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    • #3
      Very interesting debate. Hagel had denominated this debate from every angle.


      • #4
        Iperson, basically Sensenbrenner was avoiding to answer the question about House opinion on temporary worker program , and Hagel was defending Senate bill. That's about it.
        You should find the way to watch it though, I found it intriging that Sensenbrenner did not give one direct answer.


        • #5
          iperson, here is a transcript:


          • #6
            What are illegal immigrants afraid of and so they won't apply for the amnesty? Losing their jobs? And why is that?
            Well, today illegals are paid way less than what Americans are. That is why illegals get hired. After legalization all workers will be paid the same, not less than the minimum wages, and there will be no incentive for businesses to favor one group over another.


            • #7
              Sometimes I wonder:

              are you guys THAT foolish or you think others are so foolish that you can pretend to be just as foolish and convince the rest too..?

              As far as Sesenbrenner vs. Hagel..
              no need to repeat: Sesenbrenner will have his way this year OR after November elections.

              The ONLY way to reverse Sesenbrenner is to LET Sesenbrenner do as he wishes.

              "Nothing can undo bad legislation more effectively than it's implementation".




              • #8
                1. It was general reflection..

                2. Thank you for spell-check.
                As you know geniuses never bother with petty details, so someone has to do it for them

                3. Restrictionists are idealists.
                Someone who has neatly calculated projections based on his wishes rather than cold and calm meditations and analysis of true facts - such person is an IDEALIST.
                The only argument against IDEALIST is REALITY.

                And nothing will speak louder and undo too punitive measures "more effectively than their rigorous implementation".

                4. Read my earlier posts:

                ImmortalE, Posted June 08, 2005 12:07 PM:

                McCain Bill won't pass even the Senate. House will simply 'tear it apart' if the like-version proposed by Gutierrez and two Republican Reps. ever, EVER comes to vote on House floor.

                However, the purpose of McCain Bill, it seems to me, is NOT to be passed in Senate, but rather to 'throw a gauntlet'.
                To finally START a debate about Immigration in Senate and House.
                Also to offset, to balance and to serve as counter-Act during
                future negotiations/debates (counter-Act to what one might expect from Tom Tancredo and his likes in the House).

                There is Immigration Reform Bill that will come from Senate, it will be introduced late this summer by US Senator John Cornyn and Kyl.
                Pay close attention to it!
                Senator Cornyn is native of Texas (as G.W. Bush)
                and CHAIRMAN of the Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship subcommittee...

                ..This being said, the major challenge, of course, will come from the House.
                And Cornyn's Bill will look as moderate, balanced way to deal with 11 million undocumented immigrants, as opposed to McCain-Kennedy Bill on one side and Tom Tancredo and his likes with whatever they might come-up with on the other side.

                Yet, there is no guarantee that the like of Cornyn's moderate Bill will pass the House anytime soon.

                --->>> I think House Reps. (including Tancredo) REAL strategy is to use Immigration issue for upcoming Congressional elections, whereas some of them (those depending on Hispanic votes most) will ,as usual, promise some legalization reform, while others, playing to the strong emotions of ultra-conservative voters, will promise to deport every single illegal alien present in US, and then, after elections they will happily throw the whole issue under the carpet once again.. until next election.. and so on..

                In the longer run, in next 4-6 years, those House Reps., I must assume, hope for some noticeable downturn in economy ( first sign of downturn: GM is laying off 25.000. Gas prices and sizes of GM cars are blamed. Question: will this start a grim trend in economy?), and if that happens then legalization and program will be off the table AUTOMATICALLY (ANY job will be a GOOD job then and Aliens will look literally as BREAD-STEALERS)..

                If that happens,then they(ultra-conservatives) can push ONLY restrcting bills, one after another, 'in increments'.
                Fine employers, restrict emergency med. care without reporting to Feds, engage Police in capturing and turning over undocumented aliens to DHS for deportation.. ask Fed. ID for purchase of food in supermarket and etc. There is so much to restrict!
                And everything can be done slowly, one by one, using funds and resourses available, yet fairly effectively,
                and with borders shut well, they hope, one way or another sizeable portion of 11 mln. undocumented will be forced out the country for good.
                So that demographic challenge (and that IS the major challenge, not the economy , stupid!), So that demographic challengecan be offset once and forever.

                But let's see how the whole thing will play out.

                Certainly there is no Nostradamuses among us, or else we would go ahead, buy a 300 million jackpot-lottery tickets, get rich and forget all the empty-trash talk of ours.. WE, I mean WE, the LITTLE GUYS who keep empty-talking and posting on this board day and night, for years already .. ))

                My take on it: just wait and see how the REAL LIFE plays out.
                Noone knows that for sure.

                But one thing is for sure: it is not going to be what those living in high skies, with idealistic/utopian minds hope it to be. <<<------


                2. ImmortalE, Posted July 08, 2005 10:17 AM

                Solving the problem is better than not solving it, and sooner is better than later.. ))

                And I also think that absurdly fantastic, too idealistic, practically unfeasible, unachievable and divorced from reality goals have little chances to succeed in the long run, in the REAL WORLD ..))


                3. ImmortalE, July 10, 2005 01:58 PM:

                Look into bigger picture. Try to see beyond your nose.

