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      • #4
        iperson.. Thank you for this article reporting the real facts. oh and I am looking forward to your new book .. titled ""I don't have any idea about our immigration law"

        I found Mr. Samuelson did do his homework and found it his responsibility as a journalist to report the true story and facts. Selective journalism and selective media is detrimental to all society. He absoulutely nailed it when speaking about the "guest worker" as a misnomer. I tip my hat to this gentleman.

        The article is right on. and appropriately ends with this statement. :.

        "Immigration is considered noble. People who critically examine its value or worry about its social effects are subtly considered small-minded, stupid or bigoted."

        We hear this familiar statement all to often on this board when Aliba and others point out shortcomining in immigration reform.

        This is exerpt from article. Which also goes on to explain that DEMOCRACY DOESNT WORK WELL WITHOUT GOOD INFORMATION. I agree.

        What You Don't Know About the Immigration Bill

        By Robert J. Samuelson
        Wednesday, May 31, 2006; Page A19

        The Senate passed legislation last week that Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) hailed as "the most far-reaching immigration reform in our history." You might think that the first question anyone would ask is how much it would actually increase or decrease legal immigration. But no. After the Senate approved the bill by 62 to 36, you could not find the answer in the news columns of The Post, the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. Yet the estimates do exist and are fairly startling. By rough projections, the Senate bill would double the legal immigration that would occur during the next two decades from about 20 million (under present law) to about 40 million.

        One job of journalism is to inform the public about what our political leaders are doing. In this case, we failed. The Senate bill's sponsors didn't publicize its full impact on legal immigration, and we didn't fill the void. It's safe to say that few Americans know what the bill would do because no one has told them. Indeed, I suspect that many senators who voted for the legislation don't have a clue as to the potential overall increase in immigration.

        The result is selective journalism that reflects poorly on our craft and detracts from democratic dialogue.

        P.S. Comprehension 101 classes starting in June 2006. please do us all a favor and sign up.


        • #5
          THE PLANET OF APES !

          FAIR has produced an estimate of the total population growth that would accompany mass amnesty. The shocking conclusion - America's population would add an additional 100 million residents in the next 25 years and 200 million residents by mid-century if current proposals for increasing "guest workers" and legal immigration as well as amnesty for those now here illegally were enacted. These proposals, which are being urged by President Bush and a large number of Senators, are designed to satisfy the interests of U.S. businesses who want a low-wage workforce and by ethnic advocacy groups that seek greater political clout from increased immigration by their co-ethnics.

          You can read the executive summary of our report here and the full PDF is available there as well.


          May 25, 2006

          FAIR Says Bill Senate Bill Exposes Deep Flaws In Immigration Policy Making

          Washington, DC"”The Federation for American Immigration Reform issued the following statement in the anticipation of the passage of the Senate immigration bill:

          The Senate today passed a "comprehensive immigration reform" bill that is neither comprehensive nor in any sense a true reform. This legislation -- were it enacted into law -- throws into question the legitimacy of the entire immigration system in the United States, and its formulation exposes deep flaws in the very process how immigration laws are made in this country.

          The approved bill would send the U.S. population skyrocketing towards a billion people by the close of the century -- with no analysis done of the impacts of this mass population explosion on housing, congestion, overcrowding, education, the environment and the overall quality of life. Local communities have not been consulted, and virtually no preparation has been undertaken to provide for the enormous burdens this legislation would entail. It reflects the degree to which the Senate is completely out of touch with the average American.

          Nor does the bill take any serious steps that would improve immigration enforcement -- especially in the interior. It merely continues a cycle of rewarding lawbreakers and clothing a loss of border control with the patina of legality. Rather than face the reality of today's immigration crisis, the Senate has enacted a terrible bill that once again puts the interests of the American people last. The bill's cost is staggering, the administrative burdens crushing and the consequences for the cohesion of the future American nation -- no longer bound by a common destiny of the rule of law -- are severe. FAIR will be stridently opposing any compromise with the House on this irresponsible and arrogant bit of legislating.


          And, BTW, below is some info ABOUT FAIR AND JOHN TANTON, FOUNDER OF FAIR (Couldn't agree more with 4now that "DEMOCRACY DOESNT WORK WELL WITHOUT GOOD INFORMATION"

          "The Puppeteer"
          Intelligence Reort 2002


          • #6
            yes IE

            I believe in 360 reporting. and one thing you do is bring articles and links to the forefront. this you do very well .

            excerpt from link of which I strongly agree.

            "Opinion polls consistently show that a majority of Americans believe that immigration needs to be cut below current levels, although that does not imply that they support the ideas of white supremacists or other bigots.

