ALL ILLEGALS WILLFULLY & MALICIOUSLY CHOSE TO BE ILLEGAL!

[ImmortalE]

Here is another point of view I would like to hear your opinions about.

1. Do you think ALL ILLEGAL Immigrants have willfully and maliciously chose to be Illegal?

If so, is it just a "general idea", a thought that appears in your mind anytime you hear words "Illegal Immigrant"?

Or did you (do you have) some first hand knowledge, experience, professional contact
with "Illegal Immigrants" that you would like to share with us?

2. Do you think US Law pprovides Legal channels
for temporary workers to come and perform unskilled work, in the numbers demanded by Market?

3.1 Do yo think it is reasonable to demand that
one parent of US Citizen and spouse of US Perm. Resident MUST leave the country and live separately from His/Her spouse/family for YEARS
before eligible to join the rest?

3.2 Do you think such family can survive?

3.3 Do you think it is National Interest of US to break and destroy the families that make up very fabric of its' Society?

3.4 Did you know that currently the LAW demands it?

3.5 Do you think it is a Just Law?

3.6 If not, do you think that Law CAN be UNJUST and
yet be put in service of Justice?

3.7 Isn't Justice what we all value above all?

3.8 If you don't value and beleive in Justice and Fairness above all, and think that Unreasonable Law has nothing to do with the flow of illegal immigrants, and should be enforced anyway, then, please unswer:

3.9 If you yourself don't value Justice and accept any kind of UNFAIR Law as long as it serves YOUR passions,
then what MORAL ground do you have to blame those who break such Law, to call them Immoral
Law Breakers?

3.10 Don't you notice there are way too many contradictions and unreasonable obstacles in the
current INA that should be Reformed in order to
fix current problems?


Please read and think of each question, and answer each one separately, explaining your position and opinion.

Thank You ALL!

[ImmortalE]

Here is another point of view I would like to hear your opinions about.

1. Do you think ALL ILLEGAL Immigrants have willfully and maliciously chose to be Illegal?

If so, is it just a "general idea", a thought that appears in your mind anytime you hear words "Illegal Immigrant"?

Or did you (do you have) some first hand knowledge, experience, professional contact
with "Illegal Immigrants" that you would like to share with us?

2. Do you think US Law pprovides Legal channels
for temporary workers to come and perform unskilled work, in the numbers demanded by Market?

3.1 Do yo think it is reasonable to demand that
one parent of US Citizen and spouse of US Perm. Resident MUST leave the country and live separately from His/Her spouse/family for YEARS
before eligible to join the rest?

3.2 Do you think such family can survive?

3.3 Do you think it is National Interest of US to break and destroy the families that make up very fabric of its' Society?

3.4 Did you know that currently the LAW demands it?

3.5 Do you think it is a Just Law?

3.6 If not, do you think that Law CAN be UNJUST and
yet be put in service of Justice?

3.7 Isn't Justice what we all value above all?

3.8 If you don't value and beleive in Justice and Fairness above all, and think that Unreasonable Law has nothing to do with the flow of illegal immigrants, and should be enforced anyway, then, please unswer:

3.9 If you yourself don't value Justice and accept any kind of UNFAIR Law as long as it serves YOUR passions,
then what MORAL ground do you have to blame those who break such Law, to call them Immoral
Law Breakers?

3.10 Don't you notice there are way too many contradictions and unreasonable obstacles in the
current INA that should be Reformed in order to
fix current problems?


Please read and think of each question, and answer each one separately, explaining your position and opinion.

Thank You ALL!

[tyminus]

Justice

1. Most people will call me illegal ,but was it my willfully and maliciously choice ?
I came here legally in 2000 under tourist visa to visit my sister (US citizen) At that time president Clinton signed bill 245i that says:
"If you get sponsored by relative or employer before 4/30/2001 you can stay inside USA until your visa number will be available "
I did what president Clinton told me to do. My visa number will be available in about 12 years. Till that time I can't get any ID, nor Driver Licence, SSN, Work Permit, and I can be deported any time.
How many hundreds of thousands like that?
2. I think it takes way too long and cost too much for unskilled workers
3. My daughter was born in US, she is 4 , should I come back to my country, and wait at last 10 years for my time? I can't afford to feed family in my country
I don't understand why government baits people giving them law like 245i You can be here but really you can't be here , you got to hide because we'll send you back to your country if we want to , and you will have 10 years ban . So you can wait here, but be scare don't drive car, don't talk to people . You won't have work permit, but we give you Tax Ident. Nr, so you can pay tax's from work you do illegally
That make sens !!!
For some sadists from United States of Ignorance

[ImmortalE]

Thank you,
both Someone12 and tyminus.

