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Ronald Reagan's Birth Certificate

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  • Oh, you got the definition of legal terms mixed up. Ok, the presumption of innocence until proven guilty "by the judge or jury" as a guiding principle in jurisprudence is a world away from "prosecution's presumption that the defense is guilty BEFORE a trial!" So much so that the plaintiffs could present no any beyond-reasonable-doubt evidence to support the claim of guilt, yes, anything beyond mere presumption.

    Whereas in all of this the "fringe" and "cartoon characters" labels were not even solely attributable to the democrats - they're likewise coming from your supposedly assumed discredit-Obama allies. Hint: it must be true.

    Comment


    • Still wrong, and now really confused. There wouldn't need to be a 'beyond a reasonable doubt' since this wouldn't be a criminal trial. Not only that, guilt or innocence is not determined before TRIAL. Who's advocating that? Making it up as we go along I suppose.

      Back to cartoons. 27 million of them. hmmm
      This message brought to you by the vast right wing conspiracy.

      Comment


      • You accuse Obama of fraud and conspiracy (or even felony because he supposedly stole the seat of the president from the GOP), which are criminal offenses in grandest scale. Who presumed (presumed was the word I used, not "determined") Obama's guilt before a full trial that you continually fail to get? You birthers do, not the rest of America. Not even your conservative allies. But, on second thought, you birthers are "conservative impostors" so the alliance doesn't even exist. Not my words, their words, hence the quotes.

        Back to cartoons, don't complain to me. Save it for Joe Scarborough.

        Comment


        • According to a CNN pole, 27% of Americans have doubts about Obama's status.
          The word being doubt not fraud or conspiracy. Quite different from what you hard core Birthers accuse Obama of (without any proof).

          I see you are obviously getting ready to run for office by the use of your flawed math. 27% more closely equates to 1 in 4 not 1 in 3. "Nearly" doesn't make it become 1 in 3 LOL

          27% does not make a majority view. The only reason for it being that figure is because you Birthers keep rehashing this tired old argument (without any proof) and creating doubt in a minority of some people's minds. More commonly known as throwing mud and hoping some of it sticks.

          Before you say it, yes I know the prosecution doesn't have to prove anything BUT they do have to come up with a credible story which fits the known facts of a case. If they didn't, they won't win.

          The problem for you Birthers is there are no facts to start off with! This is why every case so far has not made it to court.

          As for the Obama Step-Grandmother argument, what she said was a result of bad translation (and you know how much of a problem that can be re: Kollerkrot):

          Salon.com
          "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

          Comment


          • Another proposed Birther Bill bites the dust...

            House panel rejects so-called birther bill

            Lawmakers have decided against asking presidential candidates who want to be on New Hampshire's primary ballot next year to produce a birth certificate.

            The House Election Law Committee voted 10-8 yesterday to reject the proposal. Supporters had also wanted to require candidates to sign an affidavit swearing they are at least 35 years old and have lived in the United States for 14 years, as called for in the U.S. Constitution to qualify for the presidency.

            State Rep. Shawn Jasper, a Hudson Republican, said he voted against the proposal because it was unnecessary and a distraction to the state's presidential primary - the earliest in the nation.

            He predicted the proposal may be back next year.

            Concordmonitor.com
            "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

            Comment


            • Even if 1 in 4 Brit. That isn't a significant number? How many millions of Americans is that and you don't think it's a significant number? You're still referring to them as fringe and cartoon characters. Wow, that's arrogance heaped upon arrogance.

              RN, It would be presented under government administrative law. The burden of proof is not, again I repeat, not at the level of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. People are found guilty of conspiracy and fraud all the time and are not incarcerated or even prosecuted criminally for it. I thought you knew better than that. I'm sorely disappointed now. The grandest scale, really? Where's the penal code entry? Let's see it.

              Survey says...It doesn't exist!

              Oops, sorry. You missed out once again. We don't have any consolation prize this time around beside the return bus ticket.
              This message brought to you by the vast right wing conspiracy.

