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Thread: Lurker Well, I for one agree completely with Vera - and there are many others who do as well. We cannot relax as long as the Bush family continues to use their money, connections and family name to steamroll over democracy and the Constitution. If w

  1. #1
    Lunker
    Do you think these folks (legal US citizens) that have been murdered by folks here illegally have had their Constitutionally Rights violated???? You use our rights and freedoms only when it suits you.

    CUT OFF ILLEGAL ALIENS
    Editor -- As a Mexican American whose son was killed by an illegal alien, my blood boils when I read your Aug. 5 editorial, "Revisiting immigration," which advocates an amnesty for 3 million illegal Mexican aliens!
    Illegal aliens have taken jobs that we Americans want. California is broke. Our schools are full. Many of our hospitals are bankrupt because they have to deliver the babies of illegal Mexican women free of charge. Your editorial should urge the federal government to deport all those who have broken our laws. Californians should not spend billions of dollars on services to illegal aliens in the state.
    ANGIE MORFIN-VARGAS
    Salinas


    U.S. Constitution: Fifth Amendment
    Fifth Amendment - Rights of Persons
    Amendment Text | Annotations
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    Do you think the taxes I pay for people here illegally which is my private property are taken for PUBLIC USE with out just compensation???

    U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment
    Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection
    Amendment Text | Annotations
    Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Do you think we are getting Equal protection , LOLOLOL ,when you advocate the violation of our laws and Constitution. What a hypocrite your are!!!!! Oh ,but let someone violate you and you cry to the havens.

  2. #2
    Lunker
    Do you think these folks (legal US citizens) that have been murdered by folks here illegally have had their Constitutionally Rights violated???? You use our rights and freedoms only when it suits you.

    CUT OFF ILLEGAL ALIENS
    Editor -- As a Mexican American whose son was killed by an illegal alien, my blood boils when I read your Aug. 5 editorial, "Revisiting immigration," which advocates an amnesty for 3 million illegal Mexican aliens!
    Illegal aliens have taken jobs that we Americans want. California is broke. Our schools are full. Many of our hospitals are bankrupt because they have to deliver the babies of illegal Mexican women free of charge. Your editorial should urge the federal government to deport all those who have broken our laws. Californians should not spend billions of dollars on services to illegal aliens in the state.
    ANGIE MORFIN-VARGAS
    Salinas


    U.S. Constitution: Fifth Amendment
    Fifth Amendment - Rights of Persons
    Amendment Text | Annotations
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    Do you think the taxes I pay for people here illegally which is my private property are taken for PUBLIC USE with out just compensation???

    U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment
    Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection
    Amendment Text | Annotations
    Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Do you think we are getting Equal protection , LOLOLOL ,when you advocate the violation of our laws and Constitution. What a hypocrite your are!!!!! Oh ,but let someone violate you and you cry to the havens.

  3. #3
    Guest
    Acelaw:

    1) Murderers are criminals, subject to processes and punishments codified by laws precisely like the ones you cite (5th and 14th amendments and others). All murderers, whether they are illegal immigrants or citizens (as are, of course, the overwhelming percentage of murderers in this country), are subject to the laws regarding crime and punishment. The law works very well no matter the status of the murderer. Your rights as a citizen against such criminals are well-protected and enforced.

    2) On the other hand, right now the highest office in the land is held by a person who obtained that post through inaccurate processes at best and voter fraud at worst; who greased his way to the top with millions of dollars from those among the richest 1% of Americans (who have more millions to be gained by ensuring his rise); who begins wars under false pretenses and sends his country's young men and women to die as a way to deflect voters' attention away from his leadership failures; who strips YOUR rights to privacy as a US citizen in order to get around the annoying practice of due process; who claims his religious beliefs are a good enough reason to overturn the separation of church and state - THIS is the profile of someone trampling your rights as a citizen, ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights. THIS is who you should fear instead of the Spanish-speaking gardener down the street.

