the information you're given.


                    • #55
                      "if all illegal aliens are criminals, why does the DHS make a clear distinction (red font) in the article below:-- The removal of criminal and other illegal aliens from the United States reached record levels"

                      They are clearly distinguishing 2 types of criminal and therefore, removable, aliens. A 'criminal alien' and an 'illegal alien'. Both committed crimes but are removable for different reasons. The first type is removable because of some other crime not related to immigration. A person could be here legally, commit a crime and then be subject to removal. Thats a "crimiinal alien". Before they committed whatever crime it was, they were here legally. On the other hand, an EWI was never here legally. They are NOT implying at all that breaking immigration laws is not a crime but merely distinguishing the two. The priority is of course to remove rapists, murderers, and the like before dealing with an EWI who has not committed any other crime beyond entering illegally.


                      • #56
                        You make the claim! I want the answers from you. The six million "legal entrants." Sensenbrenner. Where???


                        • #57
                          whknapp, or it could be some of the participants are just unable to understand or believe the information they're getting and their reaction is to blame the messanger. Kind of like the "racist" remark most illegal aliens throw out when they have absolutely no facts to give.


                          • #58
                            At least I didn't do that. You did. You called me a moron. I'm still holding back to give you your deserved label.

                            Don't turn your back on me please. If you're a man. This is not the way to treat a "lady in heat."


                            • #59
                              Definition of criminal alien
                              "Criminal aliens"”non-citizens who commit crimes"

                              The definition means that a person already in the country that is commiting crimes is a criminal alien. Someone who enterred the country illegally committed a crime on the border but not inside therefore is not by this definition a 'criminal alien'. A Green Card Holder who commits a crime and enterred the country legally would be considered a 'criminal alien'.

                              In the above statement it appears that they are discussing illegal aliens who committed crimes and those that did not. There is a special unit that is assigned to go after illegal aliens who commit further crimes. They are given a higher priority which is the reason for the distinction. Not committing any more crimes does not forgive the original crime.


                              • #60
                                LOLOL...daaam...I don't even think an immigration judge could help you. LOL


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