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  • #46
    so davdah and sourkraut have 'proved' the existence of god, by what? writing something? woo hooo....why is it that this particular deity, claimed to omnipotent by his/her brainwashed believers, is so impotent when it comes to, oh, say, torching an abortion clinic or shooting a doctor that performs abortions, all 'in the name of god' (or as often, 'god told me to do this')...if god was so unhappy with said abortion clinic/doctor, why couldn't he/she have just 'smitten' it/him/her out of existence? Why does this deity need the intervention of us lowly human beings?
    I have not seen one shred of proof of the existence of god or allah or any other particular deity/supreme being. Of course, anyone can believe in anything they wish, but the arrogrance and hypocrisy of brainwashed believers surfaces quickly when they call upon said deity to do harm to someone else, but ...alas...nothing happens.
    And ambercrumbly....still waitin' for that phone call...but maybe ole allah is too busy 'keeping score.'

    Comment


    • #47
      Why would he call you? to talk about Illegal immigrants or about YOUR COUNTRY? or maybe about the Vietnam war how your A$$ got beaten there! Just take it the way it seems to be, you are on the ground and he is up the sky. How happy i am when i remember being in Mecca saying Allah’o Akbar wishing nothing from this life but his mercy! Take it easy S12, whatever nerve you have on you, you still cant fly,,,,,,!


      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Someone12:
      so davdah and sourkraut have 'proved' the existence of god, by what? writing something? woo hooo....why is it that this particular deity, claimed to omnipotent by his/her brainwashed believers, is so impotent when it comes to, oh, say, torching an abortion clinic or shooting a doctor that performs abortions, all 'in the name of god' (or as often, 'god told me to do this')...if god was so unhappy with said abortion clinic/doctor, why couldn't he/she have just 'smitten' it/him/her out of existence? Why does this deity need the intervention of us lowly human beings?
      I have not seen one shred of proof of the existence of god or allah or any other particular deity/supreme being. Of course, anyone can believe in anything they wish, but the arrogrance and hypocrisy of brainwashed believers surfaces quickly when they call upon said deity to do harm to someone else, but ...alas...nothing happens.
      And ambercrumbly....still waitin' for that phone call...but maybe ole allah is too busy 'keeping score.' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Comment


      • #48
        The rules of argument (if you want to argue logically) require one to prove existence rather than non-existence.
        In other owrds, one is not obligated to prove non-existence, it's those who make positive assertion that also bear the burden of proving it.

        As to morals, Nietzsche made a daring attempt in his Zur Genealogie der Moral to answer this question , but couldn't really break it down as he was losing his mind at the time. But it still should serve as one of the Morality 101 books for any dilletant who wishes to arrive to even basic questions and critical approach of same in the ways that may have never popped up in his or her head before.

        As to wonders of Nature that escape our ability to penetrate those, as testified by brightest minds of XXth century , among whom were Bohr, Bohm, Einstein, Feynman and others: well, for you to even begin to voice anything resembling of required deep reflection on this subject you would first need to immerce yourselves in many years of studies and contemplations of the ways of Nature- as empirically evidenced - and you would have to make constant extraordinary efforts in hopes to arrive at some point to the level that would allow you to get a glimpce of and grasp what brighest of all had thought of it (which would still only open the door to enormous amazement and never give you any better vision of complete, not any better than if you were trying to pry into the depth of the Ocean from above the surface of it) , and even then you would most likely fail to see even as little as immediately under the surface of it as it takes an individual of very rare intelectual capacity and abilities to attempt getting into that type of subjects.

        It would be a foolish waste of a time for a man of senses to get into discussion of such subjects on public forums , with random participants whose firmness in expressing their opinions rivals only the exhibition of an almost total absence of any knowledge to necessary to back it up.

        And those of us who ever participated on such discussions with those who are way to far removed from comprehending it did already discover, and it was a bitter discovery at that, what a waste of time it had been.
        http://www.anbsoft.com/images/usflag_med.jpg

        "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit

        Comment


        • #49
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by davdah:
          If what you say you believe, then your post is the most wasteful of all.

