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Thread: JUST IN: DREAM Act Set For November 29th Vote

  1. #11
    And I will add more.

    I got a feeling this is aimed not at solving a problem and restore some fairness to the process. This is about creating a mechanism so restrictive that nobody will benefit from it. Dead on arrival, sort of speaking.

    A lot of the immigration bills that were considered were like this too. One in particular, made it a crime to obtain employment without authorization while demanding aliens to be employed to seek legalization. There you go, a closed loop, to be eligible you had to become ineligible too. Tricks, they're not gonna solve anything but make a problem worse.

    This should be about a REALISTIC solution to deal with a very sad problem. Thousands and thousands of kids are now paying a price they never were aware of because of the actions of their parents many, many years ago. That alone is un-American, and you should know that.

  2. #12
    EXPLAIN TO ME THE FOLLOWING:

    Why should they face any trouble in getting a greencard? WHY?

    They are here not because of their choice. They have done what any good kid should do, go to school and study. They have assimilated into the community, speak English, are willing to take an oath of allegiance... What's the big problem?

    Lip service? So, the same oath that made Washington a citizen, his own device, is that lip service?

    I mean, yeah, I know the kids are foreigners, but give me a break here, that doesn't make them intrinsically bad or evil.

    What's the difference between a kid who's brought here by the parents when she or he was 1 and the little brother or sister that was born here right after entry? Same parents, same background, same culture. Neither of them decided where to be born or how to go about things, they just did what they were told like any other kid. The 14th Amendment is designed to stop slavery, by declaring every person a citizen, but now you get this little loophole. Oh, I know, eliminate the 14th amendment, right? Sure, you do that and you'll immediately have a system of inequalities ripe for abuse.

    So much weight on the character of a person cannot be placed upon a mere chance, meaning your place of birth. Was Alexander Hamilton a "lower" founding father? He wasn't born here, he wasn't even raised here for the most part. So, he was some sort of dumb individual just trying to scam... WRONG, obviously. Einstein? How about him? He wrote the letter to FDR that resulted in the Manhattan project, it was his science they used... But he wasn't born here either!

    All this hate against immigrants and foreigners, nobody seems to remember that if it wasn't for the French you'd be singing God Save the Queen now. Oh but that doesn't matter. The KKK, a TERRORIST GROUP, talks about nuking every country that's not white, but they forget nukes come from Einstein, an immigrant person of jewish faith, and others like Fermi and Teller.

    People demonize Mexico, they want to build a fence because of terrorism.. you know, it's about national security... But the one terrorist who jumped the border did so at the canadian line. National security or color of skin? Then that comment I saw about Poland.. Ignorance to the extreme. Copernicus? He came from there. Deal with that. Then there's the stuff about kids, students... 50% of PhD students are foreign born, lots of them chinese, and now China wants them back. The result? This country is falling behind BIG TIME. If you REALLY care about the U.S., you'd look for solutions that will benefit the nation. Reality is different, this is an EXCUSE for people to have at immigrants, the new "blacks", the new target.



    To me, it's absurd, this entire thing is absurd. Being an american is not about place of birth, it's about what you stand for. Not the same as being a USC. Those kids are as american as apple pie, that, by the way, came from Germany.

  3. #13
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by iperson:
    It amazes me the lack of any human empathy on the part of 4now.
    Do you 4now propose that all undocumented women enlist to military service as well? If not, what proposals would you have for female immigrants? Fill America's brothels maybe or force them into labor camps of some sort. Inquiring minds want to know.

    Unlawful stay in this country is "mala prohibita", a violation of a regulation requiring no evil intent or deprived conduct. Unlawful stay is not mala in se but mala prohibita... there's no evil, deprived conduct involved, but a violation of required documentation.

    There's a clear discrepancy between the 'crime', which unlawful presence is not (it is not CIMT). And the harsh punishment for such proposed by 4now, both not matching each other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There's no crime, unlawful stay here is not a crime. The crime is unlawful entry, and that is divisible....

    What you see here is an attempt to create a system that's harsh, drastic but NOT because it's the right thing to do but in a clear attempt to please the crowd... Watch them suffer, watch them die for their food, happy now? Ok, now is it ok to give them a greencard?

    This is REPULSIVE, and it's based on an idea to blame the kids for what the parents did. That is DESPOTIC.

  4. #14
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
    EXPLAIN TO ME THE FOLLOWING:

    Why should they face any trouble in getting a greencard? WHY?


