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US IMMIGRATION POLICY. Restriction or Open Borders?

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  • US IMMIGRATION POLICY. Restriction or Open Borders?

    It is very interesting to hear many "disputes" on the pages of this forum on the issues of US Immigration Policy.

    I am not a rasist, he is a rasist, I am good he is bad, I obey laws but he is an illegal and thus criminal...Reward me and punish him...and etc...etc...

    This kind of "argument" is more appropriate in kindergarten than in the discussion of National Security and Immigration policies (and I am not saying that I myself was flawless at ALL times).

    Recently an associate of Kirkorian was making an argument in favor of temporary moratorium on immigration(he appeared on C-SPAN) and I was listening to what he was saying very carefully.
    He had some good points that I would find hard to disagree with, no matter I am in favor or against Immigration.
    But one of the things he said was exactly what we hear so often: "This is NOT a Nation of Immigrants, because there have always been MORE native born than first generation Immigrants here", and I thought "wow, this guy just couldn't keep it cool.What a useless argument!"

    You could see that he was visibly shaking when he came to that issue.
    And that is a symptom of passion overwhelming the reason.

    Issues we have currently are these:

    1. Illegals are attracted and employed by US economy.
    2. Number of Illegals currently residing in US is near 10 mln(not exact number).
    3. Illegals keep crossing US borders in alarming numbers
    4. There are National Security threats posed by both new-arrivers and those who present here currently.
    5. There are economic, social and demographic implications of mass immigration.
    6. How to balance the respect for the Law and Civil Liberties and how to make Immigration Laws reasonable, reflecting the realities of today and preventing disasters of the future?

    So, naturally everyone wonders What should be done about all these issues?

    a) Should the borders be shot, militarized and entire illegal population be forced to leave or vigorously sought after if disobeys order to do so,regardless of any individual or any other circumstances (The option most vocally advocated by HR Tancredo)?

    b) Should borders be open and those who present given some legal status with option for those who have permanent ties(family,children,long presence) to assimilate and stay here permanently ?

    c)Should the borders be shot so there would be no longer a competition from foreign labor force and those who present here be legalised depending on individual circumstances and ties to community?

    d) Should borders be open for as long as economy needs it and the whole stream of immigrats legalised in the form of Temp. H2A workers program with all those illegaly present here forced to leave the country to apply for it from abroad? (Tom De Lay said he would only support such version of Guest Worker Program).

    e) Should all these issues be inconsistently and hesitantly addressed by our lawmakers and government and should they just keep debating without ever enacting or doing anything,while great mass of immigrants run deeper and deeper into shadows while some portion of local population gets more and more recentful of all immigrants? (Slurs and "attitudes" are already common,visible and audible everywhere, including this Forum. And if problem is not adderessed directly then it will not stop there with "verbal assaults", "jokes" and "pranks" but it will get to the point when we will have groups of youth rampaging and beating up foreigners in the street with Law Enforcement helplessly watching from aside, just as it happened/happens in some parts of Western and Eastern Europe).

    It is my strong belief that that the option e) is the worst of all.

    It would be much better for Americans and Illegal Immigrants if the US firmly shot the borders and consistently and vigorously sought after and removed ALL who remained here illegally past certain, government announced deadline than to let the option e) to unfold.

    I personally am not an advocate of mass deportation and total restriction on Immigration but given the option e) it seems as a much better choice.

    In all fairness there should be an open debate, all numbers,proposals carefully analysed and judged before the Congressional Panels and made public and the desision should soon be made taking into account the BEST LONG AND SHORT TERM INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES CITIZENS.

    And by all means everything must be done so that it doesn't turn into a new Holocaust,but resolved in civilised,humane,reasonable and consistent way.


    Best regards,
    E.

    NOTE: ABOVE POSTING WAS COPIED AND EDITED FROM MY RESPONCE TO SERGIO.
    THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE ALREADY READ IT,PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES FOR POSTING IT TWICE.
    I THOUGHT THAT SINCE THIS LETTER OFFERS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT,MORE SOBER AND FOCUSED ANGLE OF VIEW INTO WHAT WAS RAISED BEFORE UNDER "PROCLAMATION TO ALL" IT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED UNDER DIFFERENT SUBJECT LINE.

  • #2
    It is very interesting to hear many "disputes" on the pages of this forum on the issues of US Immigration Policy.

    I am not a rasist, he is a rasist, I am good he is bad, I obey laws but he is an illegal and thus criminal...Reward me and punish him...and etc...etc...

    This kind of "argument" is more appropriate in kindergarten than in the discussion of National Security and Immigration policies (and I am not saying that I myself was flawless at ALL times).

