Not all illegals are criminals

[Jeff]

You can either choose to abide by US law, or not. If you don't, there are consequences.

Illegal aliens are criminals that have not abided by US law.

[ProudUSC]

<span class="ev_code_RED">Here are some views from the opposite side of the coin. Always love a good debate!</span>

Are Illegal Immigrants Criminals? Not!

by Ken Schoolland, Posted July 15, 2005

I hear it from some of the nicest people one would ever meet. Some dear friends of mine, whom I respect very much, say that all illegal immigrants are criminals because they broke the laws that control who may come into this country. And since these immigrants are criminals, we don't want that kind of person here.

Such accusations confuse what is legal with what is moral. American history is filled with people who broke unjust laws and were morally justified in doing so.

The American Revolution was fought by men and women who broke the laws of England and of King George III. Had they been arrested, they would have been hanged for treason to the Crown. If breaking the law makes one a criminal, then the Founding Fathers were all criminals. But no one still believes that today.

Dred Scott and thousands of other slaves defied the Fugitive Slave Act and ran away, "stealing themselves" from Southern plantation masters in the early and mid 1800s. Those who were arrested were returned to their slave "owners," and anyone found trying to help them escape to Canada was prosecuted as well.

Many juries exercised jury nullification. Declaring that the law was unjust, juries often refused to convict participants in the Underground Railroad. No one today would claim that a runaway slave was a criminal.

In the 1930s there were hundreds of Jews who came to American shores aboard the SS St. Louis, forcibly rejected under the guise of immigration quotas, many of whom ultimately perished in Hitler's concentration camps. Countless potential immigrants watched in desperate disappointment.

But suppose those passengers had defied immigration law and jumped ship in Miami harbor. Would anyone today call them criminals? I think not. Indeed, those who returned Jews to their persecutors might be considered guilty of collaborating with villainy "” albeit legal villainy.


Treasures of the earth

It may be illegal for people to seek freedom and opportunity in this country, but it isn't immoral. I admire the courage of immigrants who leave all that is familiar to them, risking life and limb on stormy seas and deadly deserts, in order to move to a strange land where everything is unfamiliar and potentially hostile.

Most of our ancestors moved for freedom and opportunity, and we are the beneficiaries. Thank God they weren't arrested and sent packing, as were violators of the Chinese Exclusion Act. Indeed, we might wonder whether we could have mustered the same measure of courage if we had been in their shoes.

In the first case, many immigrants are great entrepreneurs who offer jobs to Americans. Other immigrants take jobs, but they never "take" jobs that are not willingly offered to them by eager employers.

I often ask audiences, "Suppose you are an employer and you know only one thing about two job applicants in front of you: one is native-born and the other is an immigrant. Whom would you expect to be the harder worker?" Audiences overwhelmingly favor the immigrant. Why? Americans are surely good workers. But the very act of migration is seen as proof of vigor, ambition, determination, and courageous self-reliance.

Americans have a moral right to make these choices for themselves "” as employees and as employers. Says Robert W. Tracinski, a senior writer for the Ayn Rand Institute,

The irrational premise behind our nation's immigration laws is that a native-born American has a "right" to a particular job, not because he has earned it, but because he was born here. To this "right," the law sacrifices the employer's right to hire the best employees "” and the immigrant's right to take a job that he deserves. To put it succinctly, initiative and productiveness are sacrificed to sloth and inertia.

The "American dream" is essentially the freedom of each individual to rise as far as his abilities take him. The opponents of immigration, however, want to repudiate that vision by turning America into a privileged preserve for those who want the law to set aside jobs for them "” jobs they cannot freely earn through their own efforts.... Any immigrant who wants to come to America in search of a better life should be let in "” and any employer who wants to hire him should be free to do so.
To the legalist, however, who places law above moral right, the employer who hires as he pleases is a criminal. The legalist wants stricter penalties against employers who defy state mandates on hiring. He fails to see that violations of certain laws can be illegal but not immoral.


Welfare magnet?

But what of the immigrant who takes welfare? Isn't this a burden on society that must be stopped?

Yes, it is. But politically powerless newcomers are no more responsible for the welfare system in this country than they are responsible for the tyranny and corruption in the country that they are fleeing. Okay, stop the flow of welfare, but at the same time remove the plethora of (anti-)labor laws that make it difficult for newcomers to be hired.

It is wrong to assume that most immigrants come to America to get on the welfare gravy train. If this were true, then immigrants would be moving away from states with the lowest welfare and into states with the highest welfare.

My research (The Journal of Private Enterprise, spring 2004) demonstrates that the opposite is true. In overwhelming numbers, both the native-born population and the foreign-born population through the decade of the 1990s moved away from states with the highest welfare and into states with the lowest welfare. While there are some high-profile exceptions, most immigrants seek opportunity, not welfare.