I am really interested in hearing a wide array of opinions.
From both sides.

Short note:

Someone12, we have heard all those words from you on this forum, so many times...

Therefore I created this questionnarie, in order to get very specific answers to very specific (not GENERAL) questions.

Thank you for your understanding ( and remember,
above ALL we are Human beings and can conduct our debate in Civilized way, respecting each other).

tyminus,
the same applies to you:
Let's not call anyone "sadists from United States of Ignorance.."

The set of circumstances various people find themselves in may indeed make them very angry
and intolerant of those sharing opposite point of view.

But let's for once try to rise above base instincts and emotions, and try to answer these questions together and stare into eyes of truth
without hesitation or fear.

Best wishes to ALL!

[sydbear20]

I believe the laws have good intentions, but they need much revision. Personally I have seen first hand a rather depressing situation. My friend, an American, came to Canada on a work visa she didn't know that at the time she was pregnant. She gave birth in Canada the childs father was a Canadian he didn't want anything to do with her or the child but would not sign rights away. When she tried to go home the border told her you can go but the kid stays. after going though many differnt channel she ended up having to leave her child with my family and apply for soul custody from US which took about a year. Should a child be left without his Mother because of a law that really should allow some exceptions?

[ImmortalE]

Someone12,
Life is tough, everybody knows it.

1. But is Life also IMMORAL?

2. If it IS, then do you think you have MORAL grounds to demand from others to be moral, just because it happens to serve your momentary caprice?

3. If you think that Life is NOT IMMORAL, then tell me:
how is it possible that YOU, personally, justify separation of LPR/USC Child and Immigrant-spouse families,
while thinking yourself to be MORALLY GOOD person?

Some laws are outdated and no loger serve their causes ( for example felony charge for engaging in o-ral s-ex).

Is it then right to FOREVER hunt every couple engaging in it and putting them all in jail, just because at some point it seemed to be a reasonable Law and so many people routinely break it?

YET, in case with O-ral s-ex, you could still hold your moral ground referring to Bible.

But what moral standard, what scripture of Christ are you going to refer to in the case when you defend the separation and
consequently destruction of USC Child/LPR Parent
and Immigrant spouse families?

[ImmortalE]

sydbear20:

I beleive in exceptional cases the Law must give a Judge the power of discretion.

The case you describe would probably merit such exception.

[sydbear20]

only after the father could be found and he was hiding on an indian reservation avoiding warrents. That was why he did not go to court. SO AGAIN I DONT BELIEVE ALL ILLEGALS CHOOSE TO BE!!!!!

[ImmortalE]

I Agree.

[ImmortalE]

Someone12,
no it's not simple as that.

And please don't call me a m o r o n, just because
my questions frustrate you.

Anytime someone equates "all Illegals" to "criminals" (criminals = immoral people who maliciously choose to break the law ), they must have some moral standards and factual data to rely on.

I want to know WHAT IS IT (the moral standard they rely on), I am just curious..

Take it easy..

[ImmortalE]

I see you take it rather furiosly..
and I said take it easy..))

If your opinion is strong and viable, you should be content and calm.
Why aren't you..?? )))

Next..

You bring as an example the law written in 1952.

I brought another example, the LAW(!) written much earlier, that makes it FELONY and CRIME, the engagement in O-RAL S-EX of two consenting, adult , heterose-x-ual partners( UNLIKE
the violation of Civil Immigration Laws).

If LAW is your PREMSIE, why wouldn't you cry out, just as loudly, to put in jail all CRIMINALS(!) who l-ick and kiss their partners genitalia?

And in latter case you could at least have some moral ground to justify your rhetoric.

But tell me, what moral ground do you have to justify your opinion that says IT'S OK to separate LPR spouse/USC Child from an Immigrant
Parent?