    Recently an associate of Kirkorian was making an argument in favor of temporary moratorium on immigration(he appeared on C-SPAN) and I was listening to what he was saying very carefully.
    He had some good points that I would find hard to disagree with, no matter I am in favor or against Immigration.
    But one of the things he said was exactly what we hear so often: "This is NOT a Nation of Immigrants, because there have always been MORE native born than first generation Immigrants here", and I thought "wow, this guy just couldn't keep it cool.What a useless argument!"

    You could see that he was visibly shaking when he came to that issue.
    And that is a symptom of passion overwhelming the reason.

    Issues we have currently are these:

    1. Illegals are attracted and employed by US economy.
    2. Number of Illegals currently residing in US is near 10 mln(not exact number).
    3. Illegals keep crossing US borders in alarming numbers
    4. There are National Security threats posed by both new-arrivers and those who present here currently.
    5. There are economic, social and demographic implications of mass immigration.
    6. How to balance the respect for the Law and Civil Liberties and how to make Immigration Laws reasonable, reflecting the realities of today and preventing disasters of the future?

    So, naturally everyone wonders What should be done about all these issues?

    a) Should the borders be shot, militarized and entire illegal population be forced to leave or vigorously sought after if disobeys order to do so,regardless of any individual or any other circumstances (The option most vocally advocated by HR Tancredo)?

    b) Should borders be open and those who present given some legal status with option for those who have permanent ties(family,children,long presence) to assimilate and stay here permanently ?

    c)Should the borders be shot so there would be no longer a competition from foreign labor force and those who present here be legalised depending on individual circumstances and ties to community?

    d) Should borders be open for as long as economy needs it and the whole stream of immigrats legalised in the form of Temp. H2A workers program with all those illegaly present here forced to leave the country to apply for it from abroad? (Tom De Lay said he would only support such version of Guest Worker Program).

    e) Should all these issues be inconsistently and hesitantly addressed by our lawmakers and government and should they just keep debating without ever enacting or doing anything,while great mass of immigrants run deeper and deeper into shadows while some portion of local population gets more and more recentful of all immigrants? (Slurs and "attitudes" are already common,visible and audible everywhere, including this Forum. And if problem is not adderessed directly then it will not stop there with "verbal assaults", "jokes" and "pranks" but it will get to the point when we will have groups of youth rampaging and beating up foreigners in the street with Law Enforcement helplessly watching from aside, just as it happened/happens in some parts of Western and Eastern Europe).

    It is my strong belief that that the option e) is the worst of all.

    It would be much better for Americans and Illegal Immigrants if the US firmly shot the borders and consistently and vigorously sought after and removed ALL who remained here illegally past certain, government announced deadline than to let the option e) to unfold.

    I personally am not an advocate of mass deportation and total restriction on Immigration but given the option e) it seems as a much better choice.

    In all fairness there should be an open debate, all numbers,proposals carefully analysed and judged before the Congressional Panels and made public and the desision should soon be made taking into account the BEST LONG AND SHORT TERM INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES CITIZENS.

    And by all means everything must be done so that it doesn't turn into a new Holocaust,but resolved in civilised,humane,reasonable and consistent way.


    Best regards,
    E.

    NOTE: ABOVE POSTING WAS COPIED AND EDITED FROM MY RESPONCE TO SERGIO.
    THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE ALREADY READ IT,PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES FOR POSTING IT TWICE.
    I THOUGHT THAT SINCE THIS LETTER OFFERS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT,MORE SOBER AND FOCUSED ANGLE OF VIEW INTO WHAT WAS RAISED BEFORE UNDER "PROCLAMATION TO ALL" IT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED UNDER DIFFERENT SUBJECT LINE.

    Comment


    • #3
      1.) Limited open borders mainly for employment based immigrants where the shortage employees exist in US economies like: constructions, farm workers, nurses, IT.

      2.) Ability to adjust an illegal status for all immigrants who came here 5 years or earlier.

      3.) Restriction for LPR is receiving a federal aid and benefits that are not available for US citizens – LPR should prove that he can support himself without a federal aid.
      Many LPR senior citizens abuse the system by selling food stamps in supermarkets or living in luxury public housing.

      4.) Family immigration only for immediate relatives (spouse, parent, child) not for far relatives like in Canada.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'll vote for open borders if and when other countries take on the responsibility of paying for the education and health care of their citizens in this country. Until then, no way.

        As Milton Friedman said, it is not possible to have both open borders and a welfare state.