          When an assertion is made and questioned, it doesn't matter the subject. There exists a requirement to defend it. That is the 'existence', the position taken. To relieve atheists of the burden to prove non-existence, which is their argument, it serves to reinforce the weakness of their position.

          </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

          How is it most wasteful of all to say it would be wasteful to get into further discussion of this subject and stop there ?
          Hmm...

          As to general rules of logical argument why do you make a fool of yourself by disputing the obvious?

          What if i say that you have ten heads with fifty eyes all over it and that you hid it somewhere in constellation of Orion, how are you going to disprove it?

          davdah, you shouldn't be getting into this because you will make a bigger fool of yourself than you actually are.
          http://www.anbsoft.com/images/usflag_med.jpg

          "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit

          Comment


          • #50
            Ok, davdah, whatever

            Have a good one.
            http://www.anbsoft.com/images/usflag_med.jpg

            "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit

            Comment


            • #51
              How is that for proof?

              Wisdom's Call
              Does not wisdom call out?
              Does not understanding raise her voice?
              On the heights along the way where the paths meet, she takes her stand; beside the gates leading into the city at the entrances she cries aloud:

              To you oh men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge. Choose my instructions instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold, for wisdom is more precious than rubles and nothing you desire can compare with her.

              I, wisdom dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion. To fear the lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech. Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power. By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just; by me princes govern and all nobles who rule on earth. I love those who love me and those who seek me find me. With me are riches and honor enduring wealth and prosperity. My fruit is better than fine gold; what I yield surpasses choice silver. I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full.

              The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works before his deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity from the beginning , before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the wold. I was there when he set the heavens in place when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

              Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hat me love death.
              “...I may condemn what you say, but I will give my life for that you may say it”! - Voltaire

              Comment


              • #52
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by iperson:
                I know, OldE. It's absurd to say the least, that something that doesn't even exist has to be proven as such. Do we also have to prove that $%#^& and *(&%$# and #@$%^& don't exist too?
                On top of that, to add a little twist to an already absurd situation is that I need to battle a logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum, on which a theist mind relies as the basis for god's existence, beyond f.airytales. It is the only argument feasibly acceptable that the whole theistic theory is based on, because there can be no other, and yet is it an utter fallacy.

                I agree with you that there is much we don't know, and there is a power of life, larger than we can ever understand.
                But that power has no approximately personal or any type of connection to us, nor will we ever have a connection to "it" in any sense. This is an indisputable fact, as logic supports it. In order for free life to exist, there cannot be any ties between different levels of existence in a consequential universe.
                God's existence means an elimination of free will altogether, absolute control and limits on existence, and its evolutionary free process. His existence would basically introduce an element of chaos and subvert any chances for life to exist.
                In order for life to exist, it must be free of a human God.

                </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Don't tell me things i knew when you wre running through under the table without lowering your head, iperson

                Of psychological fallacy of too human habit of projection of things inherent to the person to those outside of it i am aware of too well

                You too have a good one.
                http://www.anbsoft.com/images/usflag_med.jpg

                "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit

                Comment


                • #53
                  Alright, so let's get to the bottom of this. You think I argue ad populum and ad ignoratum?

                  I like to be normal and I like to do what others do. I belong to the mainstream of people - to the majority. I am a healthy individual, with healthy hormones and healthy emotions that respond to the right kind of attraction - non of them are poled wrong. I have God given wisdom and a God given conscience and I use it to the fullest.

                  Atheists, I think are not normal in that they argue besides the mainstream of people - moreover, in the minority. Why do they argue that God doesn't exist? Because God and everything surrounding the knowledge of God - wisdom and conscience gets in their way. The righteousness and evil surrounding the existence of God would make them feel uncomfortable because they are not normal and they know they are not. And, because they are abnormal and cannot ever become normal, they rather seek to eliminate God then accept their abnormalcy.
                  “...I may condemn what you say, but I will give my life for that you may say it”! - Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><span class="ev_code_red">I agree with you that there is much we don't know, and there is a power of life, larger than we can ever understand. </span>
                    But that power has no approximately personal or any type of connection to us, nor will we ever have a connection to "it" in any sense. This is an indisputable fact, as logic supports it. In order for free life to exist, there cannot be any ties between different levels of existence in a consequential universe.
                    God's existence means an elimination of free will altogether, absolute control and limits on existence, and its evolutionary free process. His existence would basically introduce an element of chaos and subvert any chances for life to exist.
                    In order for life to exist, it must be free of a human God.