The brilliant economist Julian Simon demonstrated that immigrants are a great source of productivity and economic growth. They always have been.


Moral principles

Governments do not decide morality. Governments behave morally when upholding moral action and behave immorally when suppressing moral action. Morality is based on principles far more constant and profound than the variant whims of majority votes.

The people who understood this best were those rebels who defied the law of the day to pen these words:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
To George Washington this meant,

The bosom of America is open to receive not only the opulent and respectable stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all nations and religions, whom we should welcome to a participation of all our rights and privileges.
Ken Schoolland is an associate professor of economics and political science at Hawaii Pacific University and a member of the board of directors for the International Society for Individual Liberty.

[Jeff]

Merely 'being' in the US illegally is not a crime per se but the entrance or the misrepresentation is.

The entrance or misrepresentaion conduct preceeds "being" in the US illegally. Therefore you are a criminal (but not a convicted criminal)

A bank robber (meaning you've already committed the criminal act) preceeds being a bank robber. Therefore you are a criminal (but not a convicted criminal)

[SonofMichael]

There are 2 seperate issues here. The act of entering the US without inspection (EWI)or overstaying are crimes (immigration violations and misdemeanors; can also be a felony if fraud). Merely 'being' in the US illegally is not a crime per se but the entrance or the misrepresentation is.

[Jeff]

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.

SEE ALSO:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...tle=8&sec=1325

In civil law, there are two parties. One of the parties has been wronged by the other party. If this happens, the wronged party has the right to recourse in a court of law. The purpose of recourse is to create a situation similar to the one that existed before the wrong occurred.

In criminal law, there are also two parties. The wrongdoer, the accused or offender, and the victim. Criminal offenses are seen as actions against public interest. Therefore, it is in the interest of the state to prosecute criminal offenders. The purpose of punishment is twofold: it is a deterrent for others to act in a criminal manner, it is also intended as a form of rehabilitation.

[whknapp]

Living illegally in the USA is a CIVIL OFFENSE, not a CRIME.

Defining the Terminology

Illegal Immigrant: Someone present in the country without authorization. People considered illegal immigrants can enter the United States in two ways: either by sneaking across the border, or by entering the country legally under a temporary visa but then failing to leave once their visa expires.

Legal Implications: Living in the United States illegally -- either by sneaking in or by overstaying a visa -- is a violation under the civil code, not the criminal code. However, illegal immigrants can be incarcerated as part of the deportation process. Sneaking across the border is currently a criminal misdemeanor that can result in six months in prison. Immigration legislation passed by the U.S. House in December would make it a felony to live in the United States without authorization.

( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5303676 )

Q: Should overstaying a visa be considered a federal crime (vs. a civil offense)?

General Reference (not clearly pro or con)

The Congressional Research Service (CRS), in an 04/06/06 report entitled "Immigration Enforcement Within the United States," offered the following:

"The INA [Immigration and Nationality Act] includes both criminal and civil components, providing both for criminal charges (e.g., alien smuggling, which is prosecuted in the federal courts) and for civil violations (e.g., lack of legal status, which may lead to removal through a separate administrative system in the Department of Justice). Being illegally present in the U.S. has always been a civil, not criminal, violation of the INA, and subsequent deportation and associated administrative processes are civil proceedings. For instance, a lawfully admitted nonimmigrant alien may become deportable if his visitor's visa expires or if his student status changes. Criminal violations of the INA, on the other hand, include felonies and misdemeanors and are prosecuted in federal district courts. These types of violations include the bringing in and harboring of certain undocumented aliens, the illegal entry of aliens, and the reentry of aliens previously excluded or deported."
04/06/06, Congressional Research Service (CRS)

( http://www.immigrationprocon.org/que...imefelony.html )


What is the difference between a civil offense and a crime?

A civil offense is an infraction of a law that is not a crime. This may be something like a routine traffic offense such as speeding. The only penalty for a civil offense is a fine. A crime is a violation of the law that is punishable by a fine or a jail sentence. A Class Three or Class Four misdemeanor in Virginia is only punishable by a fine. These may be violations of noise ordinances or other offenses not involving injuries to other persons or their property. A Class One misdemeanor is punishable by up to 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine. A Class Two misdemeanors are punishable by 6 months in jail and a $1,000 fine. Felonies are punishable by one or more years in prison and fines of up to $100,000.

( http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/c...ense_crime.htm )

[Jeff]

Pullllleeeeease !

Ok...try this....you go to Best Buy, you steal a TV, you go out the door, to your car, you drive away. Are you a criminal? Of course! Are you a convicted criminal? No.

