JUST IN: DREAM Act Set For November 29th Vote

[HS News]

http://www.hispanicallyspeakin...mber-29th-vote/3030/

[HS News]

http://www.hispanicallyspeakin...mber-29th-vote/3030/

[OldE]

Why November 29th, why don't they wait until January 2011 ?

[4now]

Say no to dream act as it stands proposed.

Dream act should be 4 years military service active duty /deployed.

After 4 years duty, then they can get greencard and attend college on gi bill.

let there be an entrance fee into this special admission to the military paid for by the illegal parents

[Houston]

I wonder why you want to be so harsh on kids who just did what every kid is supposed to do, that is obeying the parents.

I mean, you want to really punish a person who did nothing wrong and risk their lives for something they had no say over? Where's common sense on that?

So, if a person commits murder, then it'd be ok for the government to imprison the child until the parent surrenders? That is asinine, third world country style.

[4now]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
I wonder why you want to be so harsh on kids who just did what every kid is supposed to do, that is obeying the parents.

I mean, you want to really punish a person who did nothing wrong and risk their lives for something they had no say over? Where's common sense on that?

So, if a person commits murder, then it'd be ok for the government to imprison the child until the parent surrenders? That is asinine, third world country style. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what are you calling harsh? Do you think 4 years military service active duty is harsh? Opportunity to fight for your alledged country is harsh? Pls clarify

They have absolutely no basis for a greencard. So they have to earn it. What better way for them to earn it and show their alliegence.

[Houston]

Isn't it harsh to you? Ok, you want people to be forced into the military as a way to solve their immigration problem. You demand deployment.

Very well. People who do this, those who enlist, do so voluntarily, they know the risks and the benefits. But what you propose here makes no sense, you want them to enlist and risk their lives to solve a problem they're not responsible for to begin with?

Isn't that harsh? I mean, sure, those kids are aliens but last I checked they're also human beings, you know? Like you, me and those in Congress.

You know what this reminds me of? When people steal somebody's ID, does the victim have to pay? It's enough they have to go through all the mess to get their lives back, but on top of that, you want them to pay too for what somebody else did? Let's be fair here.

[4now]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
Isn't it harsh to you? Ok, you want people to be forced into the military as a way to solve their immigration problem. You demand deployment.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Nobody is going to be forced into the miltary. It will be a program available to those who wish to get a greencard and have path to citizenship. 4 years active duty is requirement of the program. Nobody will force them into college either after completion, but the GI bill is available to those who wish to take advantage of it.</span>

Very well. People who do this, those who enlist, do so voluntarily, they know the risks and the benefits. But what you propose here makes no sense, you want them to enlist and risk their lives to solve a problem they're not responsible for to begin with?

<span class="ev_code_RED">yes. What better way to show loyalty to a country that you want to give you a free greencard and education. They may not be responsible for the problem, but this is a solution. Why would they have a problem risking their lives for a country that they want to give them a free greencard? You make no sense in suggesting that they should not risk their lives for this country. americans do everyday. </span>

Isn't that harsh? I mean, sure, those kids are aliens but last I checked they're also human beings, you know? Like you, me and those in Congress.


<span class="ev_code_RED">Again, please tell how is 4yrs military harsh? our kids ,you me, whoever are human, and do we not pledge to fight for our country? yes we do, and what better way of showing that they are commited to this country if they want a greencard to enjoy the benefits and citizenship. I bet 95 percent will say hell no we wont go, i want a free greencard. Put it to the test.</span>

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Houston]

4Now, this is not about allegience to the country. In fact, any sort of legalization program offered should include that oath.

For example, would community service for 4 years be enough to you? Why not? Not dramatic or risky enough? Why do you have to make a person face death as a mechanism to solve a problem they didn't create? I can't understand that logic.

Oh, and one more question... what do you plan to do with the parents?

I'm gonna quote Lincoln to you. He said that any person willing to give his life for this country is deserving of the full benefits of citizenship. But you don't want to give them that, but a greencard. You fight 4 years for the United States, get your parents deported and you're next whenever they can build some case against you. That's a raw deal if I ever saw one.

That's why LPRS who serve can naturalize so quickly, you're demanding a lot to give them so little.. remember one thing, it's NOT THEIR FAULT and like it or not, those kids are already assimilated into the American fabric.

[4now]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
4Now, this is not about allegience to the country. In fact, any sort of legalization program offered should include that oath.