                    But if not this little discussion, we'd never know that Davdah still believes in Santa Clause.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


                    What are you arguing about iperson. You are in agreement that there is a higher power/supreme being. end of story. The diety these people speak of and the one you refer to is not a human diety. By whatever name that this supreme being is referred to God/Allah etc, it is a supreme being not human, You may not agree with religions... perhaps this is your argument, but it seems you are in agreement with the rest of us here that there is a supreme being running the show.

                    <span class="ev_code_RED">@ Davdah</span>

                    Come on man.. I hope you were joking. Santa has only been around in the commercial market for about 150 years or less. It became popular to promote retail sales to tie in with christmas (which was madeup to draw the pagans into the catholic church by combining traits of the winter solstice celebration with a birth of jesus). reality. there is no birth of jesus on December 25th and there is no santa claus. It is all one big lie used to manipulate the masses. The lst 90 years have been relentless because of the $$$ it generates.

                    Next you will have us thinking that this holiday Thanksgiving has been around forever.

                    We will not be done if this Santa thing goes away again. Buying and spending will be more stable thru out the year instead of one or two shot deals from nov to dec.

                    read here

                    and here

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I believe in you...always have always will.


                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas
                      “...I may condemn what you say, but I will give my life for that you may say it”! - Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by iperson:
                        ...
                        I have no personal reasons to unfollow a god, and follow logic instead. Ad hominem is a total fallacy and an irrelevant factor here, trust me. My atheism is entirely objective and rational in nature. I do not reject the human spirit and human culture, which I believe is the closest to what a god could be, I do not reject it. Quite on the contrary, I embrace humanity in all its frailty, which is more than any God fearing Christian ever does. Because I understand it so much more, without God in it.
                        And I cannot reject something or someone that doesn't exist, at least not in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        It's funny how atheists and agnostics claim logical and rational thinking in rejecting the existence of God or a Supreme Being.

                        Premise 1:
                        It's only through creation by a Supreme Being that something can come out of nothing and sustain all its logical and rational existence.

                        Premise 2:
                        That same being reigns superior in power and intelligence to the same tasks at hand, and to all His creations, man included, being His masterpiece. Hence, He's aptly called the "Supreme Being" that means a being that reigns supreme to and over all.

                        Premise 3:
                        The Creator exists first before all His creations. It can't be the other way around, which leads us to...

                        Inference 1:
                        A creation cannot create its Creator.

                        Inference 2:
                        A Creator or a Supreme Being, however you perceive him to be, exists. To believe otherwise defies logical and rational thought process.

                        Conclusion:
                        Atheists and agnostics think and believe illogically and irrationally. And they can't prove their allegations.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD

                          The existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of philosophy and theology for thousands of years. Most of the time, these debates have revolved around all kinds of assumptions and definitions. Philosophers will spend a lifetime arguing about the meaning of a word and never really get there. One is reminded of the college student who was asked how his philosophy class was going. He replied that they had not done much because when the teacher tried to call roll, the kids kept arguing about whether they existed or not.

                          Most of us who live and work in the real world do not concern ourselves with such activities. We realize that such discussions may have value and interest in the academic world, but the stress and pressure of day-to-day life forces us to deal with a very pragmatic way of making decisions. If I ask you to prove to me that you have $2.00, you would show it to me. Even in more abstract things we use common sense and practical reasoning. If I ask you whether a certain person is honest or not, you do not flood the air with dissertations on the relative nature of honesty; you would give me evidence one way or the other. The techniques of much of the philosophical arguments that go on would eliminate most of engineering and technology if they were applied in those fields.