Of course you are entitled to due process, read my posts (again). I never suggested you aren't.

It is the same when you cross the border illegally (or you are here illegally). You are a criminal. You've done something illegal, you are a criminal, you have a criminal account that needs to be answered to... AND A JUDGE/JURY WILL DECIDE (like I've said) if you are guilty or innocent. An immigration judge (they do exist) will decide.

[SonofMichael]

Misdemeanor, felonies and violations all require due process. Jeff did not say anything to indicate otherwise. Misdemeanants are, in fact, convicted criminals by definition. People who commit violations generally are not criminals by deinition but some violations can become misdemeanors if there are aggravated circumstances and then they do become criminals. Regardless, they all get due process.

I believe you may have the concept of standard of proof confused with due process. Procedural due process is essentially based on the concept of "fundamental fairness". As construed by the courts, it includes an individual's right to be adequately notified of charges or proceedings, and the opportunity to be heard at these proceedings. This is not at issue. At issue is how are crimes and violations different.

A conviction of a crime, felony or misdemeanor, requires beyond reasonable doubt standard. A conviction of a violation(ie. traffic, immigration) requires preponderance of the evidence (more than half but not beyond reasonable doubt).

So now this will start a whole new discussion I'm sure.

[Hudson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jeff:
Yes, illegal = criminal. It doesn't matter if it is a misdemeanor or a felony.

Misdemeanor - Law. a criminal offense defined as less serious than a felony.

Question: When you get a ticket for speeding you broke the law---Are you a criminal?

Answer: Yes, until you've completed restitution, you are a criminal. Whether it is jail, community service, a fine, etc, or in this case, you've returned to your home country, completed the ten year ban (or however many years it is), or whatever a judge has imposed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So much for the 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments here. I guess Jeff never heard of due process.

[chuck]

jeff----

Or amnesty/path to legalization. Sooner or later they will not be illegals as the Lou Dobb's of the world refer to the undocumented.

[SonofMichael]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jeff:
Most traffic violations are treated as misdemeanors.
See: http://www.legalfish.com/traffic-violation-lawyers.htm
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your own site says the following; did you bother reading it?

Infractions

Most traffic violations fall into this category, including potentially harmless moving violations and non-moving violations. Conviction of an infraction usually results in a minor fine and rarely employs a jury trial. However, they are kept on a driver's record for several years and can have adverse effects on insurance rates.

Misdemeanors

A traffic violation qualifies as a misdemeanor if it harms or could potentially harm the well being of another. Examples of misdemeanors include drunk driving, driving on a suspended or revoked license, reckless driving, driving without proper insurance, and leaving the scene of an accident. Punishments for a traffic misdemeanor are exactly the same as any other misdemeanor: a fine, less than a year of incarceration, or both.

Felonies

Felonies are far more serious and are punishable by a year or more of incarceration. Traffic violations are felonies if the action kills, severely injures, or could potentially severely injure another. Examples of traffic felonies are "hit and run" violations, multiple DUI offenses, and the killing of another with a motor vehicle.

[SonofMichael]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Someone12:
EVERY illegal is a criminal for just breathing the air in the United States of America.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GIVE US BACK OUR AIR !!! ILLEGALS ARE STEALING OUR SWEET SMELL OF FREEDOM !!!

EVERY illegal is a criminal for just breathing the air in the United States of America..

[Jeff]

Most traffic violations are treated as misdemeanors.

See: http://www.legalfish.com/traffic-violation-lawyers.htm

If you run a red light and are NOT caught, you are still a criminal. You can be sent a ticket in the mail weeks later, you can be found by a witness later etc. Even though you are not caught then and there you are a criminal until the statute of limitations runs out.
Example: If you embezzel from a company and are not caught right away, you are still a criminal, until the statute of limitations runs out. If you are caught, a charge would have to be filed, run it's course through the courts and a judge/jury would have to find you guilty or innocent. Although you are innocent until proven guilty, you still have a criminal account that must be answered to and either convicted of or expunged, by a judge/jury.

There is no statute of limitations on the act of becoming an illegal alien. Therefore you remain a criminal (until decided on by a judge).

[SonofMichael]

Very rarely will mere speeding be a misdemeanor. If you are drag racing or are exceeding the speed limit by a lot then it could become one. Someone going 70 on a 60 MPH is not a criminal but merely a traffic violater and will get a ticket; someone drag racing in a school zone at 120 MPH is committing a misdemeanor crime punishable by a jail sentence. Below Felony is a misdemeanor and below misdemeanor is a violation. Misdemeanors and Felonys are considered crimes. A person convicted of a misdemeanor is , IN FACT, considered a criminal. This is not a debatable poin, it is a definitional observation.