  4. #4
    Guest
    Amen Lurker!

  5. #5
    THE QUESTION WAS, HAVE THESE FOLKS KILLED BY ILLEGAL ALIENS (NOT ALL SPEAK SPANISH) HAD THEIR CONSTITUTIONLY RIGHTS VIOLATED?

    HAS EVERY U.S CITIZEN HAD THERE TAX MONIES TAKEN ILLEGALY BY THOSE THAT VIOLATE OUR CONSTITUTION?

    You do not deserve protection under those documents because you violate the freedoms they protect for your own selfish reasons, you're the problem in this country , not the answer.

    INJUSTICE DONE TO ONE, IS AN INJUSTICE TO ALL
    MLK
    Karma will return to you what you put out.

  6. #6
    Guest
    Amen Lena!

  7. #7
    +



    www.sfgate.com Return to regular view
    How killers in state stay untouchable
    Mexican court scraps extradition treaty -- frustrated California D.A.s won't cut deals
    Maria Alicia Gaura, Chronicle Staff Writer
    Sunday, August 10, 2003
    2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback


    URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...0/MN148065.DTL



    After a months-long search, Santa Cruz County investigators found the man accused of a brutal attack in which he allegedly slashed a girl's throat and then raped her friend.

    Trouble is, the only way to get him is to cut a deal.

    Suspect Miguel Loza is behind bars in a Mexico City jail. But Mexican authorities refuse to send him to the United States to stand trial unless he is guaranteed parole.

    The dilemma facing Santa Cruz prosecutors -- whether to reduce charges for a heinous crime or risk leaving a suspected killer, rapist and child molester on the loose -- has become increasingly common for district attorneys throughout the state since October 2001. That was when Mexico's Supreme Court ruled that life in prison, or any term without guaranteed parole, constitutes cruel and unusual punishment under Mexico's constitution.

    That decision supersedes the 1980 U.S.-Mexico Extradition Treaty, a document that allowed Mexico to refuse extradition of suspects facing the death penalty in the United States.

    U.S. prosecutors tended to accept that limitation and substitute a life sentence. But after the Mexican high court's recent ruling, a life sentence for first-degree murder is no longer an option. District attorneys are refusing to compromise.

    "We wait till he comes back and arrest him in the U.S.," said Santa Cruz County Chief Deputy District Attorney Ariadne Symons. 'It's not much of a plan,

    but it's all we've got. I think there's a good chance he'll come back, because his family's here."


    EXTRADITION DENIED
    Extradition is now routinely denied in more than 40 categories of serious crime that are punishable by possible life terms under California law, including murder, rape, child molestation, kidnapping for ransom and train wrecking, among others.

    Nobody knows how many criminal fugitives from California are in Mexico. But Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Janice Maurizi has compiled a partial database with worrisome numbers.

    "I have a list of 246 names of cases where we know the fugitive has fled to Mexico," Maurizi said. "Most of them are from Los Angeles, and probably 95 percent are murders."

    In the Santa Cruz case, the 17-year-old slashing victim died last week after six months of being in a vegetative state. She never regained consciousness after the Feb. 10 attack.

    Advocates for victims' rights, prosecutors and victims of violent crimes are lobbying federal officials to pressure the Mexican government to change the law.

    "Now, in California, we cannot give the assurances that Mexico is seeking unless we down-charge murder, for instance, to manslaughter or assault," Maurizi said.


    STATE DAS STAND FAST
    "That is a pretty dramatic change, and almost every district attorney in the state has decided against (reducing charges) in these very serious cases," she said. "It's an equal protection argument. Do you get a special break just because you made it across the border?"

    As for Loza, the pending charges of homicide, sodomy, assault with a deadly weapon and forcible *** assault on a child would have to be reduced to the level of manslaughter before Mexico would allow extradition.

    Santa Cruz District Attorney Bob Lee says justice would not be served by giving Loza a break.

