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Immigration is vital to any economy.

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  • Immigration is vital to any economy.

    I just wanted to make a quick point to those who oppose immigration.

    Economic activity is created by consumption of services and materials. Economic Growth is only achieved by ever-increasing demand for these items. For a country or society to experience sustainable economic growth, they MUST have an increase in population. Unless your own birth rate is higher than the mortality rate, you must achieve this through immigration.

    So the argument is not "They are taking jobs away" - The argument is "They are creating jobs". These are the fundamental facts of macro-economics that cannot be denied.

    So, immigration is a good thing; it just needs to be able to filter out problem candidates that are in every crowd.

    Just my two cents worth for today...


  • #2
    I just wanted to make a quick point to those who oppose immigration.

    Economic activity is created by consumption of services and materials. Economic Growth is only achieved by ever-increasing demand for these items. For a country or society to experience sustainable economic growth, they MUST have an increase in population. Unless your own birth rate is higher than the mortality rate, you must achieve this through immigration.

    So the argument is not "They are taking jobs away" - The argument is "They are creating jobs". These are the fundamental facts of macro-economics that cannot be denied.

    So, immigration is a good thing; it just needs to be able to filter out problem candidates that are in every crowd.

    Just my two cents worth for today...



    • #3
      wonderful post. I couldn't have said it better. how are the american citizens on welfare viewed by the american public? especially those who like being on welfare, without even bothering to find a job?


      • #4
        According to the US Census Bureau, the US averages 4 million births each year and 2.4 million deaths. This leaves 1.6 million extra people in the US each year. However, population grew by an average of 3.3 million. That means that 1.7 million immigrants arrive in the US each year. Looking at the State Department's publications, fewer than 1,000 fifth preference (employment creation) visas are issued each year. So, 1,699,000 immigrants do not create new jobs each year.

        Immigration (and emigration) can have positive and negative aspects. Overall, I agree with your conclusion that it is a good thing. I don't agree with how you arrived at that conclusion.

        Benjamin Franklin wrote about this same subject back in the 18th century.

        The Grand Poo-Bah
        Lord Chief Justice, Master of the Buckhounds and Groom of the Back Stairs


        • #5

          Always be wary of people with egos who spew statistics...

          Now to address your facts... Which, I actaully almost agree with.

          - The US Population is around 282 Million
          - There are Aprox 28 Million Immigrants currently in the US (Legal) and up to 14 Million Illegals...
          There were ~ 4 Million Births in 2001
          There were ~ 2.4 Million Deaths in 2001
          The Population grew by 3.2 Million meaning a 1.6 Million increase by Immigration...

          So far we agree...


          - The population bubble is rapidly passing child rearing age so those stats will continue to shift.
          - 42% of all births in the U.S. are to First generation immigrants...
          - Just because a person does not get a job (or a visa) does not mean they do not 'Create' jobs... Even illegal immigration creates jobs...

          Every person consumes - the more they consume the more the economy grows. Likewise, the more people that are consuming the more the economy grows...

          Your conclusion that 1,699,000 immigrants do not create jobs is flawed and ridiculous. What kind of jobs do those 1.7 million people create?


          • #6
            Teachers for their kids...
            Doctors for thier health...
            Grocery Clerks to stock the shelves when they buy something...
            Small business owners...
            Real Estate...
            Basically - everything!

            So... Beware of 'Poo' with his stats... Anyone can draw any conclusion from any statistics...



            • #7
              If you filed previously for any green card under 245-i you are 245-i grandfathered and you can get a green card without leaving US. But if you have not filed for a GC under 245-i before March 2001 that a 10 years ban applies to you.


              • #8
                Americas economy was never, ever, based on a totally free market in labor. It was based on a labor market constricted by limited immigration and a small population relative to national resources, and a free market in everything else. This was designed to produce high wages. We have always been an explicitly high-wage nation relative to other societies, and this did not happen by accident. (This is the key story in Pat Buchanans book The Great Betrayal, and he is right about this, even if he is wrong about other things.) Labor is the one and only area in which no rational society should want to construct a free market, because free markets make things cheap, and high wages equal a high standard of living. But the principle is rock-solid. Labor is fundamentally different from all other commodities because its well-being is an end in itself, not a means to other ends. I am advocating controls on the influx of foreign labor, not unions or limits on which jobs Americans can hold. Lie #1: "Immigrants helped sustain our economic boom and are essential to our current and future economic vitality."
                Rebuttal #1: Let's go through some basic economics: immigrants increase aggregate or total GNP because whenever you add a new person to the economy and this person produces goods and services, this constitutes economic activity. But it isn't aggregate GNP that makes ours a prosperous country it's per capita GNP, and these immigrants, who are mostly poor , dilute this statistic. If this were not so, we could increase our GNP by having the entire population of India and China move here. Would this be a good idea? Is India a richer country than Switzerland because it has a larger aggregate GNP, though a smaller per capita one? .