            "The danger is not that immigration levels are debated by Americans, but that the debate is controlled by bigots and extremists whose views are anathema to the ideals on which this country was founded"

            I strongly agree with this statement, however it does not change the facts. The chips will fall where they may.


            • #7
              As I've posted before, AF--if anyone doubts the huge number of people who would be eligible for U.S. citizenship under S.2611, all Congress has to do is CAP the number of people who can get immigrate or get green cards each year. If, as the White House claims, this would only be 8 million over the next 10 years, then why should there be any unwillingness to put this in writing as part of the law?

              Mr. Samuelson's article is right on point. The Senate didn't consider the impact on the population or the budget in drafting this bill. They're not interested in little details like that. Nor did the press (except as you might expect, Lou Dobbs) make a big deal about the population projections, or the effect on the federal budget.


              • #8
                How about an option to wait 80 years for permission to live in US ??

                Push is on for faster legal immigration (July, 2005)

                10 million live illegally in the U.S.

                Some wait 22 years for permission to live here

                CLAUDINE LoMONACO
                Tucson Citizen

                Photos by RENEE BRACAMONTE/Tucson Citizen

                Inez, who came to the U.S. 10 years ago and still has no papers, has married and raised a family here.
                About 700,000 immigrants will celebrate the birth of the United States, a country built by immigrants, for the first time today as legal residents.

                But 10 million immigrants, including 33-year-old Inez, will celebrate from the shadows because they are here illegally.

                Ambitious and buoyant, Inez came to the United States from Hermosillo, Son., to study English more than 10 years ago.

                She fell in love and married Chico, a gardener and illegal immigrant. Today, the couple have a successful business, a beautiful home and two American-born daughters. Chico finally got a green card, but Inez is still without papers.

                Inez keeps an eye out for her two daughters, playing in the family yard.
                Groups such as the Minuteman Project say illegal immigrants such as Inez are criminals and should get in line like everybody else to enter the country legally.

                But a growing number of conservatives, President Bush among them, are acknowledging that for millions of essential workers who mow our lawns, build our homes and pick our vegetables, there is no line to get in. The current immigration system is broken, they say, and must be reformed to match the country's economic and security demands.

                The Tucson Citizen's policy is to name sources whenever possible. However, to fully tell this story and serve the public's right to know, editors decided to identify Inez and her husband by first name only.

                Inez is part of the growing number of illegal immigrants in the United States, who have nearly doubled over the past 10 years to about 10.3 million people, according to the Pew Hispanic Research Center.

                Needed by U.S. economy

                Tamar Jacoby, a researcher with a conservative think tank, The Manhattan Institute, said the economy needs those workers to grow.

                "I don't come at this from the point of view of human rights or compassion," she said. "I come at it from the point of view that what's good for America and with a strong belief that we need to get control."

                To do that, the country needs to create more legal channels of immigration, she said.

                Immigrants today enter the country under two principal categories, family-based immigration and employment-based. Another group of visas allows additional workers to enter the country, but only temporarily.

                The bulk of new immigrants come in as the minor children, spouses and parents of American citizens. There is no limit for this category, and last year it accounted for nearly half a million new immigrants. The paperwork takes about a year and half to clear.

                At least another 226,000 immigrants enter through slots set aside for additional relatives of citizens and immediate family members of legal residents. Each country is allowed about 27,000 slots a year. The more requests from any given country, the longer the wait.

                Last week, the wait for a citizen to bring in an adult child from Mexico went up to 22 years. Legal residents must wait up to seven years just to bring in a spouse or child. The waits are so long, they are impractical, Jacoby said, and many people give up trying to enter legally.

                Irene Ayon Velazquez waited five years for a visa so she could visit her husband, a legal immigrant and mushroom picker in Pennsylvania. The desperate couple finally decided she would leave their village in the state of Mexico and cross into the United States illegally.

                Velazquez entered the desert east of Douglas on July 23, 2003, according to the Mexican Consulate's office in Douglas. A couple of hours later, she died of heat exposure. Her husband flew down from Pennsylvania the next day and found her body after searching a remote mountainous area all night.

                Easy to cross in 1992

                Inez's husband, Chico, crossed the Arizona border through Nogales in 1992, when it was still a relatively easy and safe matter of jumping a fence and hopping a ride to Tucson.

                He came to join his two sisters, who were legal residents. Today, his sisters are American citizens and have the right to petition for their siblings, though with the current backlog, they'd have to wait 22 years.

                Chico found work as a gardener. He was one of millions of illegal immigrants who fill low-skill jobs that few Americans take.

                There is virtually no way somebody such as Chico could have entered the country legally, said Los Angeles-based Carl Shusterman, one of the country's leading immigration lawyers.