    "That attitude is insulting to the young women who were victimized in this case," Lee said. "There is no statute of limitations on the crimes he has committed here. . . . And if he is ever found in the U.S., we will prosecute him, even if it's in 10 or 20 years."


    COMPLICATED SITUATION
    The situation is complicated by other elements of Mexican law.

    If U.S. prosecutors request extradition of a suspect and it is denied, the case is automatically turned over to Mexican authorities for trial. Under the extradition treaty, prosecutors in the United States can send evidence to Mexico and prosecute a case there.

    But no matter the result of that trial, California authorities are bound to accept the case as closed, because state law recognizes the result of foreign prosecutions, and retrying the case would result in double jeopardy for the defendant.

    The automatic trials following denied extradition are a sore point for Maurizi, who says they sometimes serve as a "get out of jail free" ticket, even though Mexican law allows for a maximum sentence of 60 years in the most serious cases.

    "In the past, we allowed Mexico to prosecute many of those cases," Maurizi said. "But then I started tracking those cases and found the results were very unpredictable."

    In a majority of the cases she studied, the suspect was never arrested, Maurizi said. In others, mostly homicides, sentences frequently ranged from three to eight years.

    And then appeals kicked in.

    "We had one murderer who got eight years initially, but that was reduced to some weekends on appeal," Maurizi said. "A short time later, he ended up back in L.A., walking around free, and there's nothing we could do to him."

    In a letter signed by all of the 58 district attorneys in the state, the California District Attorneys Association last year urged U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to address California's growing extradition crisis.


    TEMPTING OPTION FOR CRIMINALS
    "The policy of the Mexican government sends a powerful message that a person can commit a heinous crime in California and escape from justice for the price of a bus ticket across the border," the letter said.

    Mexican authorities defend their constitutional protections, which they say more closely resemble standards in Europe and other developed countries than the increasingly harsh criminal penalties being enacted in the United States.

    "I think the (Supreme Court) decision was a progressive one," said Enrique Cepeda, regional attache to the Western United States for the Attorney General of Mexico.

    "There are almost no European countries that still have the death penalty, and the tendency (in developed countries) is to abolish the death penalty and reduce prison sentences. Our tradition is of rehabilitation, and the Supreme Court doesn't want to lose sight of that," Cepeda said.

    "But we do have very harsh penalties for homicide and first-degree murder --

    up to 60 years of imprisonment. For a person in their 20s, that is essentially life imprisonment."

    Changing the new extradition rules would be difficult because they are based on Mexico's constitution, and U.S. officials would probably be better off working within the Mexican system, Cepeda said.

    "In cases where we get all the documentation and forensics, we can prepare a strong case and get sentences of up to 60 years," Cepeda said. "If the evidence is not so strong, suspects may get the minimum, which is two years in a homicide depending on how it was committed."

    It's not that different from the U.S.," Cepeda said, "where if you don't have good evidence and the person gets a good defense attorney, they may be acquitted."

    While acknowledging that the extradition conflict is a "real hot-burner issue" between California and Mexico, Special Assistant California Attorney General Alberto Gonza*** emphasized diplomacy as the best way to resolve the problem.

    "Our diplomacy has been to highlight to Mexico the importance of these cases," Gonza*** said. "We want their judges to act accordingly, we want to work together in that regard.' "

    Rather than push for extradition, California prosecutors will be more willing to work with their Mexican counterparts if Mexico can show that cases are vigorously prosecuted and that the sentences are actually served, Gonza*** said.

    Both Gonza*** and Cepeda noted that Mexico's attorney general set up a task force in 1994 to focus on U.S. cases prosecuted in Mexico City and track the outcome. Cepeda said that the task force's conviction rate has been high -- with only 13 outright acquittals of 180 cases.


    FEINSTEIN PROTESTS
    Just last month, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., sent a letter to Mexican President Vicente Fox detailing four heinous crimes and asserting that the perpetrators escaped justice by fleeing to Mexico.

