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Lurker Well, I for one agree completely with Vera - and there are many others who do as well. We cannot relax as long as the Bush family continues to use their money, connections and family name to steamroll over democracy and the Constitution. If w

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  • acelaw
    If you really like to have decent conversation I am open to learn, I ask you take the time to go though this post and go to these places and give me your thoughts on what is happening in this country. Read with an open mind, you said I like factual articles, that's a must to make up a fair and just opinion , based on FACTS not emotion. Anybody else that wants to really look at this stuff and have a decent conversation I am open, but attack and then it just gets nasty. I am an activist on this issue, that's the way it works in this country, that's how you make change here, not forcing you will upon others when you have no legal standing to do so, that will only make hard feeling and when we see you trying to beat the system you are beating every citizens in this country that some day you hope to be here legal, well then the shoe will be on your foot and your Childs foot, think about that, if you bend our laws now you have no right to complain later when it is done to you. When does it end????.

    you cannot buy the tolerance, understanding, empathy, openmindedness and compassion our city kids learn along with their ABCs.

    How can you be any of these when what you have spent 105 years combined( between Dad and Son) and these values have been taken from you by those that do not think of these values, nor were raised with them, they didn't have time to learn these values, Mexico is very corrupt, you take when you can or you go with out, this is not slam to them it is just a fact , you do not know the HATE that comes with SOME of these folks, if any one you know is honest about it they will tell you of the Radical Element that thinks we stole this land (Calif) and they are here to take it back, Why else would they come to just the western states and crowd in here like this? Read these and tell me what you think I am open minded But????
    From "El Plan de Aztlan": In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny
    We are sued at every step of the way here, do you think this is the right thing to do?is this what legal folks do that want to help build this nation so we all have a better life??? Is this the immigration that built this country? They spend billions trying to disrupt this country ,why not spend it helping their people, it looks as that is our job to pay for this, what do you think???

    What did you think of the car sticker ?Did you look at that picture ? Why would any one put that on there car here? What good could come of it ?.What kind of person would do that, how about some pointy head idiot like the KKK, but you accused me/us citizens of being Raciest, I / we are just trying to survive this??? Strong tone, well back an animal into a corner what do you except?105 years is down the toilet, why? because folks decide for me , I didn˜t decide for them in Mexico , we have no say their, they decide my fate against our laws , our Constitution and our proud immigration history, but it was not this kind of immigration that built what you see today, they send the money made here to other countries further hurting our country, are they here to make this country great, don't think so , actions speak louder then words.

    California has become much more ethnically diverse than the United States as
    a whole.
    In 1970, minorities made up roughly 20 percent of the population in both Cali-fornia
    and the United States as a whole (see Figure 3.4). In 1990, minorities
    were around 25 percent of the U.S. population but were approaching 50 percent
    of California's. Hispanics alone constituted about the same percentage of Cali-fornia's
    population that all minorities constituted for the entire nation: 25 per-cent.
    And about half of California's increase in Hispanics and most of its in-crease
    in Asians was the direct result of immigration.
    The Short Story
    Immigration has made Californians much different from what they were in the
    1960s and much different from what they would have become had there been
    no immigrants. Indeed, even if immigration into California were to stop, its
    impact would continue to be felt for many generations.

    I do not disagree that issues of poverty and overcrowdedness are a challenge for any community that is burdened with them. I do not want to make light of your issues. It is the sweeping generalizations and strong tone of hate in most of your posts that cause others here to want to argue with you.

    There is no sweeping generalization, I can back everything with the facts, you do not understand what is going on out west here, you see very little of the impact, imagine 50% of your Minneapolis invaded not by legal immigrates, but illegal folks, big defiance in the way they act, a legal immigrate can be deported for spitting on the side walk, those that come illegal have northing to loose, they are deportable the minute they enter this country, HA HA right, but suppose to be any way. Read the above statement again, (California has become much more ethnically diverse than the United States as
    a whole).
    diversity, that came and went long ago here.

    If I come and break into your house with my 4 kids and expect you to pay for my illegal presence, Medical care, food stamps schools ETC..., what would you do ? Welcome me ????or call the cops?

    This is a good site for issues and intelligent views on them Pro/Con
    ["Immigration: Is Exclusion Just?" this was a live link , you can search the site for it. it's a good article, I understand where some of this thinking comes from when they say there are no borders, but that is not reality for the world nor can it be...
    Issues in Ethics - V. 7, N. 3 Fall 1996