<span class="ev_code_RED">lip service you mean. Put money where mouth is. This is the oath. show it</span>

For example, would community service for 4 years be enough to you?


<span class="ev_code_RED">NO. because community service programs are riddled with fraud.</span>
Why not? Not dramatic or risky enough?

<span class="ev_code_RED">fraud and more fraud. that is why</span>
Why do you have to make a person face death as a mechanism to solve a problem they didn't create? I can't understand that logic.


<span class="ev_code_red">So in other words, what you are saying is the 2 years military service of current dream act should be some community service type bul.lcrap to easily gain the greencard, while the homegrown citizens and legal residents are placed in harms way for the usa.

our kids are risking life and death everyday. why not these kids who are asking for a greencard and college education with no commitment.

listen to yourself. you say put them in the military is ok, but dont make them face death like our kids do. This is the face of shamnesty.</span>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Houston]

And I will add more.

I got a feeling this is aimed not at solving a problem and restore some fairness to the process. This is about creating a mechanism so restrictive that nobody will benefit from it. Dead on arrival, sort of speaking.

A lot of the immigration bills that were considered were like this too. One in particular, made it a crime to obtain employment without authorization while demanding aliens to be employed to seek legalization. There you go, a closed loop, to be eligible you had to become ineligible too. Tricks, they're not gonna solve anything but make a problem worse.

This should be about a REALISTIC solution to deal with a very sad problem. Thousands and thousands of kids are now paying a price they never were aware of because of the actions of their parents many, many years ago. That alone is un-American, and you should know that.

[Houston]

EXPLAIN TO ME THE FOLLOWING:

Why should they face any trouble in getting a greencard? WHY?

They are here not because of their choice. They have done what any good kid should do, go to school and study. They have assimilated into the community, speak English, are willing to take an oath of allegiance... What's the big problem?

Lip service? So, the same oath that made Washington a citizen, his own device, is that lip service?

I mean, yeah, I know the kids are foreigners, but give me a break here, that doesn't make them intrinsically bad or evil.

What's the difference between a kid who's brought here by the parents when she or he was 1 and the little brother or sister that was born here right after entry? Same parents, same background, same culture. Neither of them decided where to be born or how to go about things, they just did what they were told like any other kid. The 14th Amendment is designed to stop slavery, by declaring every person a citizen, but now you get this little loophole. Oh, I know, eliminate the 14th amendment, right? Sure, you do that and you'll immediately have a system of inequalities ripe for abuse.

So much weight on the character of a person cannot be placed upon a mere chance, meaning your place of birth. Was Alexander Hamilton a "lower" founding father? He wasn't born here, he wasn't even raised here for the most part. So, he was some sort of dumb individual just trying to scam... WRONG, obviously. Einstein? How about him? He wrote the letter to FDR that resulted in the Manhattan project, it was his science they used... But he wasn't born here either!

All this hate against immigrants and foreigners, nobody seems to remember that if it wasn't for the French you'd be singing God Save the Queen now. Oh but that doesn't matter. The KKK, a TERRORIST GROUP, talks about nuking every country that's not white, but they forget nukes come from Einstein, an immigrant person of jewish faith, and others like Fermi and Teller.

People demonize Mexico, they want to build a fence because of terrorism.. you know, it's about national security... But the one terrorist who jumped the border did so at the canadian line. National security or color of skin? Then that comment I saw about Poland.. Ignorance to the extreme. Copernicus? He came from there. Deal with that. Then there's the stuff about kids, students... 50% of PhD students are foreign born, lots of them chinese, and now China wants them back. The result? This country is falling behind BIG TIME. If you REALLY care about the U.S., you'd look for solutions that will benefit the nation. Reality is different, this is an EXCUSE for people to have at immigrants, the new "blacks", the new target.



To me, it's absurd, this entire thing is absurd. Being an american is not about place of birth, it's about what you stand for. Not the same as being a USC. Those kids are as american as apple pie, that, by the way, came from Germany.

[Houston]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by iperson:
It amazes me the lack of any human empathy on the part of 4now.
Do you 4now propose that all undocumented women enlist to military service as well? If not, what proposals would you have for female immigrants? Fill America's brothels maybe or force them into labor camps of some sort. Inquiring minds want to know.

Unlawful stay in this country is "mala prohibita", a violation of a regulation requiring no evil intent or deprived conduct. Unlawful stay is not mala in se but mala prohibita... there's no evil, deprived conduct involved, but a violation of required documentation.

