acelaw and kenny and some other names are abusing this forum by posting anti-immigrant and hate messages.

[acelaw]

Kenny
Have been a activist in the immigration WAR, for a long time , make no mistake that is what it is. The issue is really simple, either you're here legally or not. I support all here legally , I do not agree with the numbers we let in this country legally, its too much., around 80% of our follow citizens agree, we need a immigration time out to sort this mess out. But per our system I work with in the laws to change that, so I have thick skin after all these years of being called everything in the book, interesting that they attack the rights that I exercise but then turn and use them against us when it fits their cause..
This is a immigration discussion board,??? many topics that do not fit in ROJOS idea of what can and cannot be posted here, are on the board, but like our laws they don't obey, unless it benefits them, if doesn't then we will NOT obey them , seems to be the same about posting on the board.
.The corruption this breeds just spreads to make our society an unbearable place to live in, just like what they are running from they bring with them. So they end up destroying the very freedom and better life they seek , I know I live in the middle of it. We do not live 25 people to a 3 bedroom house in this country, didn't use to any way. We didn't park 5-6 cars on the lawn and destroy the neighborhood .We don't demand they be LIKE US we just ask they respect us, too much I guess. So the respect they demand they do not show to others, it's a two way street. In my book its live and let live, we had over a million people (legal citizens) forced to leave Calif because no one wants to live in this NEW environment. Its hostile, it creates tension and it is flat unhealthy FOR EVER ONE. it's a big country SPREAD OUT!
No one wants to answer this question
If I come and break into your house, force you to pay for my children's education, medical, food ETC...will you welcome me or call the cops?
Any takers ??????

As far as Palestine goes, their has been war in that part of the world since the beginning of recorded history , that is where history started. Around 1750 B.C.E. Abraham was called to his role and that was the start for the Hebrews , the named changed as Gods relationship was passed on to his sons, Isaac, then his Jacob, who 's decedents were called Israelites and their nation was called Israel ,they migrated to Egypt and were made slaves. That ended with the Exodus (thirteen century BCE) under Moses they wander into the Promised land, the area that is roughly the modern nation of Israel toady The period of the Judges lasted from 1210 to 1020 BCE toward the end of this period a new threat came from the Mediterranean The Philistines, thus born the current dispute of "The Lands".
In 586 BCE Judah was conquered by the Babylonians., Jerusalem was destroyed , 538 B C E Cyrus a Persian defeated the Babylonians and permitted the Jewish captives to return to their homeland . This "land" has been taken given back, etc.. so much though history you make the judgment on who OWNS IT ???? But that is its history.

Picker said:

Isreal prosperity becomes with the help of US. But palastine side is still the same or little better then before.
NOW the fight goes on, Palastine people fight with stones and isreal fight with mod weapons. Air attack Or isreal army movement killed whole block or many blocks but palastinians blow himself to kill as many as they can.
It will continue unless America will do something about it.
If america want he can stop the violance , but I guess there is No Oil or other benifits.

We (U.S.) armed the PLO in 1992 or they about, At least $4.5 billion in international aid has been given to the Palestinian Authority since 1994. According to the March World Bank study, the lion's share, $1.1 billion, was given by the U.S. to help build a civil society, establish the necessary infrastructures, and provide humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people. Had all the aid money reached the Palestinian people as originally planned, every Palestinian could be living in his own little villa with at least a Ford in his garage. Instead, the PA leadership got richer even as the rest of the Palestinians remained poor "¹ or became poorer "¹ and terror became the law of the land.

We , the U.S. have come the fare thus ever in mediating a settlement in that region at a great cost to this country,9/11 is the price we have paid and looks like we will pay for a long time to come, O B L has made us pay a price for our involvement here, but yet we are blamed for the PROBLEM, Israel has given the most settlements back ever and was poised to give abandon another settlement the next day of this last attack. They let 800 out of there jails ETC...As long as Palestine will not dis-mantle the terrorists organization from with in their country, the blood shed will continue. I think all Arab nations need to band together and help them do that, there seems to be no solidarity among the nations their when so many people are being killed on both sides. The terror that grips this world has to come to an end for the good of all people, to rationalize it ,only promotes it. What kind of foreign policy is it when you murder innocent people. Target the military I understand target women and children I don't.

Hamas attacks and we yell across the waters to Israel "Show Restraint" ??? I find that full of Hypocrisy, if said attack happened here, as it has, we retaliate, as you should when your people are murdered , so given the current attacks that have ended the truce ,it sad as they were so close. I think Arafat has to go before any more killings happen, he had a choice here when Hamas did this and he said NO to going after Hamas from with in Palestine

Israel to Target More Militant Leaders
12:46 PM EDT,August 22, 2003
By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Israel plans to kill more militant chiefs in raids mirroring a lethal missile strike on a top Hamas leader, Israeli officials warned Friday, as tens of thousands of Palestinians at his funeral promised revenge. (Hamas blows up women & children - Israel responds by blowing up one guy - a leader from the group claiming responsibility - why are the Palestinians promising revenge?)