    <span class="ev_code_RED">Why should they get a greencard for no reason. What is the basis of them getting a greencard? Every body has a basis for getting a greencard. Family based, employed based, asylum, refugee . What is their basis...NONE.
    So we have to create a basis for them to receive the greencard. It will be realistic and reasonable.

    4years military active duty is not reasonable? It certainly is realistic in the eyes of most americans. It is a sacrifice of a person's life for 4 years to do service for the country that they have and will pledge allegience to. That is the basis of the greencard. military. I dont know of any category in uscis that says get green card for free with no basis.



    However, I am open to hearing what type of community service you are proposing and for how long. Keep in mind that green card would be obtained after the service was completed and verified.
    </span>


    They are here not because of their choice. They have done what any good kid should do, go to school and study. They have assimilated into the community, speak English, are willing to take an oath of allegiance... What's the big problem?


    <span class="ev_code_RED">They were FORCED to go to school, and had no choice but to learn english. Taking an oath is lip service. Is 4 years such a big deal or problem?</span>

    Lip service? So, the same oath that made Washington a citizen, his own device, is that lip service?

    <span class="ev_code_RED">He did military service, did he not?</span>

    I mean, yeah, I know the kids are foreigners, but give me a break here, that doesn't make them intrinsically bad or evil.

    <span class="ev_code_RED">Who said they are bad or evil? Is serving in the military considered bad or evil punishment now? I thought it was considered an honor to serve your country. They should be honored to serve this country as their basis in order to obtain the greencard. </span>

    I got a feeling this is aimed not at solving a problem and restore some fairness to the process. This is about creating a mechanism so restrictive that nobody will benefit from it. Dead on arrival, sort of speaking.


    <span class="ev_code_RED">Baloney. Restrictive? Here is a solution to get your greencard and be legal on path to citizenship. 4 years military active duty. We will thank you for your service in honoring your new found country, and we will be happy to reward you with the GI bill for education benefits if you so desire. This is a problem</span>

    This should be about a REALISTIC solution to deal with a very sad problem. Thousands and thousands of kids are now paying a price they never were aware of because of the actions of their parents many, many years ago. That alone is un-American, and you should know that.


    <span class="ev_code_RED">Cut the un american bul.lcra,p. I know that it is not un american as you say. Our immigratrion laws have a basis. We cannot give these illegal kids a free greencard. That would be unamerican. We are being american by offering them opportunity to become legal. The 4 years active military is realistic and reasonable and american. Even the current bill proposed will not allow All of these kids to get a greencard. It is not their fault, but it is not usa fault either. USa would be offering a fair and reasonable solution in exchange for a greencard. IF it is not worth risking their life for tihs country to obtain, then I do not feel they are worthy of getting a card . Let them marry, apply for f1, or some other means that carries a basis to get their greencard then. </span>



    </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

  5. #15
    Realistic and reasonable because YOU don't have to do it. Because in your reality, that seems reasonable. But the law won't apply to you, the law will apply to lots of people you simply DO NOT KNOW.

    Unamerican to the bone. Did you forget what happened here? All men are created equal. Remember that? What happened to the pursuit of happiness? Why are kids blamed for what they didn't do? That is unamerican.

    This mess is happening now because of laws that were designed to please certain groups, not to solve a problem. The result is a law that lacks flexibility, a law that's designed to impede immigration instead of channeling immigration in a way that's beneficial to the United States.

    A lot of provisions of INA violate due process. It's not my call, it's the opinion of the court. Several challenges have resulted in portions of INA being invalidated. So, you're telling me Congressmen didn't know the constitution? Of course they do know it, but they do not care, when the law falls it'll be the Court's fault! Nothing like saying "judicial activism" to make yourself look good.

    You want to apply those measures. Great. Then make the PARENTS do the service, make the PARENTS enlist and fight. Leave the kids alone, they didn't so anything but what they were supposed to do.

  6. #16
    If this bill is to be comprehensive surely it needs to include provisions to make sure it is not needed again.

    It is truly a one off so that children are not forced into this position by selfish parents.

    I do not see anything.

    PS What about those too stupid or challenged to qualify? Do not the comments apply to them?

  7. #17
    This will not solve anything. It won't fix anything, and it won't prevent anything from happening again.

    What needs to happen, but I'm afraid it never will, is for all of us to take the blinds off, to look at this for what it really is.

    This is a system that has been a victim of itself, a system that has been distorted and mangled by special interest groups, racists and haters. This is a system that obstructs legal immigration and turns a blind eye on the illegal, only to come after them later on with a vengeance and excesive punishment that only results in one thing... a MAJOR MESS.