                Of the 140,000 permanent, employment-based visas allowed each year, only 10,000 are set aside for low-skilled workers. To obtain one, an employer first must prove that he couldn't find an American to fill the position, which often takes about two years.

                After that, the employer could apply for a visa, but the current backlog runs four years. Last month, the government closed the category entirely. When it reopens, Shusterman estimated the backlog could be 10 years. Shusterman's practice most often uses the low-skilled worker visas to help families obtain legal nannies.

                During the wait, the desired employee has to stay in the foreign country.

                "What American is going to apply for a nanny that's not currently taking care of their kids?" Shusterman asked. "'My kid is 1, and by the time we get you in, he'll be 10, but we'd like to apply just in case.' It's just not going to happen."

                Bill seen as best hope

                Tucson immigration lawyer Tarik Sultan holds up the recently proposed McCain-Kennedy bill for comprehensive immigration reform as his clients' best hope.

                "I get employers in my office all the time who want to straighten out the status of their workers," said Sultan. "It's very, very frustrating. And all I do is give them a copy of the bill, and I say, 'Write your congressman and write your senator and tell them you support this bill,' and I send them on their way. Because there's really nothing that can be done."

                Much of Sultan's work focuses on temporary H1-A visas for professional workers with advanced degrees. During the computer boom in the 1990s, Congress increased the cap to 195,000. Last year, in a post-9/11, anti-immigrant climate, Congress let it slip back to 65,000. Requests filled the cap in October 2004 on the first day it was available. It set off a crisis in the high-tech industry because companies couldn't hire enough skilled workers.

                The cap on professional workers doesn't lead to illegal entry as much as it slows economic growth and encourages outsourcing, Sultan said. Employers merely keep the workers in their home countries, where they don't pay U.S. taxes and earn much less.

                A temporary worker program also exists for agricultural workers. Known as an H-2A visa, it has no cap on the number of workers it can cover, but employers say it is so bureaucratic and expensive, it's pointless. Of the estimated 800,000 to 1.2 million illegal agricultural workers in the United States, only 14,000 were granted the visas last year. Arizona farmers applied for only 324, according to the Arizona Department of Economic Security.

                The lack of a legal mechanism gives employers little choice, said Jasper Hempel, executive vice president of Western Growers, the largest agricultural trade organization in Arizona and California.

                "We know that there are undocumented workers working for us," Hempel said. "We have tried numerous times to get Americans to take these jobs in the fields. And it just doesn't work."

                In November 2004, lettuce farmers in Yuma experienced a critical shortage of workers because the U.S. Border Patrol stepped up checkpoint inspections. Western Growers' executives stepped in and requested that the Border Patrol ease off until farmers could get enough workers to make sure the multimillion-dollar crop wouldn't perish.

                For the most part, Western Growers' members don't have a problem getting labor, but they still want a legalized work force, Hempel said. The organization has been pushing for passage of a bill known as Ag-jobs, a guest worker program designed to legalize the status of farm workers.

                "We are like every other American," Hempel said. "We want to make sure that our borders are secure against terrorist and drug smugglers."

                Keeping labor costs down

                Mark Krikorian of the conservative Center for Immigration Studies believes industry argues for increased immigration as a way to keep labor costs down.

                "The idea that a huge, developed economy like ours needs to import high school dropouts from overseas to function is economic gibberish," Krikorian said.

                Contrary to Jacoby, Krikorian believes low-skilled immigrants hold America's economy back. Fewer available laborers such as Chico would drive up wages and benefits for American citizens and encourage technological innovation to transform labor-intensive low productivity, he said.

                Krikorian agreed that the family-based immigration system is broken and needs to be reformed to do away with the lengthy waits. He would limit it to spouses and minor children.

                "We ought to define what groups of people we want to let in and then let all of them in every year."

                Earning enough to survive

                In the 1990s, Chico's sisters became U.S. citizens and petitioned for their parents to join them. By that time, Chico had built a successful commercial and residential gardening business with four employees. He and Inez met in English class at Pima Community College.

                Inez had been working as a journalist in Hermosillo while finishing her undergraduate degree but was barely earning enough to survive.

                "There were times we didn't eat for days. Sometimes all we had was tortilla crumbs," she said.

                She thought studying English for a while in Tucson would help her get ahead in Mexico. But then she met Chico. They married in 1994. They bought and renovated an abandoned, dilapidated house on an otherwise nice block on the East Side. Today, the house looks new. It's artfully landscaped on the outside and bright and airy with colorful Mexican tile and rustic furniture on the inside.

