there are 12M illegals in the US, violating our laws every day; there are only around 3M people in prisons (more than 25% of them are illegals!), ergo,, there are 4 X as many illegals committing crimes than Americans, and on a percentage basis, a full 100% of illegals are committing crimes each and every day their irresponsible a$$e$ are in America.

Where did you get those figures and statistics? From KKK? From the Minutemen?

The hypocricy of the apologosts for illegals always amazes me. Upon reading Macyuhoo's posts, there are lots of blatantly racist comments...only a couple of comments back on this very thread, for example.

Yet, because Macyuhoo, like the other apologists, is unable to reasonably argue their indefensible position, they instinctively play the race card and accuse their opponents of being racists.

Someone12's statistics on incarceration are widely known to be accurate...yet, Macyuhoo asserts that they must have come from either the KKK or the Minutemen. PATHETIC.

Don't worry ,your to time will come and every thing will be okay.

I don't think the figures are the "made up" kind, they're exactly what one could expect given current law.

The larger percentage of people arrested is made out of first offenders, that's a fact. I'll restrict my comments to this larger group.

When a first offender citizen commits a crime, the person is usually given a citation and released or is able to bail out, and upon sentencing, very often released to perform community service (on petty offenses) or incarcerated to serve very short terms. This helps alleviate prison overcrowding specially in those counties that actually keep statistics.
When a first offender illegal is arrested he's automatically removable because of the illegal status. This triggers a hold on the prisoner, he or she MUST be taken into custody and may not be released until, usually, he or she is sentenced and completes his sentence (if any). Then, the prisoner is often allowed to wait in prison for a removal hearing if there's no room at the ICE facility (and that's usually the case).

Also, any illegal re-entry triggers a sentence enhancement meaning much longer times of incarceration. A very large group of EWI aliens are also involved in illegal-re-entry.

Illegals are also less likely to bail out because of economic reasons, they're constantly rejected by bondsmen and lack enough knowledge of the law and confidence in the system to actually contact a lawyer.

And you wonder why the inmate count is higher for illegal aliens than citizens. The citizen inmate population comes and goes while the alien population grows, it would be strange to find citizen inmates outnumbering alien inmates, but in some counties that's pretty much the case.

These statistics may be true, and I say "may" with a strong emphasis, but they certainly are a poor indicative of actual crime rate.

One argued that more the early Americans were more than 90% white. Such statement was to prove that other ethnic groups came later. Isn't it the earliest people in America were the Native Indians? No one, not even me, can claim to own this country except these natives whose lands were grabbed.

quote:

Originally posted by SunDevilUSA:
The hypocricy of the apologosts for illegals always amazes me. Upon reading Macyuhoo's posts, there are lots of blatantly racist comments...only a couple of comments back on this very thread, for example.

Yet, because Macyuhoo, like the other apologists, is unable to reasonably argue their indefensible position, they instinctively play the race card and accuse their opponents of being racists.

Someone12's statistics on incarceration are widely known to be accurate...yet, Macyuhoo asserts that they must have come from either the KKK or the Minutemen. PATHETIC.

Then have Someone12 post a link. The controversy is that illegal immigrants, no matter how defined, is always a criminal offense. This is not the case with immigration law. The first offense is simply a civil matter without criminal intent while illegals who have re-entered are subject to "aggravated felony" under 1101(a)(43). And like tax law, immigration law violations is mainly a civil statue even with intent on most cases. It is not until immigration fraud through the various statues that criminalality of immigrants can occur. Moreover. the statistic that is not accurate is that 25% of incarserated inmates are illegals. DOJ statistics show about 8% of both legal and illegal immigrants incarserared. DOJ Statistics prove Someone12 is wrong.

If that is not enough for you, Here is another web link for you. Of course, if you really want to be bold, you can look at "Why Are Immigrants' Incarceration Rates So Low? Evidence on Selective Immigration, Deterrence, and Deportation" by Kristin F. Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl. This study confirms that Someone12 statistics on immigrants in state and federal prisons are on the low end, not 25%.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hudson,

quote:

Originally posted by Houston:
I don't think the figures are the "made up" kind, they're exactly what one could expect given current law.

The larger percentage of people arrested is made out of first offenders, that's a fact. I'll restrict my comments to this larger group.

When a first offender citizen commits a crime, the person is usually given a citation and released or is able to bail out, and upon sentencing, very often released to perform community service (on petty offenses) or incarcerated to serve very short terms. This helps alleviate prison overcrowding specially in those counties that actually keep statistics.
When a first offender illegal is arrested he's automatically removable because of the illegal status. This triggers a hold on the prisoner, he or she MUST be taken into custody and may not be released until, usually, he or she is sentenced and completes his sentence (if any). Then, the prisoner is often allowed to wait in prison for a removal hearing if there's no room at the ICE facility (and that's usually the case).

