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Power Member
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LEGAL foreign students pay; illegal ones use fake SSNs and IDs to obtain federal loans which these slime***** NEVER repay!
And what do we say to prospective foreign students who are saving money or garnering sponsors to apply to study LEGALLY in the United States when we even consider rewarding illegal alien students? If their parents (the illegals') were too **** irresponsible to play by our rules, we don't need to infect our gene pool by rewarding their offspring with benefits often unobtainable by US citizens!! Beee effen esss!
Send these whining illegal college students back to their own country and let 'em cry all day....they deserve droppings from the bottom of a bird cage and nothing more. They have been scamming US taxpayers out of thousands of dollars by their mere presence in our public schools....and still they want more (and somehow feel like they deserve it!!!)...when does it end? I say it ends when the bus pulls up in front of the airport and we boot their sorry behinds out of the bus and onto the tarmac and wave 'em good-bye.
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Senior Member
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Hudson, your comment:
"One of the most underdeveloped resources the US has is its collegiate scholastics. I am all in favor of continueing that relatinship. The assistanceships are awarded to best qualified, not which country one resides in. However, those assistanceships generally mean that the foreign student will get in state tuition, but are still not eligible for most financial aide packages. In graduate school, they may be eligible, but are also required to fulfill certain obligations that most US students do not want."
is entirely your opinion. The assitantships are awarded at the discretion of each department. You are assuming, as many do, that merit would be the qualifying factor.
An assitantship requires 20 hours of on campus employment with the deparment. Why would you assume that no American would want this? I think it would be an ideal situation for a single parent or someone who is working part time off campus. The stipend works out to above market compensation especially if tuition is included.
Furthermore, it is not true (in my state at least) a foreign student awarded an assistantship has his tuition credited at on out of state rate.
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by AliBA:
And the reason American students don't want those positions, Hudson, is because the opportunity cost for Americans to take them is too great. Americans don't need green cards to work; foreign students do (or an F-1 visa). Americans can and do work for salaries and what they'd earn from doing a graduate degree won't make up for the foregone income.
One of the reasons why American students do not take assistanceships is because the the additional options for obtaining financing. American students can obtain jobs outside the classroom with much greater need, more easily accessible to internships and co-op programs without obtaining worker authorization doucuments, federal and state financial aid that is not available to international students, and family support that has its own unique advantages of obtaining financing. This is not to mention the relatively close proximity higher education, particularily regional colleges/universities, community colleges (which are much cheaper than state subsidized higher education), and technical colleges, which can offer a career in electronics, communicatinos, IT, and the medical fields, just to name a few. To summarize, the options available to nativists greatly outweigh the options available to foreign students and assistanceships, if given permission by USCIS, can work with relatively ease and not have to depend on auto transportation. Furthermore, quote: You might also note that universities, especially research institutions, like the cheap compliant labor that students provide in general, and from foreign students in particular. When I was in grad school, the dept. typically assigned Asian students to work for one particularly demanding prof because they'd put up with her without complaint. This same school was recently struck by its graduate assistants for better pay and working conditions. The less they can pay research assistants the more money available for other purposes from their government grants.
OK, so how is that possible given the reguatory requirements of SEVIS and DOL who maintain that jobs cannot be used to take away from US citizens. Or is this an attempt to criminalize even legal immigrants who want to come here to study, work, or for family?
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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But assistantships aren't considered "jobs" in the sense you're talking about, Hudson. They're considered part of the student's education, in much that way that OPT is. At least, that's the excuse used for not paying teaching and research assistants more--it's considered part of their training. I taught as a teaching assistant for a couple of years. I taught the same class that the chairman of the department who was a leading authority and author of widely used textbooks did. The students paid the same amount for my class as they did for his, but they paid me substantially less to teach it. Why? Because I was a "student".
