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Illegal Immigration 101: result of economic need

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  • Illegal Immigration 101: result of economic need

    It's simple. If American employers would not be willing to hire illegal aliens, then they would not come. But, as you and I know, economics is a lot stronger than your personal feelings on how the law should be enforced. If you own a business and need to stay profitable, you will attempt to keep your labor costs down. Your choices: 1) hire an unstable out of high school kid for $10/hr that will leave in 6 months. 2) hire a ex-convict or disgruntled person that has personal problems for $10/hr. 3)hire a hungry illegal immigrant that will bust his butt daily to keep this job --oh, by the way...at $7/hr. It takes a first grader to decide what's best for that business to be profitable... Is this hard for all of you to understand this concept? Don't blame the illegal aliens, blame yourselves --- but maybe, you don't mind this issue after you put your $$ hat on.

  • #2
    It's simple. If American employers would not be willing to hire illegal aliens, then they would not come. But, as you and I know, economics is a lot stronger than your personal feelings on how the law should be enforced. If you own a business and need to stay profitable, you will attempt to keep your labor costs down. Your choices: 1) hire an unstable out of high school kid for $10/hr that will leave in 6 months. 2) hire a ex-convict or disgruntled person that has personal problems for $10/hr. 3)hire a hungry illegal immigrant that will bust his butt daily to keep this job --oh, by the way...at $7/hr. It takes a first grader to decide what's best for that business to be profitable... Is this hard for all of you to understand this concept? Don't blame the illegal aliens, blame yourselves --- but maybe, you don't mind this issue after you put your $$ hat on.

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    • #3
      It may shock you, matrix maker, but what employers want really isn't what this Republic is based on. There is no "right" to succeed under capitalism; rather, the contrary. Furthermore, employers may want cheap labor, but they pass the costs of that labor on to the rest of us. Better that the people who actually use a product or service pay fair market value for it, than that the rest of society subsidize them. Then, too--if employers REALLY want cheap labor, why not just re-institute slavery?

      Your argument is also wrong--people do not always want or even prefer the lowest price. In fact, under monopolistic competition, which is what most businesses in this country operate under, the idea is to differentiate your product or service from others on aspects other than price. Target, for example, has done this against Wal-Mart by creating good design at a good price (although not necessarily the LOWEST price). For some products, a high price is actually desirable--think of "status" items such as Ipod, various athletic shoes, Rolex watches, and the like. What employers are usually concerned with is not pleasing the customer, but in keeping THEIR PROFITS UP INTO THE STRATOSPHERE.

      I certainly do blame employers for breaking the laws, but I also blame illegal aliens. How many of them are being kidnapped and brought here against their will? They're not innocents in this, and don't deserve to have their part in it ignored.

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      • #4
        If we don't allow the Immigrants (Illegal or legal) to do the lower paying jobs, if you will, doesn't this force the work out of our country though? I believe we want to keep as many jobs in the US to allow economic growth. If the jobs disipate then don't we all lose?

        We cannot blame the fall of the US ecoonomy on migrant workers solely. We can incorporate blame on CEO's that need 25 million dollar vacation homes, and companies that over pay the American worker their retirement benefits (GM). Look how these millions of people are going to suffer, and they are all legal status.

        No blame here can be placed on the migrant workers!!!

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        • #5
          Now, just how are farmers going to outsource picking crops? How will owners of buildings outsource cleaning them? How will construction companies have buildings built overseas?

          In other words, the jobs that illegal aliens are doing are the jobs that need to be done in THIS COUNTRY, and are likely to be the only alternatives left as we see the outsourcing of work which can be done overseas, such as manufacturing or computer programming. Just what are the workers being laid off from manufacturing jobs going to do--become doctors? scientists? More likely, they'll be competing with illegal aliens for construction jobs, cleaning, gardening, etc.

          Those benefits to corporate honchos you cite are all part of the same problem--greed. Business interests seek illegal aliens to keep wages down and their profits up. Those profits are a big part of what corporate executives bonuses are based on. Illegal aliens are therefore a critical part of the problem. In fact, the wealthiest Americans (those with incomes over about $ half million a year, or roughly 1 percent of the population) have seen their share of US wealth go up several hundred percent while the rest of us tred water.

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          • #6
            Matrix maker, you and the rest of the illegal s-c-u-m-b-a-g-s on here have tried to use the same b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t reason why illegals come here. You are all criminals and should be treated as such. Aliba is speaking words of wisdom and something you people don't understand.........the TRUTH

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            • #7
              Paddy, tell us how you had your naturalization, and we'll tell you who you are.

