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JUST IN: DREAM Act Set For November 29th Vote

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  • #16
    If this bill is to be comprehensive surely it needs to include provisions to make sure it is not needed again.

    It is truly a one off so that children are not forced into this position by selfish parents.

    I do not see anything.

    PS What about those too stupid or challenged to qualify? Do not the comments apply to them?

    Comment


    • #17
      This will not solve anything. It won't fix anything, and it won't prevent anything from happening again.

      What needs to happen, but I'm afraid it never will, is for all of us to take the blinds off, to look at this for what it really is.

      This is a system that has been a victim of itself, a system that has been distorted and mangled by special interest groups, racists and haters. This is a system that obstructs legal immigration and turns a blind eye on the illegal, only to come after them later on with a vengeance and excesive punishment that only results in one thing... a MAJOR MESS.

      You have no flexibility, zero, so you can't adapt, you can't contain the flood, you can't do anything... when things get out of hand, you have an impossible choice, mass removals or amnesty.

      The law needs to change, it needs to change NOW. It needs to become a vehicle instead of a barrier, it needs to be cleansed of absurd xenophobic concepts and be based on a dynamic reality is must face head on, control and deal with.

      Comment


      • #18
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by iperson:
        It is nothing short of repulsive and despotic, just because people like 4now can dictate conditions irrespective of the Constitution, and nothing, no single law enacted by legislative bodies should supersede the Constitution. The Constitution requires due process to all persons present on the soil of the United States irrespective of immigration status. Unlawful presence is not a crime. If there is no crime, no evil intent provable esp. in cases of kids brought to the US without their consent or knowledge, then there is no punishment applicable.

        Today's laws (Patriot Act as an example) transgress, trespass and override the Constitution, which tears the fabric of this country, and degrades it.
        That is un-American. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

        Due process is a meaningful opportunity to be heard. Meaningful is a word that changes according to the penalties you face and the severity of the situation. Hence, you don't have the same "amount" of due process if you steal a candy bar than you'd have if you stole a car, for example. This has nothing to do with intent though.

        And this reminds me of the beauty of HR4437 and what was written there, criminalizing illegal presence. When you commit a crime, you're to be judged by the laws that were in place at the time the offense was committed. But that bill would have turned illegal aliens into felons in one single instance. That is called ENTRAPMENT because the offense would be a "continuing" offense, hence, you're suddenly a felon without a chance to conform by the law given the new penalties. Completely unconstitutional.

        Oh, but it was passed by the House, it wasn't supposed to make it to the final draft that came out of the Senate Judiciary but somehow some of it filtered in...

        Why all this? A political maneuver to get the votes... the votes of THE IGNORANT who call themselves American without bothering to read the very same document that grants them that privilege.

        IT'S NOTHING BUT BULL, TONS OF IT, TONS!!!! And here we are, talking about aliens like they are subhuman and an inconvenience. Let me break it to you, we're ALL HUMAN, we're ALL HERE, TOGETHER, and if you wanna solve it then it's time to stop the hate and for once, think about the country first and not your own selfish goals. THAT is patriotism, not shouting "deport them all" without bothering to check what that would do to the nation as a whole.

        Comment


        • #19
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
          Realistic and reasonable because YOU don't have to do it. Because in your reality, that seems reasonable. But the law won't apply to you, the law will apply to lots of people you simply DO NOT KNOW.

          Unamerican to the bone. Did you forget what happened here? All men are created equal. Remember that? What happened to the pursuit of happiness? Why are kids blamed for what they didn't do? That is unamerican.

          This mess is happening now because of laws that were designed to please certain groups, not to solve a problem. The result is a law that lacks flexibility, a law that's designed to impede immigration instead of channeling immigration in a way that's beneficial to the United States.

          A lot of provisions of INA violate due process. It's not my call, it's the opinion of the court. Several challenges have resulted in portions of INA being invalidated. So, you're telling me Congressmen didn't know the constitution? Of course they do know it, but they do not care, when the law falls it'll be the Court's fault! Nothing like saying "judicial activism" to make yourself look good.

          You want to apply those measures. Great. Then make the PARENTS do the service, make the PARENTS enlist and fight. Leave the kids alone, they didn't so anything but what they were supposed to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


          Yea.. That is fine, let the parents volunteer to enlist for 4 years active military for one kid to get a greencard. Another 4 years for the next illegal kid to get greencard. Im cool with that. When they complete the service, the illegal child sponsered from the military service can get legal. Make the parent legal too if he files 4 years active military service.

          But I know you dont really want that either, you just want amnesty given to all here. That is irresponsible and unamerican.