Also, any illegal re-entry triggers a sentence enhancement meaning much longer times of incarceration. A very large group of EWI aliens are also involved in illegal-re-entry.

Illegals are also less likely to bail out because of economic reasons, they're constantly rejected by bondsmen and lack enough knowledge of the law and confidence in the system to actually contact a lawyer.

And you wonder why the inmate count is higher for illegal aliens than citizens. The citizen inmate population comes and goes while the alien population grows, it would be strange to find citizen inmates outnumbering alien inmates, but in some counties that's pretty much the case.

These statistics may be true, and I say "may" with a strong emphasis, but they certainly are a poor indicative of actual crime rate.

Although this was well and good, Someone12, SundevilUSA, and others of like mind are actually insuating that 25% of all incarerated person in federal and state prisons are illegal aliens. This is blatently false as shown with the DOJ statistics. It is approximately 7%-8% of all incarserated inmates are immmigrants, legal or illegal. Their definintion of illegal would include most USC if placed into the same braod definition or category.

dear Hudson: the site you posted is ancient...a report from just 3 years ago stated that 17% of the population of FEDERAL prisons were illegals, not even counting state prisons. Another report shows California spending nearly $1.5 Billion incarcerating illegals...so don't gimme this krap that there are only 3 illegals in the can in the US....bull$hit. They are spreading like disease (which they are)...
last year a DHS report estimated something like 28% of the prison population (fed, state, local) were illegals....my question...who needs 'em? (answer: apparently only braindead village idiots...well, fine, let's ship the whole group to Greenland)...
illegal is illegal is criminal, no matter at what level....only those with IQs in the mid-double digits cannot grasp this simple fact.

and another example of those "good-hearted, hard working" illegals, none of which are in prison.....(sure)..

ATHENS, Ala. A man who pleaded guilty to murder in the stabbing death of his wife at a mobile home in the Tanner community has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.

District Attorney Kristi Valls said 42-year-old Fernando Nolasco Mendez accepted a plea bargain in circuit court yesterday.

Valls said Mendez will be deported to Mexico when he is released from prison because is an illegal immigrant.

Authorities said Mendez stabbed his wife, 28-year-old Macaria Archundie Martinez at their mobile home off U-S 31 in March 2005.

Chief Investigator Stanley McNatt said the couple's ten-year-old son woke up and saw his father coming out of the bedroom, covered in blood. He said Mendez reportedly told his son he didn't have a mama anymore and told him to call 9-1-1.

McNatt said Mendez's wife had told him that she wanted to leave him because she had found someone else.

Just remember this: No illegal immigrant ever assassinated the President of America.

But there're lots of illegal who have assasinated and killed US law enforcement officials, both at state and federal level.

quote:

Originally posted by Someone12:
dear Hudson: the site you posted is ancient...a report from just 3 years ago stated that 17% of the population of FEDERAL prisons were illegals, not even counting state prisons. Another report shows California spending nearly $1.5 Billion incarcerating illegals...so don't gimme this krap that there are only 3 illegals in the can in the US....bull$hit. They are spreading like disease (which they are)...
last year a DHS report estimated something like 28% of the prison population (fed, state, local) were illegals....my question...who needs 'em? (answer: apparently only braindead village idiots...well, fine, let's ship the whole group to Greenland)...
illegal is illegal is criminal, no matter at what level....only those with IQs in the mid-double digits cannot grasp this simple fact.

1. The cite you are referring to Someone12 is the fact that local jails are being used to hold deportable aliens, legal or illegal. Not that they have committed a felonous act either in state or federal jurisdiction.

2. If you have bothered, instead of being outright lazy, of researching immigration law, you would sse that most violations is of a civil nature, not criminal. If you even look at the USCIS statistics of those aliens who are deportable, how many of those cases are sent to DOJ for prosecution, that means criminal activity. This is a good indication, although not an accurate legal brief, of how complicated immigration law really is. Houston was dead right in stating that immigration law is hyper technical and overtly complicated while not adjusting to the business and family realities. In fact, it has been said that the long waiting times tend to increase the incidence of foregoing the legal process, even those who have higher degrees of education.

3. This means that the simple logic of "illegal is illegal is criminal" does not fit into the realities of immigration law, or any other law for that matter.

4. No one here is stating that all illegals are angels just as all USC are angels. This is a completely moronic statement, even by your standards. The overt fact is that you purposeely misconstrue the facts, evidence, and even the situation while lumping most aliens into the illegal category. This is hillarious coming from you since the military never uses the USMJ as the bible, more like a guide book when appropiate.

A crime is a violation of criminal law, or the commission of an act defined specifically as a "crime" by the action of the statute. A civil violation is, by exclusion, not a crime. Acts that would violate due process are "allowed" in immigration proceedings under the broad construction of such proceedings as civil. Therefore, to assume that immigration offenses are crimes would be negating the very principles upon which the Service operates.