                          The purpose of this brief study is to offer a logical, practical, pragmatic proof of the existence of God from a purely scientific perspective. To do this, we are assuming that we exist, that there is reality, and that the matter of which we are made is real. If you do not believe that you exist, you have bigger problems than this study will entail and you will have to look elsewhere.

                          A practical man's proof of God!
                          “...I may condemn what you say, but I will give my life for that you may say it”! - Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            it is sure clear that several posters are thoroughly brainwashed....proof of god? haven't seen it...and just because you say it's so doesn't prove jacques merde....
                            no one is walking on water...no one has ever violated the laws of physics...no one has been reincarnated in accurate, recorded history (the bible is just a collection of stories written by men in order to (a)brainwash those living in trailerparks and goat herds and (b) attempt to rationalize categorizing women as second class human beings, which for me, disproves the existence of god...certainly the Catholic/Christian/Allah one....probably davdah, UnPatriotic&ProudOfItUSC,Sourkraut and even that goatphukking ambercrumbly send money to charlatans like Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson, believing (foolishly) that by sending these ripoff artists cash, they will reserve a front row seat in heaven....yea right...P.T. Barnum was right.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Someone12:
                              it is sure clear that several posters are thoroughly brainwashed....proof of god? haven't seen it...and just because you say it's so doesn't prove jacques merde....
                              no one is walking on water...no one has ever violated the laws of physics...no one has been reincarnated in accurate, recorded history (the bible is just a collection of stories written by men in order to (a)brainwash those living in trailerparks and goat herds and (b) attempt to rationalize categorizing women as second class human beings, which for me, disproves the existence of god...certainly the Catholic/Christian/Allah one....probably davdah, UnPatriotic&ProudOfItUSC,Sourkraut and even that goatphukking ambercrumbly send money to charlatans like Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson, believing (foolishly) that by sending these ripoff artists cash, they will reserve a front row seat in heaven....yea right...P.T. Barnum was right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              We're talking about generalities about the universe, Supreme Being, where we came from and where we're going to. Nobody is talking about religions except you. See? You're the one who's brainwashed here. So impertinent and so irrelevant of you as usual.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by iperson:
                                What you wrote above RN makes absolutely no sense. You're a.s.s.uming we are a creation, something significant, an ultimate intention of a conscious being. Yet, you offer no proof that this is the case.
                                We are a consequence, to go even a little further to illustrate the point, a by product of the universe's evolutionary processes, along with all the bacteria, parasites, fish and all the rest of carbon life.
                                We invent words like god, good, evil, soul, angels, satan, etc. to add significance to our existence, but notice that none of these words describe anything that naturally exists in nature, and none of the above are proven to exist.
                                Simply because they don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                So you dare say the soul does not exist? I am sorry for you...you then must be an ugly inhumane wooden-looking unyielding klotz.

                                The word Psycho (Greek: mind, spirit, consciousness, mental processes; the human soul; breath of life); psychology is the study of the same.

                                Love, do you believe in love...because that doesn’t grow in the fields, or feelings, they don’t grow on trees, or are readily available elsewhere. You must be telling me that I then make up these words and perceptions too. If you have no psyche, you have no perception, no horizon and you can’t believe in anything that is good or bad. My psyche is my spirit that surrounds me, it is vital to me it is my mind.

                                The biblical explanation of man is that man is created in the image of God. That means man is primarily a spiritual being, not a physical one. The Bible also indicates that God’s purposes in creating man have no physical significance.

                                Passages like the ones below…

                                Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 3:9-11 and Job 1 and 2 (too long to list here).

                                Ephesians 6 12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

                                Ephesians 3 9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
                                make it clear that man is a part of something far grander and more magnificent than those things that happen in space and time. Imperfection in this physical world is far less significant if you understand that this world is not the sum total of our existence.

                                With a mindset like yours, you’ll never be able to pursue what the nature of that existence is and how we play a significant role in the battle between good and evil.

                                I bet you never red the Bible.
                                “...I may condemn what you say, but I will give my life for that you may say it”! - Voltaire

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