Fearful FAIR

I attended a FAIR meeting in Manhattan. They are so worried that all these illegals will take their jobs. If you are so uneducated and incompetent that some illegal can take your job, then that is a sad commentary on your life.
They blamed illegals for every problem in the world.

They don't care about crimes that people commit to get a green card or terrorists flying planes into buildings. Ooooh the illegal might take my job ! These same people will complain that things cost too much. Immigration, legal or illegal, CREATES jobs and makes our standard of living higher. The forces of Capitalism are more powerful than whether or not people are documented. These people completely lacked compassion for illegals. Yet, where did they come from? Everyone in America came from somewhere; even the Indians.

Blame the politicans for our immigration policy, not the illegals who are just trying to survive for God's sake. Where's the compassion and the humility? Where's the love?

[Michael]

I attended a FAIR meeting in Manhattan. They are so worried that all these illegals will take their jobs. If you are so uneducated and incompetent that some illegal can take your job, then that is a sad commentary on your life.
They blamed illegals for every problem in the world.

They don't care about crimes that people commit to get a green card or terrorists flying planes into buildings. Ooooh the illegal might take my job ! These same people will complain that things cost too much. Immigration, legal or illegal, CREATES jobs and makes our standard of living higher. The forces of Capitalism are more powerful than whether or not people are documented. These people completely lacked compassion for illegals. Yet, where did they come from? Everyone in America came from somewhere; even the Indians.

Blame the politicans for our immigration policy, not the illegals who are just trying to survive for God's sake. Where's the compassion and the humility? Where's the love?

[Antifascist1]

FEAR rules the Universe..?

Actually, I share the belief of Einstein that IMAGINATION rules the Universe.

________________________________________________


"Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world".

A. Einsten

http://www.sfheart.com/einstein.html#Life

[AliBA]

Michael--Education and competence have little to do with getting a job. How do you think Dubya managed?

Most of us who work for a living are vulnerable to losing our jobs because someone else, either here or abroad, will do it more cheaply. They don't even have to be as good--as long as they meet some acceptable level FOR THE MONEY. As I recall, you've claimed to be in law school. What do you think would happen to YOUR chances of getting a job with a good firm IF the country were flooded with cut-rate lawyers from overseas?

Developing a competitive advantage by having unique skills or educational attainments is great, if it you can figure out what those unique skills and education should be. But when even the U.S. government, with all its money and resources, can't figure out what the trends of the future will be... Remember when all the displaced workers were being told they should train for IT in the 1990s?

And Michael, it sounds pretty much like you don't have a mortgage and a family depending on you. It's all right with you for illegal aliens to come to this country to support their families, but somehow shameful for Americans to worry about supporting theirs? Try taking OUR perspective on illegal immigration for a change, instead of mocking it. Where do WE get to run to, if we lose our jobs? Mexico? And cut the **** about the Native Americans--you know perfectly well that any country is ultimately made up of immigrants, people who came to it from somewhere else. Even the ancestors of the Native Americans probably crossed the land bridge from Asia.

[Engaged]

how can you compare??? its not the same to be a lawyer or a doctor and clean toilets and clean floors, and do manual labor and pick tomatoes??? People who are taking jobs such as attorneys and doctors and dentists and CPA's its because they are obviously qualified, so stop it with the BS, and those people dont make less than their american counterparts they make just as much. So how can you say that they work for less?? I can give you more than a hanful of people who are immigrants who make as much money as you.....

[AliBA]

Cut the BS yourself, Engaged. Plenty of illegal aliens these days come here on visas, overstay, and take jobs from Americans. And they're harder to detect. Last week, the LA Dept. of Water and Power was raided by ICE. Five such illegals were arrested, including one in a management position earning more than $100k per year. Is THAT a job an American won't do? IF THEY'RE HERE ILLEGALLY AND MAKING AS MUCH AS AN AMERICAN WOULD, THEN THEY'RE TAKING JOBS FROM AMERICANS. ALL THE MORE REASON TO KICK THEM OUT. They lie about their credentials and their right to work here, which would get an American fired, and they shouldn't be? For that matter, if their skills and education are so in demand by employers, AND LACKING AMONG AMERICANS, then just why couldn't they get someone to sponsor them LEGALLY?!! As for Americans not being willing to clean toilets, they're as willing as anyone else, when the money's right. My native-born Hispanic nephew was a maintenance man (janitor) for a hotel after he was laid off from a factory job. My brother started out as a janitor working part-time while he was in high school. My grandfather ended up as a janitor after he had a stroke and couldn't work in the factory. The African-American mother of a friend of mine was a cleaning lady all her life, until she retired a few years ago, with a good pension from her employer.

[Antifascist1]

AliBa,

I don't want to answer on behalf of Michael, I am sure he can do it better himself.