But more importantly than stating the obvious, immigration law tends to recklessly combine criminal and civil issues and practices without clearly defining the boundaries. In criminal proceedings the rules of evidence and criminal law apply without exception and there's clear guidelines aimed to protect, not the accused, but the integrity and fairness of the process. Immigration proceedings because of their civil nature ignore the principles of criminal law. Due process, search and seizure, Miranda and many other well-known matters are diminished or completely ignored, but we're not dealing with a proceeding that will result in some fine, restitution or a restraining order, we're dealing with mandatory indefinite detentions and permanent banishment from the country. These "civil penalties" have been compared to have the same weight as a sentence to life in prison by some Courts and other individuals involved in the application of the law.

A person who breaks the speed limit to transport a victim to the hospital may be acquitted because of a lack of criminal intent or because of exceptional circumstances. A person who makes a false claim of citizenship to obtain employment and support a family is punished by permanent inadmissibility and immediate removal, even in the absence of a criminal intent. If "working" is such a negative factor why would the Senate and many other House initiatives consider it a "positive factor" towards legalization. Why would an IJ be directed to consider employment as a "positive factor" under CURRENT LAW?

Usually, and by operation of the law, an applicant may not be found to have "good moral character" when the applicant fails to pay child support, fails to provide for family members or abandons his family exposing them to hardship. But how is somebody supposed to support a family without employment? If employment is such a positive factor in cancellation cases how come that the very act that allows most aliens to obtain employment is considered an unwaivable offense?

How come that a criminal who commits murder but enters a plea to involuntary manslaughter is able to obtain an immigrant visa without waivers or any difficulty for that matter while a person who obtains employment to provide for a family is punished as the worst kind of offender? If the issue was really fraud, then 212(i) wouldn't exist. If obtaining employment is such an evill offense and may not be waived, where's the logic that would discourage a person from turning to crime to obtain financial resources, after all, crimes such as larceny may be waived and failure to support a family is grounds for removal?

The statutes say one thing, but they're applied in any conceivable way. 212(h) is not subject to the heat of the courts because of the opinion in Jean changing the hardship standard. But even then, hardship is nothing but a subjective concept, what's hard for a person may be harder to another. There's no consideration of this simple fact in the law.

Immigration law has turned into a complicated and confusing regulatory statute. The courts are filled with IJ's decisions, continuously being reversed because of misapplication or misunderstanding of the law. But aliens are supposed to know, fully understand and follow these laws to the letter. Immigration law is also difficult because it's dynamic. Not only does it change all the time, but it also evolves geographically because of the so-called "circuit law". What's true in California may not be true, legal or forbidden in Colorado. But again, aliens and not judges or even government officials are supposed to know all of these, every time, in every case.

These problems and many others are evidence of a statute that fails to consider the most fundamental aspect of reality. INA is not some algorithm intended to control machines but human beings instead. What may be true in one case may not be true in another. Human beings are not standard pieces of equipment, all persons are different, all families are different and human relations are complex and not trivial. Therefore, failure to consider human nature in a statute intended to rule and control human beings is a fundamental flaw. The arrogant presumption that reality and individuals will someday adapt to the law instead of producing a law that adapts to reality and the complexities of human nature has produced a problem exponentially worse than the problem it was aimed at correcting.

Congress is however a very capable institution formed by highly competent individuals. They have the tools, knowledge and power to carefully craft legislation that will solve, or at least alleviate, the problem in a comprehensive and effective way. Change is needed, and it's needed now.

Someone 12- you are way too into this stressful, never ending argument. I thought my life had gaping holes in it....

I am interested in keeping my life and lifestyle from being stolen or ruined by illegal aliens.
Many of their braindead supporters for reasons only known to themselves believe that illegals should be rewarded...yet would Houston, Hudson, Macyuhoo and other circle**** participants reward bank robbers by giving them a new getaway car, or drunk drivers a fresh six-pack or even a modest speeder a new car? (well, some of them are stupid enough that they might do so)...yet these clowns seem to think it is ok to dole out green cards or work visas to illegals as a reward for breaking our immigration laws.....talk about a lack of common sense and patriotism....so, I keep up the good fight, at home and at work, to rid the US of every illegal alien, no matter what phoney excuses they claim "made them" overstay or hop our border.

I don't believe in rewarding crime, however, I don't believe in throwing a death sentence on a convicted petty thief. The law itself, the same law many here claim must be observed, specifically calls for proportionate punishment, it''s also the same law specifically defines crime and civil violations.

I didn't mention anything that's not already there, didn't make any observation that hasn't already been discussed in the judicial context.

If you're sick you can chose to blame others for your illness, you can go through all those stages of denial and anger... or you can accept your share of responsibility and follow a course of treatment that'll make you all better. Now, medicine doesn't taste good and nobody likes shots or surgery, but sometimes they're what's needed. I'm not the one calling "illegal immigration a disease" but I'm saying that willful blindness to the real problems of the law will not get the problem fixed, that's for sure.