Palestinian leaders said the killing of Ismail Abu Shanab, a top aide to Hamas chief Ahmed Yassin, ruined an imminent campaign against militants by Palestinian security forces that would have included arrests and weapons roundups. (Oh yeah, I believe that was really just about to happen, wink! wink!)

The militants called off their two-month-old cease-fire and promised more suicide bombings and other attacks on Israeli targets, raising chances that a new round of Mideast violence will sink a U.S.-backed peace plan that aims to stop three years of violence and create a Palestinian state. (calling of the cease-fire - what a bunch of idiots - why didn't they call of the cease-fire prior to blowing up 20 innocent people?)

Hamas quickly dispatched squads of young activists in Gaza to launch homemade rockets into Israel. By Friday morning, six of the crude projectiles had been fired, damaging two houses but causing no injuries. More than a dozen mortars were also launched at Jewish settlements within Gaza, damaging another house. (Hamas trying to kill some more)

Several high ranking Israeli military officials said on condition of anonymity that there were plans to kill other top Hamas leaders if new Palestinian suicide attacks occur and Palestinian police forces make no efforts to arrest extremists.

Speaking at the funeral of Abu Shanab, another Hamas leader, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, who survived an Israeli rocket attack on his car in June, said that if the Israelis kill him and other top militants, a secret leadership is ready to take over.

"They think that targeting leaders will stop Jihad (holy war). They are mistaken," he said. "All of us in Hamas from top to bottom are looking to become like Abu Shanab."
(I hope they all do become just like him - dead)

In the funeral procession in Gaza City, men carried the bodies of Abu Shanab and his two bodyguards. The streets echoed with shouts for revenge. Some in the crowd chanted together a warning for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz: "Sharon and Mofaz listen very well, our retaliation will send you to hell." (Good luck)

A Palestinian suicide bombing on a Jerusalem bus on Tuesday killed 20 people, including six children, prompting Israel's strike on Abu Shanab, 53, trained in the United States as a civil engineer. (Palestinians kill 20, Israel kills one in retaliation)

On Friday, Israel's Maariv newspaper published photos of 34 top Palestinian militants on a deck of cards imitating the U.S. military deck of 55 most-wanted Iraqis. The ace of hearts is Yassin. The joker is Yasser Arafat.

Khaled Batch, an Islamic Jihad leader picked as the nine of clubs, quipped: "We fear only God, not their cards."

An Israeli security source said all Hamas leaders were now considered fair targets and new strikes would be launched after a 24 hour lull to give Palestinians a chance to act on their own against militants. "We were waiting to see even just one Hamas arrest," he said.


The "road map" peace plan launched June 4 requires the Palestinians to dismantle Islamic and other militant groups.

After Tuesday's suicide attack in Jerusalem, aides to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said for the first time that he would go after militants, something he had earlier rejected for fear of setting off civil warfare. But those plans were scrapped after Israel's helicopter attack, which killed Abu Shanab and two bodyguards, the aides said. (Why should Israel wait while its people are being brutally murdered? Abbas had a chance to do this, but he failed)

Palestinian legislator Ziad Abu Zayyad said the renewed violence threatens to topple the already weak prime minister -- also known as Abu Mazen -- who was appointed in April under pressure from U.S. and Israeli leaders searching for an alternative to Arafat.

"If this situation continues, Abu Mazen will not last long," Abu Zayyad said. "Those interested in Abu Mazen's success must pressure Israel to stop undermining his government."

Abbas, largely failing to win his own people's support because talks with Israel did not produce the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners, appeared to be losing confidence among Israelis as well.

A poll published Friday, found that only 35 percent of Israelis thought peace talks with Abbas should continue following Tuesday's bombing. The survey of 501 adults by the Dahaf polling company was printed in the Yediot Ahronot newspaper and quoted a margin of error of 4.5 percent.

Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner said Israel's strikes on militants were necessary to move along the road to peace. "The strategy is legitimate self-defense," he said. "We go only after those who hit us."

Meanwhile, Israeli soldiers again set up road blocks along Gaza's main north-south highway, effectively cutting the strip in half. Hundreds of motorists were stranded on the roadway, which had been briefly reopened in one of Israel's most significant gestures Israel to improve the daily lives of ordinary Palestinians.

The military said it closed the road to try to stop the firing of rockets into Israel.

Egypt sent an adviser to President Hosni Mubarak, Osama el-Baz, to meet with Arafat and Abbas, in an apparent effort to try to salvage the cease-fire. Egypt could influence radical groups and was "ready to exert every effort to help us" avoid civil war with the militants, Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath said.

But Palestinian officials said the envoy, who also met Israel's foreign minister, came without concrete proposals.

In the West Bank, Israeli tanks and other armored vehicles rolled into the towns of Jenin, Tulkarem and Nablus for a second night of raids searching for wanted Palestinians. Troops used explosives to demolish three houses that belonged to the families of militants who carried out attacks.

[SKS]

Hello acelaw, same old arguments huh?