But I will share some of my views on it.

Michael--Education and competence have little to do with getting a job. How do you think Dubya managed?

Irrelevant to subject, written to blur the focus.
Usual trick of AliBa

Most of us who work for a living are vulnerable to losing our jobs because someone else, either here or abroad, will do it more cheaply. They don't even have to be as good--as long as they meet some acceptable level FOR THE MONEY

So, you mean Fortune 100 company would hire illiterate Mexican janitor to do a High-Skill job, as long as janitor agreed to be paid $2/HR?

BTW, if keeping High-Skill jobs for US Born is what really concerns you, then you know nothing of Macro-Economy ,and FREE Market
Economy in particular, if you think restricting BIG businessess choice of who to employ would preserve those jobs here.

In FACT BIG businessess are free and have enough resurses to relocate to places/countries where they can pay $200 month for a work worth $3000 here.
And once BIG business moves out of here, where do you think they will need those very Attorneys you mention?

Finally, and most importantly, I want to note the fact that you are misleading people with your rhetoric when you speak of big businessess unscrupulously hiring illegals at the cost of American workers.

With the single exception of Networking/Computer industry (which enjoyed short-lived boom during 90's), where else do foreigners work in such numbers that would allow you to even THINK of the threat to jobs held by Americans?
H1-B has a CAP (as of 2006) of 65.000 workers per year in a country with 300 million population, and you call it a THREAT to your job?

So, where do foreigners work most of all if there are , by some estimates, 20 millions of them while H-1b CAP is only 60K and was little over 100K during 90s'?

Yes, you got it right: foreigners EN MASSE, LARGELY, in GREATEST PROPORTION work as Unskilled laborers or else in Service industry.
They work in Agriculture, Construction, Restaurant business, they work as nannies, housekeepers, gardeners and etc.

Now, the IMPORTANT PART:
WHO IS REALLY HIRING THEM?

And here is the TRUTH:

With the exception of Agricultural Business (which is mainly in California) , the rest of the employers of foreigners are SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS ! (And even many farmers in border States, such as Arizona, are independent 'cowboys' not owners of large Agricultural Corporations).
Who is doing the Construction of the house? The large, multi-billion dollar developer or a small sub-contractor who then hires a crew of 5-6 to do one particular job(be it plumbing, roofing, siding, concrete laying or what else).
Who is running great many restaurants that hire illegal cooks, waiters, hostessess?
Yes, you guessed right, the same small business owners.
Same applies to gardeners, housekeepers and etc.
And who owns the NANNIES? What kind of BIG corporation owns millions of nannies that they can rent for $6-$8/HR?
Nobody, no corporation owns them, they just work for themselves.


AND WHO ARE THE SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS?

1. THEY ARE THE MAJOR EMPLOYERS OF US WORKFORCE ACCORDING TO STATISTICS - THEY ARE THE REAL JOB PROVIDERS IN US, not 100K/Yr paying executive or high-spec. level employers.

2. THEY ARE SMALL AND OFTEN STRUGGLE TO SURVIVE PAST 5 YEARS - MANY CAN'T BECAUSE COSTS OF RUNNING SMALL BUSINESS HIGH AND PROFIT MARGINS ARE SMALL, IF ONE IS LUCKY TO MAKE ANY PROFIT AT ALL AND STAY IN BUSINESS FOR LONG.

3. WHO ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO HURT HERE IF YOU ELIMINATE 12 MILLION WORKFORCE GRADUALLY?
ANSWER IS ONLY TOO OBVIOUS: YOU WILL HURT AND DESTROY THOSE VERY SMALL BUSINESSESS AND SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS, BECAUUSE ONCE YOU ELIMINATE THE WORKFORCE THEY CAN AFFORD, THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO MOVE THEIR OPERATIONS TO CHINA OR THAILAND OR INDIA.
AND THEY WON'T PAY SOMEONE ELSE HERE TWICE AS MUCH, BECAUSE PROFIT MARGINS ARE ALREADY VERY SMALL AND PAYING MORE WOULD MEAN WORKING FOR LOSS, NOT FOR PROFIT.
AND WHAT AN IDIOT BUSINESSMEN WOULD DO THAT?

So, what would happen to these small business owners?
Yes, they would become unemployed and out of business.
God knows how will THOSE American Citizens fare in future.
Perhaps immigrate to China in search of 30cents/Hr jobs?

And just WHY DON'T YOU TELL PEOPLE THIS SIDE OF THE STORY - A TRUE ONE?

It's all right with you for illegal aliens to come to this country to support their families, but somehow shameful for Americans to worry about supporting theirs?