And yes, there are more sources of funding available to Americans, but then, why shouldn't there be? Since most of these rely on funds or backing from US taxpayers and the federal government, including work study programs. Students these days often end up working IN ADDITION TO loans and scholarships. Even then, American students these days end up in debt doing a four-year degree because tuition and other expenses such as texts are rising faster than inflation in general. In fact, it's becoming ever harder for American students to be able to go on for graduate degrees because they're racking up large debts as undergrads and need to work to pay it off. Again, the opportunity cost of graduate school is much greater for Americans than for foreign students, particularly when you factor in the latter's desire for green cards.
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Senior Member
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Two Cents on Illegal Immigration Jim Bacon comments :
illegal immigration is a unavoidably a state/local problem when illegal immigrants apply for food stamps, seek medical care and attend overcrowded, fiscally stressed schools. These problems cannot be fobbed onto the federal government. The problems are inherently local, and they're real.
Do we hear that? Republicans. Arguing that people should be shooed off because they are adversely impacting our socialized safety net of food stamps, medical care, and public schools.
Does anyone else see the problem here?
Let's be brutally honest. The reason why these programs are failing isn't because of the impact of illegal immigration. They're failing because they are traditionally societal roles that are being hijacked by a government bent on stressing socialism rather than individualism.
To fork over the failure of these institutions upon a convenient class of people isn't exactly what I would call just, though it certainly is a predictable repetition of history with respects to human nature.
Setting aside the contradiction conservatives offer defending liberally-imposed social agendas, what we have here is an appeal to that old American fear of "the other". That when something doesn't go well, we find some group of people to blame. At first it was the British, then the French, then Indians, next the Irish, extending to Catholics, then to Slavs, then to African-Americans, and currently with anyone of Arab descent. History does indeed repeat.
Now in an age where our open borders and socialized government system have been under threat, we are presented with illegal immigration. And it's not a stretch to say that when people speak of "illegal immigration," it's shorthand for Latin Americans crossing the Mexican border, and not grandma from the Ukraine stuffed into a duffle bag on the next Delta flight.
Here is where the rubber meets the road. Conservativism in my mind (and a slight deviation from the definition Ken Cuccinelli gave this morning) operates on the principles of free markets, free people, and a free society. That comes with a price tag, starting with the rules necessary to make socieities free.
If the concerns from the Howell bench stem from the impact illegal aliens have on our social programs, then what precisely is the problem then? As a conservative, I might suggest that the problem isn't so much the presence of illegal immigrants per se, but rather the presence of government, a presence conservatives are supposed to be fighting against.
Seeing this, let's argue in hypotheticals. If the social programs these illegal aliens are supposedly straining to the breaking point ceased to exist tomorrow, would the opposition be so strong?
Now one might argue yes, and I'll offer two generalized scenarios:
(1) Yes Shaun, they should still be removed because they are here in the United States illegally.
Then remove them, as is the federal governments responsibility to do so.
(2) Yes Shaun, they should still be removed because they are filthy Mexicans.
Then I say you're a racist, and deserve to be beaten to a d*amn pulp.
So the argument boils down accordingly. The argument against illegal immigration is either (1) a decision policy makers in Washington - not Richmond - need to develop and enforce, or (2) one motivated purely on the fear of "the other" and based on race. Propping up decaying social programs and using illegal immigrants as the scapegoat is only making a bad situation terribly worse.
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When the creations of a genius collide with the mind of a layman, and produce an empty sound, there is little doubt as to which is at fault.
One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.
Those who do not want to imitate anything, create nothing.
Salvador Dali~
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| Posts: 552 | Location: NJ | Registered: 08-08-2006 | |
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by Sugarpuff:
is entirely your opinion. The assitantships are awarded at the discretion of each department. You are assuming, as many do, that merit would be the qualifying factor.
An assitantship requires 20 hours of on campus employment with the deparment. Why would you assume that no American would want this? I think it would be an ideal situation for a single parent or someone who is working part time off campus. The stipend works out to above market compensation especially if tuition is included.
Furthermore, it is not true (in my state at least) a foreign student awarded an assistantship has his tuition credited at on out of state rate.