        Comment


        • #5
          what'st he purpose of asking. we'll get 250 million differnet opinons. In the end -- there's no agreement.

          we already HAVE immigration laws. Let's ENFORCE what's there.

          It's LACK OF enforcement that's the problem. We don't need new laws.

          -= nav =-

          Comment


          • #6
            Aliba,
            the issue of "welfare state" was very unsettling(and was widely spread not just among New Immigramts but also among some 10th generation americans) before 1996.
            Many people are unaware that the strict laws have been passed in 1996 that made it impossible for not just Illegal Immigrants but also for LPR to get a cash welfare or Public Assistance in the US.

            Now, it is true that some people use false identity and claim that they are entitled to some of those benefits.
            But,do you advocate to stop issuing driving licenses or stop anyone from seeking a driver license or buying a car because there are people who use false identity documents and abuse the system to get DL's?
            Wouldn't it make more sence to intercept and arrest those who use false ID's to drive than to blame existence of cars for it?

            Welfare and Immigration are not the same and one issue, although some people constantly mix these issues to create an impression that it is.

            Now, education and health care are not free,I agree.
            Public education is financed by taxpayers (and any immigrant, if legally here,will have to pay taxes or potentially go to jail for avoiding them, just like anyone else).

            Health Care is not free anyway.
            If you have NO insurance doctors don't treat you unless you prepay for service.
            But there is a law that says you can't be denied EMERGENCY care just because you can't afford it,no matter who you are,foreigner or American.
            Emergency Care Eligibility is not an Immigration issue but one that separates the Human Society from the Jungle.
            To deny someone EMERGENCY care and let person die just because he can't afford to pay for it is something very widely spread in Third World Countries.
            Do you want US to become one?

            Now, if you want to prevent ABUSES then you should require that anyone born out of US get an affordable health insurance, and if any immigrant present here is without valid health insurance (or can't afford to buy one) then he/she is a subject to speedy removal under some amended Section of INA (by the way they have this strict requirement on Health Ins. for foreign students in Canada).

            This issue of "public burden" seems to be a separate issue that should be dealt accordingly.
            If there are those Immigrants who are "burden" to taxpayers then they should be dealt with directly,and there is no need to mix the entire Immigrant population with it.

            You don't imprison or execute entire population of Bronx or Harlem to combat the crime and murder.
            Why should you blame entire Immigrant population for what is done by some?

            Now, this being said it doesn't mean that you have to go to extremes and advocate the total liberalization of Immigration and bring 1 billion foreigners to US tomorrow if they agree to pay for healthcare and taxes.

            There are very important implications of mass immigration, and they should be addressed.
            Demographic explosion of foreign born population beyond controls could be disastrous for the country, and ever increasing numbers of foreigners without absorbing/assimilation by mainstream americans create the atmosphere of intolerance and recentment that in the long run could erupt in violent and uncontrollable ways.
            These are valid and real issues that can not be ignored or separated in the process of considering and implementing the US Immigration Policy.

            But to mix issues that do not connect directly to Immigration (such as any particular crime/abuse/burden that could be commited by anyone else) is an attempt to persuade and manufacture public opinion by unscientific methods and should not be welcomed in these matters.

            And if these methods are used anyway I don't think they will work in the long run.

            Good luck.

            [This message was edited by E. on February 19, 2004 at 12:15 PM.]

            Comment


            • #7
              I look at it this way.

              A group of kids sneak in a movie theater and are watching movie say. (committed an illegal act). They proceed watching the movie and there's about 30 minutes left. All of the sudden, an usher notices the illegal kids and wants to throw them out of the movie(deport them)....even though there is 30 minutes left and they have seen most of the movie.

              The problem here clearly is the lack of security entering the theater. Might as well let the kids watch the movie at this point, right?

              The problem is the BORDER period(.)
              We need to provide a path to legalization for all the 9.5 million or so undocumented immigrants who primarily work jobs an average American worker will not fill. Of course, they need to be a person of good morale character and not be a criminal, etc..

              Most illegals have become part of our society and now are living the underground world, having USC babies and establishing and contributing to the US economy. We can't arbitrarily say 'everyone must go'.

              I say we seal off the border with our military and advance technology in order to circumvent this complicated issue.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree 100%:
                "I look at it this way.

                A group of kids sneak in a movie theater and are watching movie say. (committed an illegal act). They proceed watching the movie and there's about 30 minutes left. All of the sudden, an usher notices the illegal kids and wants to throw them out of the movie(deport them)....even though there is 30 minutes left and they have seen most of the movie.

                The problem here clearly is the lack of security entering the theater. Might as well let the kids watch the movie at this point, right?