                According to the Census Bureau figures, more than two-thirds of current and future population growth is the result of immigration. Dr. Steven Camarota, Director of Reseach for the Center for Immigration Studies, wrote in a January 2001 paper: "Immigration has become the determinate factor in population growth. The 11.2 million immigrants who indicated they arrived between 1990 and 2000 plus the 6.4 million children born to immigrants in the United States during the 1990s are equal to almost 70 percent of U.S. population growth over the last 10 years."

                Reducing immigration therefore is necessary to curb population growth. How many more restaurants, malls , houses , burger joints do we need if we go back to 1965 immigration levels which were targeted for replacement level. The new lenience helps explain why overall wage increases have been less than many economists and policy makers had expected, given an unemployment rate of only 4 percent and a strong demand for people to fill jobs that pay $8 an hour or less, which is 25 percent of all jobs. The Washington Post reported (12/1/02) that half of new workers in the decade of the 1990s were immigrants. This figure is stunning when considered with the new immigrants share of labor force growth in previous decades, i.e., 27 percent in the 1980s and 10 percent in the 1970s. American workers are not unaware of the problem: a pre-911 Zogby poll found that 60 percent of Democratic union households believed that amnesty for illegal aliens was a bad idea. A company is only as good as its weakest employee, throwing cheap labor around will stifle implementing technology, bad in the long run for this country. Companies that need high skilled will leave such as they are doing in Calif, if they don't they will have to shoulder more of the tax burden, not , they pack for greener pastures., Calif. Will implode on itself for this very reason.
                San Francisco Chronicle
                High taxes and lots of rules prompt some firms to leave Calif.
                California is known for exporting computers and chemicals, wine and apparel -- and, of course, cheese. But now the state is gaining the unfortunate reputation for exporting something far more valuable: Jobs. Corporate leaders and some economists fear that California's health is in jeopardy...

                Job seekers face limited opportunities for adequate wages
                Contact: Jean Ross, 916/444-0500
                FOR RELEASE:
                April 19, 2000
                SACRAMENTO - The California economy is booming and unemployment rates are at their lowest point in decades. (haha) SEE HOW THIS HAS CHANGED SO QUICK However, according to a new study from the California Budget Project, many of state's new jobs require relatively low levels of education and training and pay low wages, leaving California's job seekers with limited opportunities to earn enough to support a family.
                The new report - Will Work Pay? Job Creation in the New California Economy - notes that among the state's 10 fastest growing jobs in absolute numbers, seven of them pay, on average, less than $11 per hour - or less than $23,000 a year for full-time work. In addition, only one out of 10 of the state's fastest growing jobs that would pay enough to support a two-working-parent family is an entry-level type job
                click on source for full read

                Associated Press--Dallas Morning News, February 11, 2003
                8."Business people in Illinois who will be honest with you will tell you that these [illegal] Mexicans are indispensable," Illinois' senior senator, **** Durbin, said during a visit to Mexico last month. "A major restaurateur in Chicago said to me that 'If you take the Mexicans out of the restaurants, we will close, and the same is true of the hotel industry.'"

                Amazing we were able to make it 200 years with out mass illegal immigration.

                African-Americans being hurt most by joblessness
                The employment picture is bleak. Nationwide, nearly 2.6 million manufacturing jobs have been lost since July 2000. -- And that statistic has hit black Americans hard. --- "Blacks basically command more labor market power, whereas Latinos cannot because of their immigration status," says Dr. Raul Hinojosa, a professor at UCLA. "Therefore, the wage pressure is kept down on Latinos making them more exploitable, and, therefore, more employable. There is really no subtle way to explain the point."

                Employment (thousands of jobs)
                Occupations 2000 2010 Growth
                Food preparation and serving 2,206 2,879 673
                Retail salespersons 4,109 4,619 510
                Cashiers (except gaming) 3,325 3,799 474
                Office clerks (general) 2,705 3,135 430
                Security guards 1,106 1,497 391
                Waiters and waitresses 1,983 2,347 364
                Nursing aides, orderlies, attendants 1,373 1,697 323
                Janitors and cleaners (nonhousehold) 2,348 2,665 317
                Home health aides 615 907 291
                Manual laborers and movers 2,084 2,373 289
                Landscaping and groundskeeping 894 1,154 260
                Personal and home care aides 414 672 258
                Truck drivers and delivery services 1,117 1,331 215
                Manual packers and packagers 1,091 1,300 210
                All jobs requiring short-term training 53,198 60,871 7,673
                Table 1
                America's Growing Demand for Low-Skilled Workers
                Source: U.S. Department of Labor, "Occupational Employment Projections to 2010," Monthly Labor Review,
                November 2001.


                • #9
                  acelaw nobody wants to read your junk


                  • #10
                    "BROWN COLLAR" JOBS

                    Hispanic immigrants piling into the labor market are weighing
                    down the wages of all workers in a broad range of blue-collar
                    occupations in big cities across the country, according to a new
                    study by Lisa Catanzarite, a sociologist at the University of
                    California - Los Angeles.