          Comment


          • #20
            Nope. I believe in community service because it teaches them to integrate and be considerate of others, even if that has to be taught the hard way.

            I believe the parents should also pay a fine, to help reimburse the costs.

            But I don't believe in blaming the kids.

            HOWEVER... that said, you have to consider this seriously.

            Again, if the parents say no, the kids are already here, so what now? Blame them by deporting them even if they want to stay?

            It's not as straight forward as you think, 4now, the danger here is creating some half-a$$ed bill that will solve nothing.

            I don't believe in Amnesty, but I do believe that you have to deal with things in a realistic way, or you're bound to repeat the mistakes of the past.

            Comment


            • #21
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
              Nope. I believe in community service because it teaches them to integrate and be considerate of others, even if that has to be taught the hard way.

              I believe the parents should also pay a fine, to help reimburse the costs.

              But I don't believe in blaming the kids.

              HOWEVER... that said, you have to consider this seriously.

              Again, if the parents say no, the kids are already here, so what now? Blame them by deporting them even if they want to stay?

              It's not as straight forward as you think, 4now, the danger here is creating some half-a$$ed bill that will solve nothing.

              I don't believe in Amnesty, but I do believe that you have to deal with things in a realistic way, or you're bound to repeat the mistakes of the past. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

              If the parents say no then what? It would be typical of them. Demand to be made citizens, and expect greencard for nothing.

              this so called dangerous half arsed bill is creating a solution for illegal presence. It will solve something. It solves illegal presence and creates an opportunity to get an education for free if they desire, all for the low cost of 4 years military service which should be perceived as an honor according to america. You perceive it as punishment, so I guess you are not american

              Comment


              • #22
                guys i have to go.
                can we contain this to one thread now, because points are not being addressed and somne points are being lost and not answered because of the two or three threads.

                have a good night.

                Good discussion btw

                Comment


                • #23
                  Let's hope it passes. This is a good bill!
                  Always interested in the H1-B visa, the Eb-5 Visa Program and other Eb5 Investor Visa related issues.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    At least it'd be a first step towards a more comprehensive reform plan.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Houston, I've said it before about 4now, he really doesn't seem to want a solution so he proposes solutions that he knows won't work. I agree with you, the parents are to blame not the kids. Why make the kids suffer because of it?
                      "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brit4064:
                        Houston, I've said it before about 4now, he really doesn't seem to want a solution so he proposes solutions that he knows won't work. I agree with you, the parents are to blame not the kids. Why make the kids suffer because of it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        I have given you viable solutions for the illegal parents. You say no because it is not a giveaway or freebie . Actual back taxes have to be paid and a solution for the on going migration stopped. You do not want a solution for the illegal migration which will actually solve the problem.

                        4 yrs active duty in military is definitely a viable solution. You are not interested , because you want freebie for greencard. You do not offer any solution for the illegal parent that you think should pay. ok. well how about 1k a year penalty for every illegal year the kid has been here attached to the current dream act to be paid by the parents. Minimum id 10 yrs/. How about that? No greencard until amount paid in full. 4yr degree no bul.**** 2 yr degree where the next 2 will be eligible for pell grants and other fed help.


                        I give you solutions that help them and help us. You are not interested, as you want freebies using taxpayer dollars only to put these illegal kids in competition with american citizen students and legal residents.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          No 4now, your actual back-taxes plan is not viable. It won't work the way you think it will. It will be nearly impossible to accurately calculate what an illegal owes down to the last cent. It will in practice rely on what the illegal tells them how long they have been here which of course is likely to be less than it really is. Tying up government employees spending hours to find every last paycheck/rent/bills from the illegal will simply put up taxes for us all. It also assumes that the illegal hasn't paid taxes at all. What about employers who have withheld taxes as required by law?

                          Even if such an idea became law, what happens if the illegal is charged with owing ten of thousands in back-taxes? If the parents can't pay what then? Do you deny and deport all of them? How's that fair to the kids?

                          4yrs active military service. Why active? That still punishes the kid, not the parents. Why should they die to prove to you their allegiance to the USA? LPRs becoming USC's don't have to.

                          Getting the parents to pay for their child might work but there's always a chance they won't or can't pay. Now what? Do you deny the kid whose not at fault for crossing the border and send them back or what?

                          I still maintain a far simpler and workable solution is a fixed rate penalty fee in return for back-of-the-line PR.
                          "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brit4064:
                            No 4now, your actual back-taxes plan is not viable. It won't work the way you think it will. It will be nearly impossible to accurately calculate what an illegal owes down to the last cent.