                The problem is the BORDER period(.)
                We need to provide a path to legalization for all the 9.5 million or so undocumented immigrants who primarily work jobs an average American worker will not fill. Of course, they need to be a person of good morale character and not be a criminal, etc..

                Most illegals have become part of our society and now are living the underground world, having USC babies and establishing and contributing to the US economy. We can't arbitrarily say 'everyone must go'.

                I say we seal off the border with our military and advance technology in order to circumvent this complicated issue."

                At least one smart American - the rest on this forum are idiots.

                Comment


                • #9
                  >The problem is the BORDER period(.)

                  BINGO.

                  -= nav =-

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Good luck to you guys finding a solution ...

                    Whenever someone talks about illegal ... no matter where they start from , how they go around the topic .... Things stop at one point finally .... Like it did in another E's post " Proclamation ......" and couple of others from Acelaw in past ....

                    So what's the use unless real actions are taken ... ? Have a great evening to everyone ... Pasha

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Maria :-)

                      NP, I agree with what you said to a degree... The main problem is that the US has been so open with the borders and also been so lax with enforcement of so many immigration laws that to all of a sudden expect everyone to jump through the proper hoops or go home is a little unrealistic ( and many times "illegals" have lived here for years and this IS home). We are all trained to an extent by whatever authority we answer to. Animals, people (children are a good example), we're all trained to a certain standard of behavior. Most will push the limits if those limits are not enforced. We all "learn" that the rule says one thing but reality is a different thing. That doesn't make it "right" to break the rule. As human beings, hopefully with ethics and good character, we should have some responsibility to the rule even if it's not being enforced. One example could be speeding. For two years you've gone 10 miles over the speed limit, every day, going to work. On this one particular day however, you are ticketed. What a shock! You have to pay the fine and then you learn that maybe speeding isn't such a good idea. But you're not sent to prison for the rest of your life for it. You pay the fine, you learn, you go on. If you continue speeding and getting tickets then the "punishment" increases. I think it should be the same for people who have broken immigration laws (according to the severity and type). Pay a fine, get some sort of legal status, a probationary type of status perhaps. The US tighten the borders and consistently enforce the laws and everything should fall into place. I think that Maria's comments about limiting the family based immigration petitions to immediate family and allowing employment visas for those types of employment in which the US has chronic openings ( over a period of years) are good ideas also. Maybe we should all be writing our gov. representatives and telling THEM what our ideas and opinions are?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        N.P., I agree. If we would enforce the first and most important part of immigration, which is the BORDER, than it wouldn't be as costly to enforce the rest of the immigration laws. If we hadn't been ignoring the border for sooooo many years, than our "alien" problem would not be nearly as huge as it is now. To expect aliens not to cross the border just because there is a sign saying "It is illegal to enter without a visa" is nothing less than frivolous stupidity. Like "Still Learning" points out, people will do what they can get away with. I am aware that the majority of Americans would like very much to see the majority of thier Mexican neighbors leave the country. The majority of Americans would like to win the lottery, too. There are all kinds of unrealisitc and irrational "dreams" shared by a lot of people living in this country. Dreams are what they are, not reality.. Things are never going to return to the imaginary "good old days" of an all-white, all protestant, all monolingual, freckle-faced, blue-eyed society. It is time to open our eyes and see our country for what it is. If we made "mistakes" than so be it, there's no reason to cry over spilled milk. We aren't going to change things, so we might as well do the best with waht we have. We might be pleasantly surprised at what we find. There are plenty of immigrants, even illegal immigrants, who are more patriotic than Americans I know who have been here for countless generations.

                        [This message was edited by Glühbirne on February 19, 2004 at 08:09 PM.]
                        Have a nice day

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Glühbirne, you are exactly right. I know several immigrants, some of which are illegal, who are more devoted to this county and to doing things to better this country than most people that I know that are citizens. They consider themselves to be Americans in their hearts and they take it very seriously. They try to live good lives and also give back to the community every chance they get. A lot of people that I know who have always lived in the US and are citizens, take everything that we have, the freedoms, etc. for granted, as if it is OWED to us.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            HOORAY for E, Still Learning, and Gluhbirne, they make some sense and reasonable solution to this very controversial problem. THANKYOU!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Everyone has some very good relevant points and at the very least it's a good start in determining a solution.

                              Hey pasha, why so negative by saying :"So what's the use unless real actions are taken ... ?"

                              It's disturbing, especially since you are obviously from an Indian (hindu) background and should be encouraging dialect, rather than saying "what's the point"

                              Comment

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