    In this issue
    Letters to the Editor
    Immigration Threatens California
    I cannot let the commentary on immigration ethics and policy ["Immigration: Is Exclusion Just?" by Manuel Velasquez, Spring 1996] go unaddressed. As a demographer and second-generation Californian, I have found myself professionally enmeshed in this area as an offshoot of my interest in environmental protection and sustainability and a commitment to a certain quality of life for this and successive generations.
    Such prominent ecologists as David Pimentel of Cornell University and Paul Ehrlich of Stanford University argue that the maximum sustainable population for the United States is 150 million and for California, 10 million -- levels last seen in 1950.
    Births in a low-mortality, stationary population of 10 million would be about 140,000 a year. In 1970, California had 360,000 births -- 325,000 to native-born women. In 1992, it had 600,000 births -- 334,000 to native-born women and 161,000 to Mexican-born women. Half the latter had not gone beyond grade school, which (according to a large number of well-designed studies) presages low educational achievement for their children, the antithesis of the requirements of a postindustrial society.
    Within a few years, as the baby boomers complete childbearing, the sole source of U.S. population growth will be post-1970 immigrants and, demographically more important, their offspring. Given the vastly disproportionate resource consumption per American, I argue that reducing, not adding to, the U.S. population should be a prime concern for everyone in the world, including the citizens of third world countries.
    B. Meredith Burke
    Palo Alto, Calif.
    Close the Back Door
    I am writing as a descendant of legal immigrants and the husband of a woman whose parents were legal immigrants from Ireland. I do not oppose immigration; I am a product of it. But it is important to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, which Velasquez fails to do.
    Theodore Hesburgh, CSC, former president of the University of Notre Dame, was a member of a national commission to reform U.S. immigration policy. He said the United States must "close the back door" to illegal immigration if it wants to keep the "front door" open to legal immigrants. Over the years, this country has developed what is probably the most generous, compassionate, and humane immigration policy of any major nation. Martin Cook's quotation ["Martin Cook Replies," Spring 1996] that the United States is a "nation with the soul of a church" is to the point.
    But even churches require their members to conform to certain beliefs and rules to remain in good standing. There is every justification for nations to expect the same of immigrants.
    Watt B. Clinch
    Roseville, Calif.

    Calif has been mis-managed for sure, that's why the recall, we sure did not need the finial coffin nails hammered in by illegals, I have posted the facts, its not all the fault of illegals never said it was, but think about this 40% of the budget just like in most states is for education

    Twenty-eight percent of all workers in Los Angeles County are paid in cash as part of an underground economy that's costing various governmental agencies and estimated $1.1 billion annually in safety net funding? There are approximately 5 million illegal aliens in California. Of the 6 million K-12 students in our public schools, 1.5 are illegal aliens, -each costing taxpayers $7,092 annually, or $16 billion annually. There are approximately 96,000 illegal alien births in California county hospitals annually, - all paid for by taxpayers. The average cost is $3,800, or $365 million annually.


    These new citizen infants are eligible for TANF (welfare) benefits, and most of the illegal moms gladly cash their welfare checks month after month after month. The average monthly TANF payment is $479. Although no one in the Department of Social Services seems to know how many illegal moms are involved in this scam, just the first year's batch of 96,000, not counting multiple births in previous or succeeding years, totals out at $552 million annually. And it's a good bet that if all the illegal moms' check cashing activity from all the years of rip-offs were added-up, just for the above three items, we'd be way over $5 billion annually. Then add another $557 million annually to incarcerate 25,000 illegal aliens in California prisons and we're well on the way to $6 billion annually.

    .He could not help himself I guess, when does pandering and selling out your citizens for votes (maybe )stop, never will any of us be safe from this if it does not stop, you all (from where ever) may be next, no you will be next on the chopping block, this corruption of morals and values will be blind to race and care not who the victims are. An injustice done to one is an injustice done to all (eventually my friends)

    The date on this was Jan 2003, state is bankrupt but spend away????
    Calif. Gov. Davis Allocates Millions for Immigration Museum
    By Melissa Clary, The Daily Aztec
    SAN DIEGO – While Gov. Gray Davis proposed $ 60 million cuts to higher education this year, he hasn't deprived the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service of funds.
    Davis announced a $ 2.5 million grant for the Immigration Museum of New Americans in San Diego in November. This comes after a March release of $ 2.9 million in state funds for naturalization services to assist legal California permanent residents in becoming U.S. citizens. A total of 57 contracts were awarded to non-profit organizations to provide naturalization services throughout California. "With foreign-born residents and their children making up more than 20 percent of our nation's population, the work of this unique museum is especially relevant," Davis said when announcing the allocation in a press release.
    The $ 2.5 million is in local assistance funds from Proposition 40, a $ 2.6 billion bond measure for environmental, parks and cultural projects approved by California voters last March.
    The museum will address recent studies' findings that, while a significant number of first-generation students perform well in school, by the second and third generation, immigrant children are among the least successful students in this country, according to the release.
    The museum's goals are to address the problems of these immigrant children through a variety of programs designed to help immigrants' children connect with the cultural values of their family's homelands, to inspire individuals to discover and understand the reasons behind their ancestor's arduous journeys to this country and to empower immigrant groups to secure their rights as Americans.
    The facility features a "virtual museum," focusing on post-World War II immigration that uses interactive technology to allow visitors to explore the world's many cultures and their histories, according to the release.
    "It is something that we need in our society," San Diego State University marketing senior Mauricio Romero said. "(The museum) will help the city's diversity to form a community and promote the acceptance of other cultures in our society."
    Romero said he would definitely visit the museum to see what cultures are represented and how that representation is achieved.
    Pre-business junior Hideko Nakayama, an international exchange student from Brazil, said she feels that if the state has money to give to immigration programs like the museum, then it would be a great idea to contribute money to educate students about their cultural heritage.
    Nakayama said it would also be a good idea to offer programs in schools that have a large concentration of immigrant children.
    Davis also awarded money to other naturalization programs this past March. Catholic Charities of San Diego was awarded $ 88,630, the Korean American Coalition was awarded $ 25,360 and the International Rescue Committee of San Diego was awarded $ 84,138.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Acelaw, I really appreciated your own personal views this time. Yes, we are fortunate in MN to have lower population overall, thus less problems overall. The Twin Cities area is around 1 million people, of which around 200,000 are latino immigrants. We also have the largest national populations of both Somali and Hmong immigrants, as well as others. Here are some statistics for you since you like factual data:
    City of Minneapolis population trends

    Like cities and towns across Minnesota, Minneapolis' population is becoming increasingly diverse. Diversity provides exciting cultural and economic opportunities. At the same time, diversity brings challenges, including poverty, education, and housing.