                            <span class="ev_code_RED">Yes it will work the way I have planned it. AS you recall, it is not working on a per person basis. It is a reasonable amount of income that will be attached to the illegal. If the illegal can prove that he has met those tax liabilities, then the amount would be reduced. This is not difficult to verify. AS in previous cases in the past, yes length of time here will be verified, and scouts honor in the hands of liars will not be used.</span>

                            It will in practice rely on what the illegal tells them how long they have been here which of course is likely to be less than it really is. Tying up government employees spending hours to find every last paycheck/rent/bills from the illegal will simply put up taxes for us all.

                            <span class="ev_code_RED">See above. scouts honor will not be used. AS in past instances, all will be verified to combat fraud.</span>

                            Even if such an idea became law, what happens if the illegal is charged with owing ten of thousands in back-taxes? If the parents can't pay what then?



                            <span class="ev_code_RED">YOu know what will happen. bye bye. It is not a matter of cant pay, it is they will not want to pay. Well I dont like to pay taxes either, but I have to. If they dont want to pay, then they have to go, otherwise give us all a tax amnesty too.</span>

                            Do you deny and deport all of them? How's that fair to the kids?

                            <span class="ev_code_RED">Fair or unfair is not relatve. If they cannot pay, then there is no way, unless of course you or others here wish to donate the money out of their own pocket to the parent so their illegal kid can stay.</span>

                            4yrs active military service. Why active? That still punishes the kid, not the parents.



                            <span class="ev_code_RED">Why not? ok.. explain joining the military is not punishment, but active duty is punishment?</span> Why should they die to prove to you their allegiance to the USA?

                            <span class="ev_code_RED">What better way to prove through active duty,This is where the need is. Yes they are the replacement team to do the job that americans dont want to do.</span>
                            LPRs becoming USC's don't have to.

                            <span class="ev_code_RED">


                            Last I checked, lpr is not an illegal seeking to get a greencard. But lpr seeking to become as usc must pledge allegiance.. but I guess to you, this just means lip service, not the real deal of going to active duty.
                            And, uh.. yes lpr & citizens do so proving by the amount of lpr and citizens that are in active duty fighting for this country. But I guess that is ok, you want some fake lip service from sons and daughters of liars to just say they are willing. Test that metal and I bet you get tiny percentage.</span>

                            Getting the parents to pay for their child might work but there's always a chance they won't or can't pay. Now what?


                            <span class="ev_code_RED">There is no now what. They signed the contract deal, if they renig, then there is the door, their kid does not get a green card for free.</span>
                            Do you deny the kid whose not at fault for crossing the border and send them back or what?

                            <span class="ev_code_RED">Yes if their parents dont pay, of course. Once again their parents have lied or not complied for their kids. It is not the usa fault either, nor our taxpayer's obligation to pay for them, AND put them into the competiton with our legal residents for jobs and schooling and financial aid.</span>

                            I still maintain a far simpler and workable solution is a fixed rate penalty fee in return for back-of-the-line PR.


                            <span class="ev_code_RED">What is the fixed rate fee you have in mind? What is this back of the line pr plan?</span>

                            </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The DREAM Act is nothing more than a silent amnesty...if the college bound illegal's parents are not required to pay back all the public money they stole educating their illegal brats in public school, aren't required to pay at the very least back taxes or, are not required to be deported forever in exchange for their illegal brat's eventual green card, then no penalty has been paid, and thus any new status awarded these lowlifes will only encourage more illegals to show up here to do the same....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What is the fixed rate fee you have in mind? What is this back of the line pr plan? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                I say set a penalty fee of say $8000 per person (who is going to become legal), payable in full before any processing of interim benefits takes place. Why this amount? Because it is a realistic amount to pay in full. Setting full back-tax payments of $20+k or more is not realistic to pay off immediately. There's no need for payment plans, minimal processing time (done by existing bureaucratic systems, maybe by USCIS itself) and the biggest plus, immediate funds to the US Government. $8000 x 11 million = $8.8bn in instant revenue. Enough to offset Stimulus Bill Act.

                                Back-of-the-line plan means exactly that. No queue jumping. Once penalty fee has been paid and the processing begins, interim benefits such an EAD would be issued. A wait of say 3 years before applying for PR status and then the usual 5 years as an LPR before applying for Citizenship. So a total of 8 years before Citizenship is possible. That's pretty much what what the 2007 proposed Bill was.
                                "What you see in the photograph isn't what you saw at the time. The real skill of photography is organized visual lying."

                                Comment

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