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              • #8
                how ironic is to read Paddy's rant about her miserable life. You just solidfy my point about the low-income white trash that competes with Illegal Alliens. I just fired a POS like you the other day --- good luck in your life.

                Back to an intellegent argument. You guys must first take a Supply/Demand class before you give your ignorant opions. As long as there's a motive to hire low wage employees, illegal aliens will meet this demand. IF YOU BUILD IT,THEY WILL COME. ( psychology 101).

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                • #9
                  I have an M.B.A. and Ph.D. in business, including economics (not "supply/demand class", Matrix), which are probably 2 more degrees than you have.

                  Business always wants low wage labor to increase its profits BUT society does not have to let it have it. In fact, slavery was the ultimate in low wage labor, and we abolished that. We also have immigration laws intended to control the supply of labor so that wages go up or are at least not undercut. Businesses which violate the law are engaging in anticompetitive practices, and are at risk of being fined under RICO. Some already have been.

                  In other words, what business wants is secondary to what society in general wants, at least in the U.S., or is supposed to be in this country. This is a big part of what has voters upset, and is a big part of why Congress, which has been pandering to business interests, now finds itself between the rock and the hard place on immigration. Voters know that THEY'RE the ones subsidizing businesses which hire cheap labor. As noted economist Milton Friedman pointed out, one cannot have both a welfare state and open immigration.

                  Let's take your reasoning to the ultimate, Matrix--business gets all the labor it wants and drives wages for everyone into the toilet. Who will there be to buy their products? Where will there be mass markets for computers? Ipods? Cars? Overseas maybe, but not in the U.S. In fact, the U.S. would resemble most developing countries. Or, Mexico, with its small elite and widespread poverty. We're already headed that way. The share of wealth in the U.S. owned by the wealthiest 1 percent just went up to over 30 percent. America's consumer society was created because wise businessmen like Henry Ford realized that their employees were also consumers, and that if you wanted to sell more cars (or any other product), people had to have the means to buy them. That's the definition of a market, Matrix--people with money and the will to buy. People alone don't do it (consider India), and neither does money (how long would most businesses stay afloat if they relied on purchases by a handful of millionaires?).

                  An unlimited supply of labor, such as you have with open borders or illegal immigration or guest worker programs, means that labor has no bargaining power. No ability to negotiate for higher wages or better conditions. If you try to, your employer can easily replace you. Cesar Chavez gained improvements in the lot of farm workers BECAUSE he opposed illegal immigration and worked to prevent it. Those gains were lost when illegal immigration and anti-union efforts increased the available supply of labor.

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                  • #10
                    Great words Aliba. As for you Matrix scum......I have 2 bachelors degrees, one in economics and the other in Computer science so I think I am more than capable of beating you into submission with the truth

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                    • #11
                      Paddy and Aliba I agree with you. I have a BBA in IS which is absolutly useless in the USA due to offshoring of jobs due to the greediness of CEOs in this country.

                      My thoughs on this matter.

                      We need to get the lazy people that are on Welfare, etc....that CAN work do the jobs that most Americans don't want instead of giving these jobs to the illegals. Instead they are getting a free ride.

                      I think that due to offshoring of IT, manufacturing, etc.. we are creating our own problems and there is shifting of jobs with more qualified people doing jobs that they are overqualified for which pushes people that would normally do those jobs to even more meanial jobs. This just pushes peoples moral down even further and probably adds to the problem of people wanting to stay or be on welfare, etc.

                      I can understand if we have a guest worker program if we eliminated free rides to welfare, etc..people that can work and brought jobs back to America. We need to take care of our people in this country first. If there are any jobs left over then guest workers are a possibility.

                      Another concern of mine is this, the majority of the people that do come to this country do want to work and they do work hard but the problems I see are with their children and future generations. I come from San Antonio, TX where the number of illegals is incredibly high. The problem is CRIME, the majority of the illegal parents bust their butts working and don't have to the time to raise their kids instead it is society and the media. The crime level in big cities like San Antonio is mainly comprised of the kids of illegals.

                      Not too mention if the illegals due gain citizenship where is it going to end? They are going to rally that they are discriminated against and colleges are going to give more money to them over native born americans, job promotions are going to be based more on race than on qualifications,etc., the list goes on and on. I think that it will never end.