    Minneapolis' population reflected in 2002 census data
    Minneapolis -- 382,618
    Hennepin County -- 1,116,200
    Minneapolis saw a 4% growth in population after decades of loss.
    People of color and immigrants make up 100% of the city's population gain.
    The White population declined by 13.8%, while the Non-White population increased by 68 %.
    Minneapolis has the largest Black/African American, Hispanic and American Indian populations in the State. Minneapolis has the second largest Asian population in the state.
    Minneapolis' Hispanic population grew by 269.3%.
    Socioeconomic Trends
    2002 Census data showed a slight decline in Minneapolis' poverty rate, from 18.5% to 16.9%. Despite this good news, a troubling trend is developing. Although the White population's poverty rate has remained virtually the same, minority poverty rates are increasing significantly. For example, the African American child poverty rate in Minneapolis is almost 50%, while the White child poverty rate is barely 10%.

    Other Significant Trends
    65% of all Minneapolis Public Schools students live in poverty.
    19% of all Minneapolis Public Schools students are non-English speaking.
    Over 83 languages are spoken in Minneapolis Public Schools.
    The median price for a home in Minneapolis is $149,000. The regional median price is $170,000.
    The region's homeownership rate is 71.4 %, one of the highest in the nation.
    The homeownership rate in Minneapolis is 51%. Of these homeowners, 58% are white, 34% Asian and 32% African American
    End of statistics, back to personal views)

    I personally love diversity. I do not live in the suburbs and will never do so. I live in the city of Minneapolis proper, within 5 blocks of a major Latino community and around 10 blocks from a Somali and other east African community. We prefer it that way. My children have grown up surrounded by people of color. At their birthday parties there are all shades of the rainbow - they think nothing of it. In fact, one of my proudest moments was when my oldest son was around 6 and we had just left a home where there were a group of daycare kids sitting around the table having lunch. Max said to me "Mom, did you see those kids?" I asked him what he meant; all I had seen was a group of kids eating peanut butter sandwiches. He replied, in a voice of awe, "They all had yellow hair!"

    Now, this from a boy with yellow hair, with a brother and mother with yellow hair, in a state full of people with yellow hair. I knew right then he was going to grow up just fine.

    Are our schools as well-funded and supplied as those of Edina or Rochester or other predominantly white, affluent cities here? Of course not. But while those other schools may have all the educational materials and teachers money can buy, you cannot buy the tolerance, understanding, empathy, openmindedness and compassion our city kids learn along with their ABCs.

    I do not disagree that issues of poverty and overcrowdedness are a challenge for any community that is burdened with them. I do not want to make light of your issues. It is the sweeping generalizations and strong tone of hate in most of your posts that cause others here to want to argue with you.

    Given the governor recall in CA there is a lot about your state on the news lately. I heard just yesterday that between individual and corporate tax evaders in California, the state is shortchanged OVER $6 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR (1 billion individual; 5 billion business). If I can find it in print I will post it for you. Here is one tiny piece of that tax money - just imagine, the one man listed here owes $3 million personally, not to mention what he sheltered for his clients (I think the only Latino thing about him is the name of his town). If the new governor can get his or her hands on the entire $6 billion, your state's problems would be a long way towards being solved.

    O.C. Man Sentenced to 3 Years for Conspiracy, Tax Evasion
    Times Headlines

    An Orange County tax shelter promoter was sentenced Monday to three years in federal prison for helping people hide their money from the Internal Revenue Service.

    Edward J. Lashlee, 54, also must pay a $12,500 fine and back taxes.

    The Mission Viejo resident pleaded guilty on March 5 to conspiracy and tax evasion charges. He admitted that the thousands of trusts he created allowed people to hide ownership of major assets and avoid reporting a substantial portion of their income.

    Lashlee admitted in his plea deal that he promoted trust investments into the Genesis Fund, which claimed to be an unregulated private investment fund based in Orange County that traded foreign currency through offshore accounts in Hong Kong, Macao and elsewhere.

    Potential investors were told that Genesis was extremely profitable and that it did not report its investors' accounts to the Internal Revenue Service, authorities said.

    Lashlee acknowledged handling the transfer of about $24 million in Genesis investor funds to offshore bank accounts in Hong Kong and elsewhere.

    Authorities said he gave clients with offshore bank accounts Visa and debit cards that enabled clients to secretly retrieve and spend their money.

    He also created trusts for business owners that improperly deducted the clients' personal expenses as expenses of the trust, authorities said.

    In pleading guilty, Lashlee also admitted failing to report about $3 million in income from 1992 through 2000.

    Best of luck to you, Acelaw.