I repeat: what moral ground do you have, what moral standard you refer to, to justify such stance?

I am not asking what is written in 1952
INA. I know it very well.
Just as I know that under the Law of some States O-RAL S-EX is a REAL CRIME(!) unlike Civil Immigration Law Violation.

So, I repeat my question once again:
what MORAL ground do you have, what MORAL standard do you refer to - to justify separation of LPR spouse/USC Child from Immigrant Spouse/Parent?

If you have NO MORAL ground or NO MORAL standard to refer to, then our conversation is over,
I will be more than satisfied if you say: "I , someone12, am IMMORAL being and have NO MORAL standards to refer to other than my arbitrary passion and selfish interests!"

But in case if you DO have ANY MORAL justification to what you think, I would like to know what kind of moral concept have you developed(or know about) that I am not aware of.

Thank You!

[jmoita2]

wELL,I DONT THINK THAT ALL IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE HERE ILLEGALLY HAVE CHOSEN TO BE SO;LIFE IS FULL OF ACCIDENTS AND CONTRADICTIONS; THERE ARE PEOPLE,SUCH AS MYSELF,WHO WERE BROUGHT HERE VERY YOUNG,AND STILL HAVE NO "PAPERS". IMMIGRATION LAWS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO KEEP FAMILIES TOGETHER DO REQUIRE THAT THOSE FAMILIES BE BROKEN APART,AND YES,IN MOST CASES,IF A FAMILY MEMBER SPONSORS YOU,YOU WILL SEE YOUR WHOLE LIFE PASS YOU BY UNTILL A VISA IS AVAILABLE FOR YOU; AND WHILE YOU WAIT,YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO DRIVE AND WILL BE TREATED AS A MAJOR CRIMINAL EVERYWHERE. YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO HAVE A SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,BUT YOU CAN HAVE A "SPECIAL" TAX ID NUMBER,BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE CONSIDERED LESS THAN HUMAN,YOUR MONEY IS STILL WELCOME. LAWS SUCH AS 245I ARE A FARSE,SINCE ALL THEY DO IS FILL PEOPLE WITH FALSE HOPES AND ASPIRATIONS,MUCH LIKE WHAT PRESIDENT BUSH IS PROPOSING AS AN IMMIGRATION REFORM;IN SHORT,IT SAYS THIS:YOU CAN WORK LEGALLY FOR ABOUT 2-3 YEARS,AT THE END OF WHICH YOU WILL EITHER DEPORT YOURSELF OR WE WILL DO IT FOR YOU; WETHER YOU HAVE LIVED HERE ALL YOUR LIFE,HAVE CHILDREN HERE IS NONE OF OUR CONCERN. AND,BY THE WAY,DONT EVEN THINK YOU WILL EVER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A GREEN CARD THROUGH THIS PROGRAM,FOR THERE WILL BE NO PROVISIONS FOR IT. I THINK THAT SUCH A PROGRAM,IF EVER IMPLEMENTED,SHOULD BE PROPERLY NAMED "THE VOLUNTARY SELF-DEPORTATION ACT",FOR THAT IS WHAT IT IS. IT IS ALSO OBVIOUS THAT YOU WOULD BE INSANE TO APPLY FOR SUCH THING. IT IS ALSO VERY OMINOUS THAT EVEN SUCH A HEINOUS PROPOSAL HAS NO CHANCE OF EVER MAKING IT INTO LAW,FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY CALLS IT AN "AMNESTY" THAT REWARDS CRIMINALS. IF EVEN THIS PATHETIC PROGRAM HAS NO CHANCE,WE MIGHT DO WELL TO SHELF REAL IMMIGRATION REFORM,AT LEAST UNTILL WE HAVE A NEW PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS ALLTOGETHER;THIS SHOULDN'T BE TOO HARD,DUE TO THE BUNGLING OF THE WAR IN IRAQ,WHICH WILL BE THE UNFORTUNATE REPUBLICAN LEGACY,BUSH'S FRANKENSTEIN. AS FAR AS THIS BEING "A NATION OF LAWS", IRAQ IS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM,LET IT SPEAK FOR ITSELF. AS FAR AS THOSE WHO DENIGRATE AMERICA,I WILL JUST SAY I LOVE THIS COUNTRY,ITS THE ONLY HOME I'VE EVER KNOWN. AT TIMES,OF COURSE,I,TOO,GET ANGRY,AND FEEL LIKE AN UNLOVED STEP CHILD,WHO,INSTEAD OF LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE,ONLY GETS HATE AND REJECTION. EVEN THEN,I LOVE AND ALWAYS WILL LOVE AMERICA,REGARDLESS OF HER SHORTCOMINGS. PEACE TO ALL.