                But in closing let me tell you this story about Chengiz Khan.
                It is said that Chengiz Khan was burning and destroying anything that didn't belong to Mongols.
                One day a Chinese monk, a Taosist philosopher, has countered him, saying:
                "Why are you doing this, Chengiz Khan?
                Instead of destroying, you should keep everything to their owners (THEY, THEIR OWNERS, ARE YOUR SUBJECTS AND ALREADY BELONG TO YOU!!), and TAX THEM!!!"

                It is said that Chengiz Khan has listened to advise of Taosist monk.
                Apparently, he was a man of senses after all.

                I very much doubt that YOU have as much sense as Chengiz Khan had..))


                4. ImmortalE, Posted July 10, 2005 01:58 PM

                If my judgement doesn't fail me, if all the past and pressent patterns are to be relied upon, I would suggest that before inevitable liberalization of immigration takes place, there will be an extreme intolerance and targeted enforcement of immigration law against 'undocumenteds'.
                I repeatedly said this in past.

                It's what I would call a "wave thing".

                No argument or logic at present can persuade people like Rep. Tancredo that it is not in the interest of Public of America to do as he wishes.
                Only after millions and may be billions of dollars wasted, hundreds of thousand of immigrant families separated and detroyed, single parents and parentless US Citizen children left behind, businesses lost, hardships caused..
                only THEN there will be a loud public outcry and demand that the remaining aliens be given a chance to become a LEGAL part of this Society.

                This is what I project, based on my knowledge and analysis of past.
                As history shows, people 'en mass' never act reasonably, but always obey the physical laws of momentary nesessity..



                • #9
                  American politicians, obey their pragmatic instincts first of all. And they know, just like you or me know it that implementing just border enforcement bill will cost too much, and I mean it not only financially. This will satisfy a small group of people and the outcome of separating families and making people leave will be worse than we can imagine.
                  Chengiz Khan was an ancient Hitler, who did not care for killing his own children.... do you suggest we follow his examples? He lived over 1000 yr ago, in a land with no civilization, infact there still is no civilization there, thanks to him and his son, who put all of their efforts to create an army of kamikazes instead.


                  • #10
                    ..the outcome of separating families and making people leave will be worse than we can imagine.
                    Hm.. what a shallow pretense of irony..
                    Though you wouldn't expect better from bee-keepers..

                    Chengiz Khan was an ancient Hitler, who did not care for killing his own children.... do you suggest we follow his examples?
                    What I suggested was that AliBa has less sense than EVEN Chengiz Khan did.
                    Perhaps same applies to you (apparent from your reading comprehension skills) !


                    • #11
                      I take my words back on Chengiz Khan , I was just trying to say that your statements are way too radical. No offence though.


                      • #12
                        I am confused AF- which are your real opinions and which are others' like Immortal's (who's that?).
                        Sorry, I only joined the forum in May 06' so I can't relate to what was talked about before.
                        Buh, you are such a naive person !
                        Shshshs.. come closer..let me whisper it into your ears: rumor has it that AF is IE..

                        ..president won't sign a bill not including legalization...
                        Anything , passed twice , becomes law.

                        Reps are going to lose the House.
                        Someone please explain to me HOW COULD REPUBLICANS POSSIBLY LOSE HOUSE IN 2006???
                        In fact , with Bush Administration angering many ultra-conservatives, it is logical to expect that their electorate will turn out in huge numbers to throw out moderates like Sen. Arlen Specter and bring more of the likes of Rep. Tom Tancredo.
                        And what are Democrats angry about?
                        They may not be adoring the Bush administration to the point of extasy, but so far Bush administration has suceeded in keeping Democrats mildly dissatisfied while it is Ultra-Conservatives who boil with ferocity against administration, especially when it comes to Immigration issues.

                        And once ultra-conservatives bring more hard-liners to the House and Senate, how long do you think it would take them to pass a kind of legislation that will make HR4437 pale in comparison?


                        • #13
                          Well, then you were wrong about the Senate passing the bill, werent ya! HUH!
                          Did Senate pass Kennedy Bill?
                          Or did it pass Chairman Specter's , with Cornyn-Kyl amendment (99-0) and other amendments to Guest Worker provision - amendments which were central in stalling Senate procedures in April ?

                          Simply because Americans are fed up with the war in Iraq and failing economy..
                          They all miss Clinton good times.
                          Not true.
                          Americans, as a Nation, are still very recentful of Democrats for 1970s-1980s, much more than they are of Republican administration.
                          Clinton tried but was unable to shift the tip of the scale, despite his economic prodigies - which speaks volumes of just how upset Americans were with Democrats in past couple of decades.


                          • #14
                            Immortale-The republicans will lost the house because of the are crazy if you think the american public will go to the poll with immigration first in mind...The american public wants their boys back home and are sick and tired of american soldiers fact, im hearing that a lot of republicans are considering voting for democrats because they are more likely to schedule a pull out date for the soldiers..listen to murtha, and forgeil and many other democrats.

                            I really believe that the democrats will easily will the house if they tell the american public that they will pull out at least 50% of troops currently in iraq, by the end of 2007, and they will sweep the house and senate.


                            • #15

                              You are funnier clown than LieMaster !


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