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  • acelaw
    Lunker lives in Minnesota and runs her mouth about illegal immigration, you have no right too, what do you have in your town 10 illegals? Try living in the middle of 2.5 million, your such a hypocrite and now a fool for opening that trap of yours, this is what you wish for your follow human beings to live like this, to have their places they grew up ripped away from them. I bet our gang of illegals (18 th street gang 55,000 strong now) is bigger then your whole states avg. town size, what a **** you are. Come live in this and then run your mouth
    To JRO
    Is it human nature to go to another country cross its borders illegally, commit crimes in that act, then take food off the table of the folks in that country for your own greedy needs, bring 1 million criminals with you that kill folks in that country, increase their tax burdens which hurts their families ,over crowd a state and create a finical burden to those that live their causing them to have to leave places their grew up and lived all their lives ,degrade EVERY ONES QULITY OF LIFE and then rationalize it with crimes committed by legal citizens ?How old are you, 10 years old, Johnny did it so I can do it, So I guess we can use that excuse to invade Canada as they have criminals too , RIGHT, what does the Unabomber have to do with illegal entry into another country? Do you see how corrupt your thinking is??? That is what you bring here.

    Explain how come a citizen had to sell hi/and his families houses(2) in Orange County Calif where they grew up and lived for 40 years and 65 years because it was not safe in the HOOD any more? O.C. Calif has a populace approaching the density of China the most dense in the world, 25 people live in three bedroom houses, no front yards anymore, parking lots for 5-6 cars, cost of services have skyrocketed because of this, you use to see one trash truck do the block now we need a fleet to take care of the area, of course they just raised every ones bill , fixed income? TOO BAD, same with sewer bills, 25 people using the bathroom when system was designed to handle only 2 to 3 people per house , raise rates, fixed income TOO BAD ,they don't pay 15 times the property taxes to support these extra cost they cause, TOO BAD , RIGHT 15 kids in one house go to schools designed to only hold 2.5 kids per house our National avg. so we have 45 kids per room Federal law says only 25 per room , schools over crowed and the worst in the nation, but cost the most to run. TOO BAD right? Our kids suffer ,TOO BAD RIGHT, need to build a school a day in Calif to keep up with illegal immigration, opps, state is bankrupt, TOO BAD for our kids HUH???? After all they only seek a better life while ruining others life's in the process, TOO BAD RIGHT ?
    We lived with the gang problem (55,000 strong now )and every time you heard a car backfire you ran out side to see if it was drive-by shooting and worried that you would find your child laying in the street, caught in the cross fire. South Central L.A. no need for couch, chairs ETC.. in your house/apt you sat on the floor to watch TV etc.. because you want to stay low out of the line of fire .you child is harassed daily at schools by gang members if they look at them wrong or sit in the wrong place, if they cross them they get a beating, if there lucky. Every time you heard tries squeal you ran out to see if your child was hit by a car as we lived with the highest hit and run in the USA, how nice to do that to our citizens. And your FOLLOW HUMAN BEINGS , compassion you yell, WHERE IS IT FOR THE LIVES YOU AFFECT BY YOUR ILLEGAL, IMMORAL BEHAVIOR????????LIVES CHANGED FOE EVER.

    And best of all we get to see ***per stickers like THIS .

    So will be moving like the rest of the taxpaying jobs and native Calif. To safer states, why because 8 million illegal aliens decided it for us, HOW NICE OF THEM. The business I spent years building is ruined , we lived with 2.5 million illegal aliens just in L.A. counties alone ,4.5 million in the state itself.

    Apr 28, 8:06 AM EDT
    Calif. Murder Rate Up Nearly 11 Percent
    LOS ANGELES (AP) -- California's homicide rate rose nearly 11 percent last year, and other major crimes were also on the rise, the state attorney general said Sunday.
    The state's largest cities and counties reported 1,842 killings in 2002, 179 more than in 2001, according to preliminary figures.
    Count of Los Angeles City gangs and gang members
    Hispanic 204 39,816
    Crip 107 15,635
    Blood 43 6,152
    Asian 32 2,109
    Stoner 16 886
    White 5 173
    TOTALS: 407 64,771

    The 18th street gang has killed 1000 people since 1985, the killers walk our streets because the witnesses too dead or scared to come to court..
    "...Out of the membership estimated to be as high as 20,000, about 60% of them are illegal immigrants, according to a confidential report last year by the state Department of Justice..."
    This is only the tip of the iceberg , it gets worse but you could less about the life's you have affected by your illegal entry into another human beings country and forcing your will upon them ,negatively affecting there life's, as long as you get what YOU WANT, its just human nature RIGHT!!!! We should just go to any country and do the same thing to them.

    Phony Mexican IDs for sale in Los Angeles park
    E.J. Tamara

    Los Angeles, U.S., July 23, 2003 (EFE) - A burgeoning black market here frequented by illegal immigrants has a new product: the forged "matricula consular," an official Mexican document some states accept for opening a bank account or getting a driver's license.

    The fake registration cards are sold in broad daylight just two blocks from the Mexican Consulate at MacArthur Park, where interested parties can also buy phony Social Security cards, driver licenses, work permits and green cards.

    The phony registration cards fetch double the price of their legal counterparts, haggling aside, as confirmed by this EFE correspondent.