                    According to the study:

                    o Occupations in which new Hispanic immigrants account for a
                    quarter of the work-force pay as much as 11 percent less
                    than those where there are no new Latino immigrant men.

                    o Toward the lower end of the wage ladder, where average
                    annual earnings are about $21,600, jobs in which new
                    Hispanic immigrant men account for 10 percent of the labor
                    force pay $950 less per year than similar jobs with no new
                    Latino arrivals.

                    o Where new Latino male immigrants account for a quarter of
                    the labor pool, the wage penalty is almost $2,400.

                    These new immigrants have concentrated in what Catanzarite calls
                    "brown collar" jobs, ranging from construction to gardening to
                    washing dishes, in such metropolitan areas as Los Angeles, New
                    York and Chicago.

                    o The new immigrant males from Latin America -- defined as
                    those who have been in the United States for less than
                    five years -- aren't more than 5 percent of the total
                    labor force in any metropolitan area.

                    o But in some cities they represent as much as 29 percent in
                    a specific employment category, like janitors and roofers.

                    While the study shows the link between Latin immigrant labor and
                    the pressure on wages, Catanzarite notes that some industries in
                    which new Latino immigrants work -- such as textile production --
                    might not even exist in the United States if it weren't for cheap
                    immigrant labor.

                    Source: Eduardo Porter, "Hispanic Newcomers Damp Wages: Study
                    Calls for More Workplace Rules And Amnesty for Illegal
                    Immigrants," Wall Street Journal, August 19, 2003; Lisa
                    Catanzarite, ""Wage Penalties in Brown-Collar Occupations,"
                    August 18, 2003, University of California, Los Angeles.

                    For text

                    For study information

                    For more on the Effects of Immigration


                    • #11
                      93 degrees F

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                      Tucson, Arizona Friday, 22 August 2003

                      Arizona is lagging in educated workers
                      By Howard Fischer
                      CAPITOL MEDIA SERVICES

                      New figures from the U.S. Census Bureau could have implications for Arizona businesses looking for educated workers.

                      In 1990, 20.3 percent of all Arizonans age 25 or older had at least a bachelor's degree, equal to the national average. But a decade later, while the figure for Arizona had increased to 23.5 percent, it did not keep pace with the national average, which had gone up to 24.4 percent.

                      Similar declines occurred in other levels of educational attainment.

                      In 1990, for example, the state's percentage of people who graduated from high school was 3.5 points above the national average. Ten years later, that lead had slipped to 0.6 percent. Similarly, the 0.2 percent gap between Arizonans with advanced degrees and the national average in 1990 had increased to 0.5 percent by 2000.

                      Chris Herstam, president of the Arizona Board of Regents, said some of the decline in educational achievement may be due to Arizona's location along the nation's southern border. He said the steady flow of immigrants, most of whom are not well-educated, could skew the figures somewhat.

                      But Herstam said that whatever the cause, it still leaves the state with the problem of creating an educated work force.

                      Farrell Quinlan, communications director for the Arizona Chamber of Commerce, agreed. He said having enough people with high school, college and advanced degrees is a major worry for the business community.

                      "There is a concern K-12 may not be preparing students for higher education and technical degrees," he said.

                      Gov. Janet Napolitano said the statistics back her contention that education needs to be the top priority for the state - and for the available funds.

                      And State Schools Superintendent Tom Horne, while questioning whether the figures are statistically significant, said the numbers do point up a larger national problem. He said two-thirds of all jobs require advanced reading skills.

                      "If we don't do a better job of training our high-school graduates, by 2006 we'll have 20 million jobs that can't be filled by American workers," he said. And those jobs, he said, may end up going overseas.

                      Herstam said the census statistics mirror other studies he has seen.

                      "At the very time we are trying to produce more adults in this state with college degrees to compete in a knowledge-based economy, we see that, compared to other states, they are growing their college-educated population faster than ours," he said. "And that's alarming."

                      But the problem isn't confined to the question of getting Arizonans to attend college. Herstam said it is equally possible that the state's dropout rate - by some measures the highest in the nation - reduces the number of residents who are eligible for admission. Napolitano acknowledges the problem.

                      "The way to increase the number going to college is to increase high-school graduation," she said. And that, she added, is directly linked to making sure that children learn to read in the early grades.

                      Herstam said even if the cause of the state's lagging education is the high immigrant population, he said he believes the university system can do more to increase the percentage of college graduates and prepare them for the jobs of the future.

                      "We are urging all three of our public universities to aggressively recruit freshmen that may not be inclined to pursue a college education," he said.

                      The University of Arizona, for example, has pledged to be a Hispanic-serving institution in the next decade.

                      Support the Mount Lemmon reforestation and trail-rebuilding effort by buying Aspen Fire commemorative items at

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