[ImmortalE]

jmoita2:

1. Please avoid unnesessary usage of caps, as it is considered to be rude.
Thank you!

2. I welcome common sense and aprreciation of reality.

Your emotions may well be overwhelming, yet I don't see how it helps you better explain your situation.

At present time the reality is SUCH that it is impossible for McCain-Kennedy Bill to gain any
broad support, in public as well as in House of Reps.

All the while Sen.Cornyn-Kyl Bill is more in touch with streams, tides and waves of REALITY, therefore has more chances to gain NESESSARY for it's passage PUBLIC SUPPORT.

Why would you want to defend impossible to pass McCain-Kennedy "Good Bill", while condemning something that would actually help overhaul and gain better control over immigration flow, securing the border,interior, screening and giving 10 mln people a chance to legally participate in the economy and then re-enter the country through legal channels, without 10 year bar?

Do you think that status quo better?

Don't you realize that real ciscumstances and
any single person's personal wishes are not the one and the same? By demanding "My way or no way!" you actually don't serve constructive ends.

Besides, whether or what will or will not pass in near future is broadly discussed under different topic ( See "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act of America" thread).

[ImmortalE] I created this questionnarie, in order to get very specific answers to very specific (not GENERAL) questions.

Thank you for your understanding ( and remember,
above ALL we are Human beings and can conduct our debate in Civilized way, respecting each other). [end quote]

P.S. For questions see O/P.

Thank You!

[ImmortalE]

S12ear Nitwit (also known as ImmortalE):

IE: You fascinate me..)))

S12: Morals have nothing to do with the fact, repeat, fact that our congress decided long ago how many immigrant visas were available in certain categories. LPRs are not, repeat, not citizens and therefore do not qualify for all of the same benefits that US citizens have. It is a legislative fact that does not depend on morals or the bible or who is giving an air start to whom. Simple, basic rule of law.

IE: Oh really? But you are little bit misleading here..)))
May be you should spend some time and study US History and Law a bit..)))

The US Constitution is FRAMED based on principles and commandments of Bible.
Though we live in Secular State, yet, founders of Nation never denied the fact that the Fundamental Law of this Nation(US Constitution) is built upon basic moral principles of Bible.
And EVERY single Law in this country MUST meet those very principles as well.

However, later on US Supreme Court ruled that Immigration and Nationality Laws are dictated by US National Interests that sometimes may overrule the Constitutional requirements.

Now, I can understand and AGREE with that.
However, tell me, how does it serve US NATIONAL interests to allow one parent to become LPR, have USC offspring, while demanding that the other spouse leave LPR wife/husband and USC child here and wait for FIVE years outside of the country until the Visa Number is available?
What family can survive this without a great damage?

Some INA Laws may not be within the strict frames of US Constitution, but are they also supposed to be against US National interests?

What US National Interests are served by separation and destruction of USC Child and LPR spouse(future USC) + Immigrant families?


S12: Now, if LPRs don't like it, they are free to move to another country. BUt Congress decides the level of legal immigration, not you, not the bible and not the genitalia of unknown persons.

IE: It is exemplary of your thought pattern, to
put me, the Bible and genitalia in the same row...))

Now, did I ever say that Congress does not decide the level of immigration?
If so, show me WHERE??

All I do is questioning..
For instance, what moral standards your intentions are based on?
And what US National interests are served by certain outdated immigration laws that tear apart and separate LPR + Alen spouse/USC Child families, and that you so zealously defend ?

[brazilianqb]

no NOT ALL ILLEGALS WILLFULLY AND MALICIOUSLY CHOOSE TO BE ILLEGAL...with me it just happend...i came when i was 5 with my mom, and she left 3 years later and i was stuck here with no way to renew my visa and now im here illegally...i didnt want to be this way but i am...