    "For $60, I'll make you Mexican and for $80, I'll make you a gringo," one of the sellers told EFE, referring to the going prices for phony registration cards and U.S. residency cards, respectively.

    According to Agustin Pradillo, spokesman for the Mexican Consulate in Los Angeles, the buyers are most likely non-Mexican Hispanics who want to take advantage of the benefits provided by the identification card.

    "Those who are Mexican have no problem obtaining a registration card; they know they can get a real one for $29," said Pradillo. Return to regular view
    Exodus to other states tops new arrivals
    Population still soaring from births and foreign influx
    Tyche Hendricks, Chronicle Staff Writer
    Wednesday, August 6, 2003
    ©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback
    Driven by the high cost of housing and the aggravation of traffic jams,
    Californians fled the Golden State for places like Nevada and Arizona in the late 1990s, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.
    It was the first time more people left for other states than moved to California from other states, and the trend is continuing, experts say.
    Last year, Miiko Mentz, a 39-year-old Cupertino native who works in public relations, steered her U-Haul truck southeast, following hundreds of thousands of others who left California in the latter half of the 1990s.
    "We went from paying $3,000 a month in rent to a mortgage of $1,490," said Mentz, who moved with her husband from San Jose to Chandler, Ariz., a Phoenix suburb, last year. "Our house here is 2,700 square feet, and we have a pool. It was the right choice."

    Posted on Mon, Jul. 28, 2003 

    California's hit-and-run fatal accidents tops all states

    SAN FRANCISCO - More motorists in California flee the scene of fatal auto accidents than in any other state, according to a newspaper's analysis of traffic data published Sunday.
    The number of fatal accidents in California involving hit-and-run drivers has reached 7.8 percent, a figure that leads all states and is double the national average of 3.8 percent, according the San Francisco Chronicle's examination of traffic data.
    Law enforcement officers say the state's crowded thoroughfares and a high number of unlicensed drivers is partially to blame for the state's hit-and-run woes.
    "It's probably the same thing we see with (police) pursuits," said Steve Kohler, a spokesman for the California Highway Patrol. "A person who may feel like they have nothing to lose."
    In February, the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety released a study that found that 21 percent of California's fatal auto accidents between 1993 and 1999 involved unlicensed drivers.
    The report went on to conclude that many unlicensed drivers are illegal aliens or drivers who cannot afford state-required car insurance.
    The state's Department of Motor Vehicles estimates that there are about 1 million unlicensed drivers on the road. There are 22.6 million licensed drivers in California, the agency says.
    After California, the state with the next highest hit-and-run fatality rate is Arizona, with 6.8 percent of its fatal crashes involve motorists fleeing the scene.
    "How could you not stop?" asks Lt. John Carlin of the San Francisco Police Department traffic division. "It defies any form of common sense. You should know that if you hit a person that you have an obligation to stop and assist them."

    Adolescents and Children Injured or Killed in Drive-By Shootings in Los Angeles

    H. Range Hutson, Deirdre Anglin, and Michael J. Pratts

    Background Drive-by shootings by violent street gangs contribute to early morbidity and mortality among adolescents and children in Los Angeles. This study attempted to determine the frequency of this problem and the population at greatest risk. We also studied the most frequently injured areas of the body, the seasons in which the most shootings occurred, the most common sites for drive-by shootings, and the types of firearms used.

    Methods We retrospectively reviewed the files of the Gang Information Section of the Los Angeles Police Department to identify all drive-by shootings in Los Angeles in 1991 in which a child or adolescent under the age of 18 was shot at, injured, or killed.

    Results A total of 677 adolescents and children were shot at, among whom 429 (63 percent) had gunshot wounds and 36 (5.3 percent) died from their injuries. Three hundred three of those with gunshot wounds (71 percent) were gang members. Arms and legs were the areas of the body most commonly injured. Handguns were the most frequently used type of firearm. All the homicide victims were African American or Hispanic, and 97 percent were boys. African American and Hispanic children and adolescents, especially male gang members, had a significantly higher risk than their Asian and white counterparts of injury and death from drive-by shootings in Los Angeles (P<0.001).

    Conclusions Drive-by shootings involving adolescents and children are frequent in Los Angeles. Although Los Angeles may be an atypical case, understanding why violent street gangs form, preventing causes of violence, and limiting access to firearms are essential steps in preventing this serious problem.

    Source Information

    From the Department of Emergency Medicine, Los Angeles County and University of Southern California Medical Center (H.R.H., D.A.), and the University of Southern California (M.J.P.) -- both in Los Angeles.

    This was in 1991, it has increased 100 fold in 2003.

    Information collected from a variety of sources for this report indicates there may have been as many as 1,000 gang-related killings and 3,000 drive-by shootings in California during 1991. Many of the victims were innocent bystanders.
    Both the killings and drive-by shootings have evolved as the most frequent violent crimes committed by gang members since the early 1980s. Members of one gang drive by and shoot at residences and vehicles of rival gang members. The gunmen often yell the name or slogan of their gang, so the "victim" gang will know who is responsible. Usually, the rival gang retaliates with a drive-by shooting of their own, and the cycle of revenge killings begins.