You asked this question few times before you wrote this to Michael, so let me say this:
NOBODY SAYS IT'S SHAMEFUL FOR AMERICANS TO WORRY ABOUT SUPPORTING THEIR FAMILIES.
WHAT AN IDIOT SUGGESTED THIS?
In fact, read what I wrote above and think just how much YOU worry about Americans.

What I find shameful is when some , or even entire , cathegory of people is being scape-goated for some ill-advised political agenda.

In FACT, I see nothing wrong with SEALING BORDERS and DEPORTING whatever number of illegal aliens can be deported, provided that it is really in interests of American Nation and Economy, provided that everything is done without hysteria and fear-mongering, with clear understanding/vision of objectives/goals and methods of achieving the latter.

I also think that not every single illegal alien deserves to be deported.
There are some who are here because of circumstances beyound their control.
Like , for instance, those kids/young adults who were brought here illegally as children/infants.
Should they be now scapegoated and punished for the sake of "deterring" others (in leu of physically protecting borders?)
If yes, then why not devise even more effective deterrant: burn or hang few thousands of illegals in the middle of 50 major towns - and I guarantee you that there is no better detterrant or way to create tsunami of illegal alien flow from US.

But is this RIGHT way of dealing with this problem?
Is this Constitutional?
Is this in accord with what we proudly declare to be our VALUES?

cut the **** about the Native Americans--you know perfectly well that any country is ultimately made up of immigrants, people who came to it from somewhere else. Even the ancestors of the Native Americans probably crossed the land bridge from Asia.

Funny that you respond like that, since Michael has clearly stated that even Indians came here from somewhere else. It just shows that you don't read attentively what is written, you just dispute agaiunst set of arguemnts implanted in your head (I can guess where you get those "implants" from).


But aside from that I personally wonder WHY are we so self-centered when we say that every Human being on Earth had nessessarily originated in some part of Asia or Old-World and then spread around the World?
How do we know that?

What if everyone has evolved from what was ONE and later split into SIX materics, without ever migrating from one to another?

Or what if in untold ions of ages , evidence of which may still be buried so deep under the Earth than no archeologist had ever even guessed of it's existence, what if during those untold ions people have great many times migrated back and forth between continents?

Or what if all Humans , as Sid suggested, came from some Seventh continent, like Atlantida, which later disapperad?


Just WHY do we think in such LIMITED, BOXED IN ways is what puzzles me above all!


Are we, Humans, really such primitive creatures and failure of Nature who only by mistake were given more than a spine?



Best Wishes to ALL,

IE

[AliBA]

What I find shameful is when some , or even entire , cathegory of people is being scape-goated for some ill-advised political agenda.

Who's got the political agendas here? Those who have refused to enforce the laws for more than 20 years under pressure from big busines and special interest groups, including ethnic lobbies. Illegal aliens themselves, who have gone along with breaking the law as much as anyone has--and have been seeking benefits such as driver's licenses and in-state tuition, and now legal status and citizenship as a reward for their complicity.

You're acting as if illegal aliens are victims, AF, and they're active participants in all this mess.

[Antifascist1]

You're acting as if illegal aliens are victims, AF, and they're active participants in all this mess.

Do you know what you are talking about?

Did you READ my entire post before replying to just one sentence in it?

[Michael]

OK let me tell you my credentials to speak as an expert on economics.
1) New York State Conservative Party member for over 20 years
2) MBA Finance (also have a BS Physics and going for JD)
3) Economics Honor Society ("A" in every economics class I ever took)
4) Long time Member of "Foundation for Economic Education"

As an expert, illegal immigrants, per se, are NOT the problem for a capitalist economy. Large populations are not a problem for a capitalist economy. It IS a problem for a socialist economy.

We need not worry about the impact of illegals on our socialist-oriented economy, we need to shift our economy to become MORE capitalistic.

We need to allow the BEST immigrants to come here or to become legal. Our immigration system does not do that.

We need not worry that there are not enough jobs. A capitalist economy has infinite capacity to create more and more jobs at higher and higher salaries. This is the fundamentals of why America is so great and has attracted so many immigrants.

We should welcome outsourcing as an OPPORTUNITY to focus on more productive activities. Let the China man work in a factory. We Americans are thinkers ! We have achieved a level way above the factory worker.

We should weed out the criminals and terrorists from our midst and pick the best and brightest immigrants to become part of our society. We want the bravest, the smartest and the hardest working people. I do believe that some China man who risked his life to cross the Pacific is heroic. I do believe that the Philippino who struggles as an illegal to provide for their family back home is hard working. I do believe that the Indian engineer who understands the inner most workings of a computer to be smart.

Let us resolve to find a way to welcome these kinds of people. Let us resolve to eliminate and destroy the criminals and terrorists that pose an immediate danger to this great shining city on a hill called America.

God bless you, and God bless America.