There's a clear discrepancy between the 'crime', which unlawful presence is not (it is not CIMT). And the harsh punishment for such proposed by 4now, both not matching each other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's no crime, unlawful stay here is not a crime. The crime is unlawful entry, and that is divisible....

What you see here is an attempt to create a system that's harsh, drastic but NOT because it's the right thing to do but in a clear attempt to please the crowd... Watch them suffer, watch them die for their food, happy now? Ok, now is it ok to give them a greencard?

This is REPULSIVE, and it's based on an idea to blame the kids for what the parents did. That is DESPOTIC.

[4now]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
EXPLAIN TO ME THE FOLLOWING:

Why should they face any trouble in getting a greencard? WHY?


<span class="ev_code_RED">Why should they get a greencard for no reason. What is the basis of them getting a greencard? Every body has a basis for getting a greencard. Family based, employed based, asylum, refugee . What is their basis...NONE.
So we have to create a basis for them to receive the greencard. It will be realistic and reasonable.

4years military active duty is not reasonable? It certainly is realistic in the eyes of most americans. It is a sacrifice of a person's life for 4 years to do service for the country that they have and will pledge allegience to. That is the basis of the greencard. military. I dont know of any category in uscis that says get green card for free with no basis.



However, I am open to hearing what type of community service you are proposing and for how long. Keep in mind that green card would be obtained after the service was completed and verified.
</span>


They are here not because of their choice. They have done what any good kid should do, go to school and study. They have assimilated into the community, speak English, are willing to take an oath of allegiance... What's the big problem?


<span class="ev_code_RED">They were FORCED to go to school, and had no choice but to learn english. Taking an oath is lip service. Is 4 years such a big deal or problem?</span>

Lip service? So, the same oath that made Washington a citizen, his own device, is that lip service?

<span class="ev_code_RED">He did military service, did he not?</span>

I mean, yeah, I know the kids are foreigners, but give me a break here, that doesn't make them intrinsically bad or evil.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Who said they are bad or evil? Is serving in the military considered bad or evil punishment now? I thought it was considered an honor to serve your country. They should be honored to serve this country as their basis in order to obtain the greencard. </span>

I got a feeling this is aimed not at solving a problem and restore some fairness to the process. This is about creating a mechanism so restrictive that nobody will benefit from it. Dead on arrival, sort of speaking.


<span class="ev_code_RED">Baloney. Restrictive? Here is a solution to get your greencard and be legal on path to citizenship. 4 years military active duty. We will thank you for your service in honoring your new found country, and we will be happy to reward you with the GI bill for education benefits if you so desire. This is a problem</span>

This should be about a REALISTIC solution to deal with a very sad problem. Thousands and thousands of kids are now paying a price they never were aware of because of the actions of their parents many, many years ago. That alone is un-American, and you should know that.


<span class="ev_code_RED">Cut the un american bul.lcra,p. I know that it is not un american as you say. Our immigratrion laws have a basis. We cannot give these illegal kids a free greencard. That would be unamerican. We are being american by offering them opportunity to become legal. The 4 years active military is realistic and reasonable and american. Even the current bill proposed will not allow All of these kids to get a greencard. It is not their fault, but it is not usa fault either. USa would be offering a fair and reasonable solution in exchange for a greencard. IF it is not worth risking their life for tihs country to obtain, then I do not feel they are worthy of getting a card . Let them marry, apply for f1, or some other means that carries a basis to get their greencard then. </span>



</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Houston]

Realistic and reasonable because YOU don't have to do it. Because in your reality, that seems reasonable. But the law won't apply to you, the law will apply to lots of people you simply DO NOT KNOW.

Unamerican to the bone. Did you forget what happened here? All men are created equal. Remember that? What happened to the pursuit of happiness? Why are kids blamed for what they didn't do? That is unamerican.

This mess is happening now because of laws that were designed to please certain groups, not to solve a problem. The result is a law that lacks flexibility, a law that's designed to impede immigration instead of channeling immigration in a way that's beneficial to the United States.

A lot of provisions of INA violate due process. It's not my call, it's the opinion of the court. Several challenges have resulted in portions of INA being invalidated. So, you're telling me Congressmen didn't know the constitution? Of course they do know it, but they do not care, when the law falls it'll be the Court's fault! Nothing like saying "judicial activism" to make yourself look good.

You want to apply those measures. Great. Then make the PARENTS do the service, make the PARENTS enlist and fight. Leave the kids alone, they didn't so anything but what they were supposed to do.