    California street gang violence is not a new phenomenon. Today, the gangs have become more sophisticated and organized, with an abundance of large-caliber handguns, shotguns, and automatic and semi-automatic weapons--including AK-47s, Mac-10s, and Uzi su bmachine guns.

    Examples of gang-related criminal incidents and statistics include the following:

    In 1981, there were 351 gang killings in Los Angeles County compared to 771 during 1991. Two-hundred-and-seven of the 771 killings occurred in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department jurisdiction, and 564 occurred in other police jurisdictions wi thin Los Angeles County. Forty-eight of the 207 killings were innocent victims; 5 were over the sale of narcotics; the rest were the result of inter-gang rivalry.

    The San Fernando Valley now averages 3.5 gang crimes per day compared to 2.5 gang crimes every 3 days 10 years ago.

    In 1991, there were 23 gang-related murders in Santa Ana, and juveniles were involved as either victims or suspects in 12 of them. There were approximately 1,500 juveniles arrested in Santa Ana during 1991; and more than half of them were involved in gang-related criminal activity.

    Over 30 percent of the crimes committed in San Bernardino during 1990 and 1991 were gang related.

    The number of gang-related arrests, prosecutions, and convictions in Antelope Valley (Los Angeles County) increased over 900 percent from 1982 to 1992. The number of gangs increased from 3 to 270 during this time.

    There were 1,268 gang defendants filed on by the Orange County District Attorney's Office in 1989; 2,285 in 1990; and 3,050 in 1991. The 1991 figure reflects an increase of 141 percent over the 1989 figure.
    There were 197 gang defendants charged with violent felonies (murder, attempted murder, robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, and shooting at an inhabited dwelling) in 1989; 268 in 1990; and 436 in 1991. The 1991 statistic increased 121 percent since 19 89.

    There were 6 gang defendants charged with murder in 1989; 28 in 1990; and 43 in 1991.

    From 1985 to 1992, the number of gangs in Anaheim increased by 338 percent while the number of gang members rose 347 percent. Anaheim reported more than 100 gang-related shootings from April through October 1990.

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    Guest replied
    do you mean racist?

    Your question


    is as asking "Have folks killed by US Citizens had their constitutionly right violated?" Of course! Violating rights has nothing to do with immigration status. Ilegal aliens, just the same as US citizens also make choices to commit crimes or be responsible tax payer and honorable citizens.

    Your problem is you confuse HUMAN NATURE with IMMIGRATION STATUS. That is too long of a stretch!!! My friend, NEVER FORGET Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, or the KK clan! as american as baseball and apple pie!

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  • acelaw
    It was posted on a thread on these boards , find it.Chipmunk >
    I guess you don't agree with the ***s ? but then its ok for you to exercise your right not to agree, when others do the same they are nothing but Raciest, Right Chippemunk ?Even when said person has the law and Constitution and Bill of rights on his side he still is a raciest HMMMMM

    Main Entry: hyp·o·crite 
    Pronunciation: 'hi-p&-"krit
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Old French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritEs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
    Date: 13th century
    : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    - hypocrite adjective

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    Guest replied
    LOL ChipMunk!

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    Guest replied
    Acelaw, what do you do for a living?

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  • acelaw
    It seems you can't follow the thread, I asked:


    What does any of this **** you write have to do with those questions?

    posted August 08, 2003 04:09 PM

    1) Murderers are criminals, subject to processes and punishments codified by laws precisely like the ones you cite (5th and 14th amendments and others). All murderers, whether they are illegal immigrants or citizens (as are, of course, the overwhelming percentage of murderers in this country), are subject to the laws regarding crime and punishment. The law works very well no matter the status of the murderer. Your rights as a citizen against such criminals are well-protected and enforced.

    2) On the other hand, right now the highest office in the land is held by a person who obtained that post through inaccurate processes at best and voter fraud at worst; who greased his way to the top with millions of dollars from those among the richest 1% of Americans (who have more millions to be gained by ensuring his rise); who begins wars under false pretenses and sends his country's young men and women to die as a way to deflect voters' attention away from his leadership failures; who strips YOUR rights to privacy as a US citizen in order to get around the annoying practice of due process; who claims his religious beliefs are a good enough reason to overturn the separation of church and state - THIS is the profile of someone trampling your rights as a citizen, ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights. THIS is who you should fear instead of the Spanish-speaking gardener down the street.

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    Guest replied
    "You do not deserve protection under those documents because you violate the freedoms they protect for your own selfish reasons, you're the problem in this country , not the answer."

    Umm, Acelaw, maybe you have forgotten from my many other posts regarding WHY I am even on this board (or more likely, maybe you never read them) - but I am a boring white native Minnesotan, third-generation Icelandic/English woman. Now, if you want to say I'm the problem because I fell in love with a South American man, that's fine. But please at least try to remember that not everyone posting on this board is an illegal Mexican immigrant! It makes it even harder to take you seriously when you cannot follow the threads of conversation.

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  • acelaw
    + Return to regular view
    How killers in state stay untouchable
    Mexican court scraps extradition treaty -- frustrated California D.A.s won't cut deals
    Maria Alicia Gaura, Chronicle Staff Writer
    Sunday, August 10, 2003
    ©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback


    After a months-long search, Santa Cruz County investigators found the man accused of a brutal attack in which he allegedly slashed a girl's throat and then raped her friend.