"If I come and break into your house, force you to pay for my children's education, medical, food ETC...will you welcome me or call the cops?
Any takers ??????"

I took this on several months ago, remember? Why do you ask them same tired question? (And why do I respond!!)

Nice try, but that is a silly analogy. First of all, unlike the U.S., you would NOT be able to break into my house. I have a system set up where people must ask my permission before entering and they are welcome. But, they must leave when I tell them to. Your example is flawed because it will never happen at my house. ........ Now if the U.S. had a system to prevent this it would be the same, but we don't.....

[acelaw]

SKS How are you?

Oh really well what is your system, we have one, its called the law, but they chose to ignore it, unless of course it benefits them, then there all over it, they even break the law in Mexico by leaving that country, so lets hear you great system,?


Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.
In addition to sneaking into the country in violation of the immigration law that requires that aliens be documented for legal entry (referred to as "entry without inspection -- EWI"), others enter with legal documentation and then violate the terms on which they have been admitted by taking jobs that are not authorized or overstaying the authorized period of stay in the country. The INS estimated in 1996 that about 60 percent of the then estimated five million illegal immigrants were EWI and 40 percent were overstayers. Both types of illegal immigrants are deportable under Immigration and Nationality Act Section 237 (a)(1)(B) which says:
"Any alien who is present in the United States in violation of this Act or any other law of the United States is deportable."
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS NOT A VICTIMLESS CRIME
Apologists for illegal immigration like to paint it as a victimless crime. But in fact, illegal immigration causes substantial harm to American citizens and legal immigrants, particularly those in the most vulnerable sectors of our population--the poor, minorities, and children.
Illegal immigration causes an enormous drain on public funds. The seminal study of the costs of immigration by the National Academy of Sciences found that the taxes paid by immigrants do not cover the cost of services received by them. We cannot provide high quality education, health care, and retirement security for our own people if we continue to bring in endless numbers of poor, unskilled immigrants.
Additionally, job competition by waves of illegal immigrants willing to work at substandard wages and working conditions depresses the wages of American workers, hitting hardest at minority workers and those without high school degrees.
Illegal immigration also contributes to the dramatic population growth overwhelming communities across America--crowding school classrooms, consuming already limited affordable housing, and straining precious natural resources like water, energy, and forestland.
And Chippiemonk, Lurker also break our laws by:

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)
"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."
Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:
* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.


THIS IS MEXICOS LAWS:

Migration of Mexican citizens is governed by the Ley General de Poblacion of 1974 (General Population Law), most recently amended in 1990. That law forbids surreptitious entry into neighboring nations. Article 11, Chapter 5 states:
International transit of persons through ports, airports or borders may only be effected through the places designated for it and within the time periods established for it, and with the involvement of the migration authorities.
Article 78, Chapter 4, of the General Population Law requires Mexicans intending to emigrate to meet the following conditions:
Identify themselves and provide personal data to migration officials.
Present proof that they meet all entry requirements under the laws of the country of their destination.
Obtain for presentation to migration officials at the port of departure documentary proof that the intending emigrant is not a fugitive from justice or subject to a court order.
If emigrating to work, be in possession of a work contract with adequate salary approved by the local labor board. Migration officials must have the conditions of employment in writing, approved by the Consul of the country of destination.
Other provisions require the possession of Mexican passports for most categories of Mexicans traveling abroad. Certainly, a strong statutory basis exists if the Mexican government opts to control border flows with greater rigor.

[SKS]

Same old questions huh? I've told you my system hundreds of times already.

"Oh really well what is your system, we have one, its called the law,"

So, we should do nothing then??? What is your SOLUTION? More flawed logic. Living in Los Angeles we have had many crime waves and serious problems with certain issues. Lets say murder. If I ask Chief Bratton, "Sir, there are rising numbers of murders, what are you going to do?" And he says, "Well....uh...nothing we have laws on that already." How silly would that be?

"but they chose to ignore it, unless of course it benefits them, then there all over it, they even break the law in Mexico by leaving that country, so lets hear you great system,?"

Keep in mind that any new laws mean nothing without an efficient INS, BCIS, or whatever the hell it is called now. We have enough laws aleady, it's the implementation that is flawed.
245(i) is a great start. Contrary to popular opinion it is not amnesty, just allows people to adjust here. A WELL-MONITORED guest worker program would also be a good idea. I'm not going to put people to sleep with a lengthy post on my system because I've done it many times already.

What is your proposal?? (Let's see if it is different than the previous "Round'em all up")


***For the record, don't cut and paste or post lengthy articles because they are much ado about nothing.

[acelaw]

Address Mexicos laws ???

[SKS]

Acelaw,

I am not an expert on Mexican immigration laws. Frankly, I don't care either. I only care about the United States and what we SHOULD do. I know what Mexico SHOULD do. I know what laws they SHOULD pass. But there is no point in stating what ought to happen because it isn't going to, it's called facing reality. I know it is hard to do at times, but try it.

Again, describe your solution?? (If it is different than before!!)