                      These are my thoughts, it is late and I'm going to bed.

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                      • #12
                        Illegal immigration is economic and social terrorism, and should be dealt with accordingly. I have no problem with immigrants coming to this country legally. But when or government is talking about giving 11 million illegals amnesty, it makes me want to give up the 18+ years I have been serving and defending this country. It basically says Mexico and Vicente Fox are running our immigration programs. It's also sad when my fiancee applied for a visitor visa to come here for 2 weeks was denied because she was filipina. The U.S. Embassay in Tokyo basically told her she was going to abandon her daughter in Japan, and go live with her mother and sister who are U.S. citizens, and went by the law to come to the states. It seems funny to me that they required not only the application, but employment records, bank statements, and proof of residence plus $100.00 (non-refundable) to apply for a visa and all they do is look at her passport and application. Seems to me like our embassay is just in it for the money to provide more benefits to illegal mexicans.

                        If the illegals want a green card, they need to go back to where they came from and apply just like everyone else, period.

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                        • #13
                          Now, I can't justify people who cross the borders by running away from the dogs we use as border security, hell the dogs probably get paid better than you or I. This, I agree is not the right way to go about it, but there are more than 5 million illegals that have at some point been legal as far as the SYSTEM is concerned. Yes, they may have "overstayed" their welcome, but the fact of the matter is: don't you think it will cost the government even more of "our" hard earned tax dollars to try and string a lasso around 11-12 million illegals and get them hog tied and deported.

                          You all know they are not going to go on their own, and I believe they shouldn't have too. Now I may not have an MBA or a BBA in anything, but I am intelligent enough to see the direction that the American economy is going. It cannot be blamed on illegal immigrants alone. The American people are only going to exist in two income classes in around five years: Extremely poor and extremely rich, there will be nothing in between. Not because of immigrants. More because of selfishness, than anything.

                          The companies that have promoted the work of illegals are more to blame than the actual people involved. They are here to earn a living and make their quality of life better.

                          America's economy was heading towards the toilet long before there were two million immigrants a year flowing through our borders and ports.

                          Society has made its impact, but no matter how society adjusts itself to the increases in costs, the costs continue to rise more and more everyday. This in turn forces society to be ever adjusting, once again not because of the existance of illegal immigrants. The lower wage jobs and the proper mindset of the consumer is what drives the cost, but not enough people see that and the companies do all the price gouging they can. They get away with it because the consumer doesn't exercise their right to choose.

                          Instead we treat it as one big monopoly instead of all separate entities.

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                          • #14
                            Aliba,
                            I suspect you are a Keynesian. Your "economic" theory just does not hold water when I look at consumer preferences about products, labor, and fair working conditions. Actually, I see abnormalities when I compare all three together. Most consumers want cheap labor, but have varying opinions on what is cheap and what is not. Shall we dispense of the bull when we look how labor unions have ruined this country with exhobarant labor costs and unfair working conditions for the employers. Furthermore, slavery is not cheap labor. Quite contrary, it was very expensive to operate and maintain. The employer contributed all the costs of feeding, transporting, providing, and managing the labor supply, especially after the revolutionary war. You can look at another statistic in the US which prior to the Civil War, only 1 out of 6 owned at least one slave and only 10% of that same group owned more than 5 slaves. IF slavery was so cheap, then why only a small percentage owned a slave. This is where your theory about slavery does not make sense and I smell Paul Krugman in that argument. Finally, matrix does have a point. The number one problem facing employers is a lack of committment by the employees. This includes showing up to work on time, not complaining about everything and anything, and not having to deal with their employees problems that affect their work habits. Even in good companies, extraordinary production slippage occurs because of bad work ethics and employees taking unfair advantage of the employer.
                            "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre

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                            • #15
                              Great words Aliba. As for you Matrix scum......I have 2 bachelors degrees, one in economics and the other in Computer science so I think I am more than capable of beating you into submission with the truth
                              Paddy, computer programmers are overpaid as it is and technology is eliminating most of the work that was done in the 90's. I have a finance and economics degree, but I am an enrolleg agent (I deal with taxes). Most jobs are eliminated by technology, not outsourcing. This has been confirmed by Alliance National, a leading expert on the subject. Other indicators is that the US economy is running on an efficient basis with productivity as high as it was in the 90's. This is how the economy should run and not have any excess baggage to bring it down. Service and finance industry jobs are now driving the economy and that is where the skills are needed.
                              "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre

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