    You have no flexibility, zero, so you can't adapt, you can't contain the flood, you can't do anything... when things get out of hand, you have an impossible choice, mass removals or amnesty.

    The law needs to change, it needs to change NOW. It needs to become a vehicle instead of a barrier, it needs to be cleansed of absurd xenophobic concepts and be based on a dynamic reality is must face head on, control and deal with.

  8. #18
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by iperson:
    It is nothing short of repulsive and despotic, just because people like 4now can dictate conditions irrespective of the Constitution, and nothing, no single law enacted by legislative bodies should supersede the Constitution. The Constitution requires due process to all persons present on the soil of the United States irrespective of immigration status. Unlawful presence is not a crime. If there is no crime, no evil intent provable esp. in cases of kids brought to the US without their consent or knowledge, then there is no punishment applicable.

    Today's laws (Patriot Act as an example) transgress, trespass and override the Constitution, which tears the fabric of this country, and degrades it.
    That is un-American. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Due process is a meaningful opportunity to be heard. Meaningful is a word that changes according to the penalties you face and the severity of the situation. Hence, you don't have the same "amount" of due process if you steal a candy bar than you'd have if you stole a car, for example. This has nothing to do with intent though.

    And this reminds me of the beauty of HR4437 and what was written there, criminalizing illegal presence. When you commit a crime, you're to be judged by the laws that were in place at the time the offense was committed. But that bill would have turned illegal aliens into felons in one single instance. That is called ENTRAPMENT because the offense would be a "continuing" offense, hence, you're suddenly a felon without a chance to conform by the law given the new penalties. Completely unconstitutional.

    Oh, but it was passed by the House, it wasn't supposed to make it to the final draft that came out of the Senate Judiciary but somehow some of it filtered in...

    Why all this? A political maneuver to get the votes... the votes of THE IGNORANT who call themselves American without bothering to read the very same document that grants them that privilege.

    IT'S NOTHING BUT BULL, TONS OF IT, TONS!!!! And here we are, talking about aliens like they are subhuman and an inconvenience. Let me break it to you, we're ALL HUMAN, we're ALL HERE, TOGETHER, and if you wanna solve it then it's time to stop the hate and for once, think about the country first and not your own selfish goals. THAT is patriotism, not shouting "deport them all" without bothering to check what that would do to the nation as a whole.

  9. #19
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Houston:
    Realistic and reasonable because YOU don't have to do it. Because in your reality, that seems reasonable. But the law won't apply to you, the law will apply to lots of people you simply DO NOT KNOW.

    Unamerican to the bone. Did you forget what happened here? All men are created equal. Remember that? What happened to the pursuit of happiness? Why are kids blamed for what they didn't do? That is unamerican.

    This mess is happening now because of laws that were designed to please certain groups, not to solve a problem. The result is a law that lacks flexibility, a law that's designed to impede immigration instead of channeling immigration in a way that's beneficial to the United States.

    A lot of provisions of INA violate due process. It's not my call, it's the opinion of the court. Several challenges have resulted in portions of INA being invalidated. So, you're telling me Congressmen didn't know the constitution? Of course they do know it, but they do not care, when the law falls it'll be the Court's fault! Nothing like saying "judicial activism" to make yourself look good.

    You want to apply those measures. Great. Then make the PARENTS do the service, make the PARENTS enlist and fight. Leave the kids alone, they didn't so anything but what they were supposed to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Yea.. That is fine, let the parents volunteer to enlist for 4 years active military for one kid to get a greencard. Another 4 years for the next illegal kid to get greencard. Im cool with that. When they complete the service, the illegal child sponsered from the military service can get legal. Make the parent legal too if he files 4 years active military service.

    But I know you dont really want that either, you just want amnesty given to all here. That is irresponsible and unamerican.

  10. #20
    Nope. I believe in community service because it teaches them to integrate and be considerate of others, even if that has to be taught the hard way.

    I believe the parents should also pay a fine, to help reimburse the costs.

    But I don't believe in blaming the kids.

    HOWEVER... that said, you have to consider this seriously.

    Again, if the parents say no, the kids are already here, so what now? Blame them by deporting them even if they want to stay?

    It's not as straight forward as you think, 4now, the danger here is creating some half-a$$ed bill that will solve nothing.

    I don't believe in Amnesty, but I do believe that you have to deal with things in a realistic way, or you're bound to repeat the mistakes of the past.

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