    "A grave danger exists that Mexico will become a safe haven for serious criminals," Feinstein wrote.

    While imploring Fox to take action, however, Feinstein did not propose what that action might be.

    Los Angeles resident Anabella Vara's ex-husband, Daniel Perez, shot her in the head and was tried and convicted of attempting to kill her. Perez allegedly killed her father for testifying against him at the trial and is wanted in the slaying of a witness. He is now believed to be in Mexico. Vara is working to organize victims whose tormentors are fugitives from justice in Mexico.

    "One of the reasons I think this issue hasn't been picked up is that someone always wants to make it an anti-immigrant thing, an anti-Mexican issue, " Vara said. "I think that's missing the point. You don't have to be an illegal immigrant, all you need is a Hispanic surname and the Mexican government will protect you.

    "My ex-husband was 2 years old when he got here," Vara said. "We had a home here and he worked for the state. He's as much a U.S. citizen as anyone else."

    Vara's ex-husband fled to Mexico in the middle of his trial. He was found guilty of attempting to kill her. But the Mexican government won't recognize Perez's conviction since he was sentenced in absentia, a detail that makes Vara's blood boil.

    "Who the hell is Mexico to enforce their judicial system on me?" Vara said. "That criminal committed his crime in this land. If I believed in the Mexican system I would live there. But somehow it is still following us."

    The fact that Perez is still at large rankles Maurizi, too.

    "He's down there with his new family, sipping margaritas and laughing at the system," she said. "They won't extradite unless we drop (down) this premeditated murder of a witness to manslaughter."

    E-mail Maria Alicia Gaura at mgaura@sfchronicle.com.

    2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback

    Page A - 1

  8. #8
    Guest
    "You do not deserve protection under those documents because you violate the freedoms they protect for your own selfish reasons, you're the problem in this country , not the answer."

    Umm, Acelaw, maybe you have forgotten from my many other posts regarding WHY I am even on this board (or more likely, maybe you never read them) - but I am a boring white native Minnesotan, third-generation Icelandic/English woman. Now, if you want to say I'm the problem because I fell in love with a South American man, that's fine. But please at least try to remember that not everyone posting on this board is an illegal Mexican immigrant! It makes it even harder to take you seriously when you cannot follow the threads of conversation.

  9. #9
    It seems you can't follow the thread, I asked:

    HAVE THESE FOLKS KILLED BY ILLEGAL ALIENS (NOT ALL SPEAK SPANISH) HAD THEIR CONSTITUTIONLY RIGHTS VIOLATED?

    HAS EVERY U.S CITIZEN HAD THERE TAX MONIES TAKEN ILLEGALY BY THOSE THAT VIOLATE OUR CONSTATITON AND THUS VIOLATE U.S. CITIZENS RIGHTS?
    What does any of this **** you write have to do with those questions?



    posted August 08, 2003 04:09 PM
    Acelaw:

    1) Murderers are criminals, subject to processes and punishments codified by laws precisely like the ones you cite (5th and 14th amendments and others). All murderers, whether they are illegal immigrants or citizens (as are, of course, the overwhelming percentage of murderers in this country), are subject to the laws regarding crime and punishment. The law works very well no matter the status of the murderer. Your rights as a citizen against such criminals are well-protected and enforced.

    2) On the other hand, right now the highest office in the land is held by a person who obtained that post through inaccurate processes at best and voter fraud at worst; who greased his way to the top with millions of dollars from those among the richest 1% of Americans (who have more millions to be gained by ensuring his rise); who begins wars under false pretenses and sends his country's young men and women to die as a way to deflect voters' attention away from his leadership failures; who strips YOUR rights to privacy as a US citizen in order to get around the annoying practice of due process; who claims his religious beliefs are a good enough reason to overturn the separation of church and state - THIS is the profile of someone trampling your rights as a citizen, ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights. THIS is who you should fear instead of the Spanish-speaking gardener down the street.

  10. #10
    Guest
    Acelaw, what do you do for a living?

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