    Trouble is, the only way to get him is to cut a deal.

    Suspect Miguel Loza is behind bars in a Mexico City jail. But Mexican authorities refuse to send him to the United States to stand trial unless he is guaranteed parole.

    The dilemma facing Santa Cruz prosecutors -- whether to reduce charges for a heinous crime or risk leaving a suspected killer, rapist and child molester on the loose -- has become increasingly common for district attorneys throughout the state since October 2001. That was when Mexico's Supreme Court ruled that life in prison, or any term without guaranteed parole, constitutes cruel and unusual punishment under Mexico's constitution.

    That decision supersedes the 1980 U.S.-Mexico Extradition Treaty, a document that allowed Mexico to refuse extradition of suspects facing the death penalty in the United States.

    U.S. prosecutors tended to accept that limitation and substitute a life sentence. But after the Mexican high court's recent ruling, a life sentence for first-degree murder is no longer an option. District attorneys are refusing to compromise.

    "We wait till he comes back and arrest him in the U.S.," said Santa Cruz County Chief Deputy District Attorney Ariadne Symons. 'It's not much of a plan,

    but it's all we've got. I think there's a good chance he'll come back, because his family's here."

    Extradition is now routinely denied in more than 40 categories of serious crime that are punishable by possible life terms under California law, including murder, rape, child molestation, kidnapping for ransom and train wrecking, among others.

    Nobody knows how many criminal fugitives from California are in Mexico. But Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Janice Maurizi has compiled a partial database with worrisome numbers.

    "I have a list of 246 names of cases where we know the fugitive has fled to Mexico," Maurizi said. "Most of them are from Los Angeles, and probably 95 percent are murders."

    In the Santa Cruz case, the 17-year-old slashing victim died last week after six months of being in a vegetative state. She never regained consciousness after the Feb. 10 attack.

    Advocates for victims' rights, prosecutors and victims of violent crimes are lobbying federal officials to pressure the Mexican government to change the law.

    "Now, in California, we cannot give the assurances that Mexico is seeking unless we down-charge murder, for instance, to manslaughter or assault," Maurizi said.

    "That is a pretty dramatic change, and almost every district attorney in the state has decided against (reducing charges) in these very serious cases," she said. "It's an equal protection argument. Do you get a special break just because you made it across the border?"

    As for Loza, the pending charges of homicide, sodomy, assault with a deadly weapon and forcible *** assault on a child would have to be reduced to the level of manslaughter before Mexico would allow extradition.

    Santa Cruz District Attorney Bob Lee says justice would not be served by giving Loza a break.

    "That attitude is insulting to the young women who were victimized in this case," Lee said. "There is no statute of limitations on the crimes he has committed here. . . . And if he is ever found in the U.S., we will prosecute him, even if it's in 10 or 20 years."

    The situation is complicated by other elements of Mexican law.

    If U.S. prosecutors request extradition of a suspect and it is denied, the case is automatically turned over to Mexican authorities for trial. Under the extradition treaty, prosecutors in the United States can send evidence to Mexico and prosecute a case there.

    But no matter the result of that trial, California authorities are bound to accept the case as closed, because state law recognizes the result of foreign prosecutions, and retrying the case would result in double jeopardy for the defendant.

    The automatic trials following denied extradition are a sore point for Maurizi, who says they sometimes serve as a "get out of jail free" ticket, even though Mexican law allows for a maximum sentence of 60 years in the most serious cases.

    "In the past, we allowed Mexico to prosecute many of those cases," Maurizi said. "But then I started tracking those cases and found the results were very unpredictable."

    In a majority of the cases she studied, the suspect was never arrested, Maurizi said. In others, mostly homicides, sentences frequently ranged from three to eight years.

    And then appeals kicked in.

    "We had one murderer who got eight years initially, but that was reduced to some weekends on appeal," Maurizi said. "A short time later, he ended up back in L.A., walking around free, and there's nothing we could do to him."

    In a letter signed by all of the 58 district attorneys in the state, the California District Attorneys Association last year urged U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to address California's growing extradition crisis.

    "The policy of the Mexican government sends a powerful message that a person can commit a heinous crime in California and escape from justice for the price of a bus ticket across the border," the letter said.

    Mexican authorities defend their constitutional protections, which they say more closely resemble standards in Europe and other developed countries than the increasingly harsh criminal penalties being enacted in the United States.

    "I think the (Supreme Court) decision was a progressive one," said Enrique Cepeda, regional attache to the Western United States for the Attorney General of Mexico.

    "There are almost no European countries that still have the death penalty, and the tendency (in developed countries) is to abolish the death penalty and reduce prison sentences. Our tradition is of rehabilitation, and the Supreme Court doesn't want to lose sight of that," Cepeda said.

    "But we do have very harsh penalties for homicide and first-degree murder --

    up to 60 years of imprisonment. For a person in their 20s, that is essentially life imprisonment."

    Changing the new extradition rules would be difficult because they are based on Mexico's constitution, and U.S. officials would probably be better off working within the Mexican system, Cepeda said.

    "In cases where we get all the documentation and forensics, we can prepare a strong case and get sentences of up to 60 years," Cepeda said. "If the evidence is not so strong, suspects may get the minimum, which is two years in a homicide depending on how it was committed."