              Comment


              • Just release the birth certificate. If he was really born in Hawaii there is no problem. But why is he spending millions to keep it "on the down low?"

                Comment


                • If you'd read back again I used a hyphenated beyond-reasonable-doubt wording as an evidence descriptor, not to be confused with the un-hyphenated beyond reasonable doubt conviction standard. I know better, I did that specifically due to your tendency to abuse and misuse other's words. Good try. Not good enough though.

                  While we're at it, look up 18 U.S.C. § 371—Conspiracy to Defraud the United States. This is what you birthers presume Obama to be doing or to have done. There, the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard has been applied in precedent cases.

                  Also 18 U.S.C. §'s 911, 1002, 1015, 1621, and perhaps, 1622 also borne out of your conspiracy theories.

                  See, these are in fact giveaway tools that you can use to elevate your fringe crusade to the next level.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by federale86:
                    Just release the birth certificate. If he was really born in Hawaii there is no problem. But why is he spending millions to keep it "on the down low?"
                    He has released his birth certificate to certain groups. And according to Davdah, that is not the real issue here.
                    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre

                    Comment


                    • This isn't hypothetical. It's real life. My 'good try' was pointing out your erroneous defense which is sustained.

                      For there to be a conspiracy there needs to be a meeting of the minds of two or more individuals. In the instant case, that hasn't been formerly laid out or alleged. Irrelevant defense statement.

                      That isn't the crux of matter. It's the type of citizenship status. 18 911 relates to a person's citizenship in whole but not concerning the detail at hand. 1002 is about getting money. 1015 doesn't encompass the detail of natural born versus otherwise. This is a case of being 'natural born' or not. Over ruled once again.


                      Hudson, if the alleged certificate has been released, why only to certain groups? And, if true, someone is lying. If hawaii vital records now claims the long form doesn't exist, what was released?
                      This message brought to you by the vast right wing conspiracy.

                      Comment


                      • Likewise, this "Obama spent millions" hoax is another birthers' fringe claim that cries out for lack of solid evidence. They confuse the legal fees that Obama paid for his legal team during the campaign. He has pro bono attorneys facing up with the birthers.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by davdah:
                          This isn't hypothetical. It's real life. My 'good try' was pointing out your erroneous defense which is sustained.

                          For there to be a conspiracy there needs to be a meeting of the minds of two or more individuals. In the instant case, that hasn't been formerly laid out or alleged. Irrelevant defense statement.

                          That isn't the crux of matter. It's the type of citizenship status. 18 911 relates to a person's citizenship in whole but not concerning the detail at hand. 1002 is about getting money. 1015 doesn't encompass the detail of natural born versus otherwise. This is a case of being 'natural born' or not. Over ruled once again.


                          ...
                          Haha! Ok, go ahead prove that in the court of law then. Natural born or not? Then it cries out as well for lack of precedence. Yeah, birthers rock 'n' roll! Maybe this will be the one!

                          Also "meeting of the minds" is not a strict requirement for a conspiracy in criminal lexicon. The essence of conspiracy is an agreement for the joint pursuit of unlawful ends. That's what your fringe claims are all about.

                          Comment


                          • Step one for an agreement is what? A meeting of the minds. Can't have an agreement without it, now can we? So, yes it is absolutely a requirement. Especially in a criminal matter where the evidence bar is highest of all. Every element for an agreement, legal or otherwise, must be present to show an agreement or conspiracy existed.
                            This message brought to you by the vast right wing conspiracy.

                            Comment


                            • Even if 1 in 4 Brit. That isn't a significant number? How many millions of Americans is that and you don't think it's a significant number?
                              Yes it is a lot of people but there is no evidence to prove he wasn't born in the USA. All it really says to me is that 27% of Americans can by easily swayed by unproven accusations.

                              The reason the GOP leadership won't denounce the Birthers is because they don't want to alienate their potential voters. Sounds a bit like Political Correctness to me.
                              "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

                              Comment


                              • RN, don't forget, Michelle Bachmann said Obama spent millions on his trip to India last year LOL

                                AC360.blogs.cnn.com
                                "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

                                Comment

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