                From the kitchen window, Inez can watch 9-year-old Nati and 6-year-old Itza race around a bright pink tree-house shaded by an enormous mesquite.

                Chico's parents live in a guesthouse he built in the back. He is their sole means of support.

                A couple of years ago, a Border Patrol agent arrested Chico while he was reading a newspaper in one of his pickups.

                Sultan successfully fought his deportation on the grounds that it would have caused extraordinary hardship to his legal resident parents and his two American citizen children.

                The only one in the family without papers, Inez doesn't work for fear of getting caught. Instead, she volunteers at her daughters' school, but she holds her breath every time she drives them to tennis class or approaches a red light.

                "If I slip up," she said, "if I do one thing wrong, that's it. I know I'm back at the port of Nogales."

                "Irene Ayon Velazquez waited five years for a visa so she could visit her husband, a legal immigrant and mushroom picker in Pennsylvania. The desperate couple finally decided she would leave their village in the state of Mexico and cross into the United States illegally.

                Velazquez entered the desert east of Douglas on July 23, 2003, according to the Mexican Consulate's office in Douglas. A couple of hours later, she died of heat exposure. Her husband flew down from Pennsylvania the next day and found her body after searching a remote mountainous area all night".


                Now, what kind of a donkey-hole supports this ???


                • #9

                  This is the immigration policy as it stands. those donkeys and elephants have been living in the same holes all these years.

                  Sad some of these stories are. of course. but I for one have never agreed with the backlog system. this doesnt have anything to do with illegal immigration and amnesty.

                  I 4one have always believed in trying to follow the rules. If follow the rules , then not much can go wrong, as this is why we have rules.

                  I feel bad for the couple that made a life , but their being "miserable" was a choice they made based on the the immigration policy. Unfortunately for the wife that couldnt wait, again, she didnt like the rules and decided to make her own. Tragic.

                  Is this what you are proposing???
                  Whoever wants to come to USA should just come and live. That it should not have to be employment based, marriaged based etc etc.? Please tell me , as I am curious. I have never addressed what I think the immigration reform policy should be, as it has not been a topic here as of yet. We have only been talking about policiy/ amnesty for the 12 million illegals here.

                  I agree that there can be an immigration reform for family , or even adding bewildering new categories to allow a broader base of people to come here.

                  Point is. that it is currently not the policy, and the illegals made their own laws. go home and come back in a legal way that everybody else.


                  • #10
                    4now, are you an idiot or are you a sensible, reasonable human being?

                    This is very important question you need to answer first, because if you are a human being like everyone else I would like to see you and talk to you face to face, man to man.
                    I am in NJ, at the shore, and am ready to face and talk to you in person, like two men.
                    My email is
                    I am not kidding, I will really come and talk to you, whoever you are, as long as you have a brain on your shoulders.




                    • #11
                      Darwin was but one man.

                      No need to make an idol of any human being, dead or alive.




                      • #12
                        Now, what kind of a donkey-hole supports this ???

                        The same "donkeys and elephants" ;0 that instituted these policies that have been in place for well over the past 30 years. The same donkeys and elephants you voted 4.


                        "Its not only sad but makes me lose my belief in human evolution and progress"
                        When will stupid people be eradicated by simple laws of evolution

                        Hmm guess that explains it.4crying out loud, I should have known you would believe in something as ridiculous as human evolution Please name me one... just one case of human or animal evolution. tick tock tick tock

                        Im still waiting for what you think the immigration policy should be. .....

                        Oh and Of course I am reasonable..YOu can tell that by my posts.respecting the laws is not bad thing ..or is it??? but Im still waiting to hear your immigration reform policy.. tick tock tick

                        your immigration policy too E.. course should be the same as iperson right..


                        • #13
                          I am not a "straw man" as you would wish , but I am who I am - meaning not the same as iperson or anyone else.

                          How about reasonable talk, face to face?
                          Who is hiding now?



                          • #14
                            4now is never scared, never hide.

                            Want to hear your policy according to E
                            want to hear policy according to iperson

                            not possible
                            as now I am very far away from you Solaris
                            much like a stranger in a strange land

                            Yes it is not possible that iperson is e. Eperson justs thinks like you do. same philosophies/mindset.

                            But Im still waiting for your immigration policy??? Never know.. we could be on the same planet. tick tick tock tick stillwaiting


                            • #15
                              iperson is a "straw man" and anything you say to iperson is "straw man" argument

                              But we surely are on the same planet as there is no other we know of where "h o m o sapiens" exists
                              Or do you mean that you are not "h o m o sapiens"

                              P.S. If you are not scared, then why not talk face to face?
                              Since we all share this Great Country it would make sense if we could meet , talk and solve our issues TOGETHER.


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