    It's not that different from the U.S.," Cepeda said, "where if you don't have good evidence and the person gets a good defense attorney, they may be acquitted."

    While acknowledging that the extradition conflict is a "real hot-burner issue" between California and Mexico, Special Assistant California Attorney General Alberto Gonza*** emphasized diplomacy as the best way to resolve the problem.

    "Our diplomacy has been to highlight to Mexico the importance of these cases," Gonza*** said. "We want their judges to act accordingly, we want to work together in that regard.' "

    Rather than push for extradition, California prosecutors will be more willing to work with their Mexican counterparts if Mexico can show that cases are vigorously prosecuted and that the sentences are actually served, Gonza*** said.

    Both Gonza*** and Cepeda noted that Mexico's attorney general set up a task force in 1994 to focus on U.S. cases prosecuted in Mexico City and track the outcome. Cepeda said that the task force's conviction rate has been high -- with only 13 outright acquittals of 180 cases.

    Just last month, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., sent a letter to Mexican President Vicente Fox detailing four heinous crimes and asserting that the perpetrators escaped justice by fleeing to Mexico.

    "A grave danger exists that Mexico will become a safe haven for serious criminals," Feinstein wrote.

    While imploring Fox to take action, however, Feinstein did not propose what that action might be.

    Los Angeles resident Anabella Vara's ex-husband, Daniel Perez, shot her in the head and was tried and convicted of attempting to kill her. Perez allegedly killed her father for testifying against him at the trial and is wanted in the slaying of a witness. He is now believed to be in Mexico. Vara is working to organize victims whose tormentors are fugitives from justice in Mexico.

    "One of the reasons I think this issue hasn't been picked up is that someone always wants to make it an anti-immigrant thing, an anti-Mexican issue, " Vara said. "I think that's missing the point. You don't have to be an illegal immigrant, all you need is a Hispanic surname and the Mexican government will protect you.

    "My ex-husband was 2 years old when he got here," Vara said. "We had a home here and he worked for the state. He's as much a U.S. citizen as anyone else."

    Vara's ex-husband fled to Mexico in the middle of his trial. He was found guilty of attempting to kill her. But the Mexican government won't recognize Perez's conviction since he was sentenced in absentia, a detail that makes Vara's blood boil.

    "Who the hell is Mexico to enforce their judicial system on me?" Vara said. "That criminal committed his crime in this land. If I believed in the Mexican system I would live there. But somehow it is still following us."

    The fact that Perez is still at large rankles Maurizi, too.

    "He's down there with his new family, sipping margaritas and laughing at the system," she said. "They won't extradite unless we drop (down) this premeditated murder of a witness to manslaughter."

    E-mail Maria Alicia Gaura at

    ©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback

    Page A - 1

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    Guest replied
    Amen Lena!

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  • acelaw


    You do not deserve protection under those documents because you violate the freedoms they protect for your own selfish reasons, you're the problem in this country , not the answer.

    Karma will return to you what you put out.

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    Guest replied
    Amen Lurker!

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    Guest replied

    1) Murderers are criminals, subject to processes and punishments codified by laws precisely like the ones you cite (5th and 14th amendments and others). All murderers, whether they are illegal immigrants or citizens (as are, of course, the overwhelming percentage of murderers in this country), are subject to the laws regarding crime and punishment. The law works very well no matter the status of the murderer. Your rights as a citizen against such criminals are well-protected and enforced.

    2) On the other hand, right now the highest office in the land is held by a person who obtained that post through inaccurate processes at best and voter fraud at worst; who greased his way to the top with millions of dollars from those among the richest 1% of Americans (who have more millions to be gained by ensuring his rise); who begins wars under false pretenses and sends his country's young men and women to die as a way to deflect voters' attention away from his leadership failures; who strips YOUR rights to privacy as a US citizen in order to get around the annoying practice of due process; who claims his religious beliefs are a good enough reason to overturn the separation of church and state - THIS is the profile of someone trampling your rights as a citizen, ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights. THIS is who you should fear instead of the Spanish-speaking gardener down the street.

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  • acelaw
    Do you think these folks (legal US citizens) that have been murdered by folks here illegally have had their Constitutionally Rights violated???? You use our rights and freedoms only when it suits you.

    Editor -- As a Mexican American whose son was killed by an illegal alien, my blood boils when I read your Aug. 5 editorial, "Revisiting immigration," which advocates an amnesty for 3 million illegal Mexican aliens!
    Illegal aliens have taken jobs that we Americans want. California is broke. Our schools are full. Many of our hospitals are bankrupt because they have to deliver the babies of illegal Mexican women free of charge. Your editorial should urge the federal government to deport all those who have broken our laws. Californians should not spend billions of dollars on services to illegal aliens in the state.

    U.S. Constitution: Fifth Amendment
    Fifth Amendment - Rights of Persons
    Amendment Text | Annotations
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    Do you think the taxes I pay for people here illegally which is my private property are taken for PUBLIC USE with out just compensation???

    U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment
    Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection
    Amendment Text | Annotations
    Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Do you think we are getting Equal protection , LOLOLOL ,when you advocate the violation of our laws and Constitution. What a hypocrite your are!!!!! Oh ,but let someone violate you and you cry to the havens.

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