Assistanceships are for on campus work only as to not violate IRC 3121 laws not to withhold FICA taxes. If a student is full-time, irregardless of whether one is legal or not, then FICA taxes must be withheld. However, assistanceships, if paid by the university directly and without reinbursement, do not fall under the federal work study program. Additionally, US students have more options available than foreign students and can easily get internships or co-op programs to gain valuable work experience without first obtaining a work authorization. Thus, US students have far more options than foreign students and if one is solely determined or has the only option of getting an assistanceship at the school they are attending, then perhaps one needs ot rethink about the educational choices. Each state has its own residency requirements and that is why I said "generally." In my state, for one to be a resident, one must live at a physical address within the state and work for one whole year to become a resident. Assistanceships in some states can give a person in state tuition if that state establishes that would then make the person eligible for in state tuition, but it depends upon the state. If you look further, there is no uniform law about state residency requirements.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Senior Member
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SEVIS is like a police department parking an empty squad car next to a busy intersection. It may be an effective deterent, but as an enforcement tool it is lacking. Resources are to blame, plain and simple.
Your opinions regarding the employment options available to American students outside of campus assume a good economy. This is the basis of my argument regarding public opinion about immigration:
In good economic times everybody is welcome because employment is plentiful. In bad economic times when employment is harder to come by citizenship matters and it matters a lot.
Look at silicon valley after the dot com crash. 18 months before the crash Clinton passed a bill doubling the number of H-1bs awarded and everyone cheered. Yes, yes we need more Indian IT so my dot com company that makes no money can keep increasing its stock value. My portfolio LOVES foreigners!
After the crash the attitude in the heart of democratic blue country california was so anti-immigrant it almost could be defined as xenophobic.
Its all about resources, always has been and always will be.
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by Sugarpuff:
SEVIS is like a police department parking an empty squad car next to a busy intersection. It may be an effective deterent, but as an enforcement tool it is lacking. Resources are to blame, plain and simple.
Your opinions regarding the employment options available to American students outside of campus assume a good economy. This is the basis of my argument regarding public opinion about immigration:
In good economic times everybody is welcome because employment is plentiful. In bad economic times when employment is harder to come by citizenship matters and it matters a lot.
Look at silicon valley after the dot com crash. 18 months before the crash Clinton passed a bill doubling the number of H-1bs awarded and everyone cheered. Yes, yes we need more Indian IT so my dot com company that makes no money can keep increasing its stock value. My portfolio LOVES foreigners!
After the crash the attitude in the heart of democratic blue country california was so anti-immigrant it almost could be defined as xenophobic.
Its all about resources, always has been and always will be.
The best way to describe the economy is mixed with some sectors doing well and some are not. In my state, ten of the 40 fastest growing IT companies is located in my area. I am in the financial services field and make very good money while the industry as a whole is very solid. But the key is small businesses, those businesses who have less than $5 million in assets and/or 50 employees or less. They make up 70% or so of total employment, but less than 30% of total GDP. Midsize and large companies, including MNC, make up less than 30% of the total employment while contributing 70% of the GDP. This is called economies of scale. The main problem that I see is that individuals do not invest, save, and spend wisely. Most people do not know how to control their spending, save for the future, and invest in the future to make their assets grow. They are more likely out for the quick buck and you see it everyday with Anthony Robbins and the other self help gurus.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Senior Member
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Going along with that notion is the main problem I see: people who are not planning for the future but are living for the moment. Personal debt has grown dramatically over the past decade.
In my opinion we are about to see the downside to one of the greatest ponzi schemes ever pulled off: the houing bubble. How many people convinced themselves that their houses were worht 2 to 3 times (or more) what they paid for it and "tapped their equity" to buy luxury items? Debt somehow became equal to wealth.
Again, just my humble opinion, but I think tHere are going to be alot of people financially ruined because of the housing bubble. This will mean an increase in collecitive stress. People will be angry and cynical.
I don't think that equates to a good environment for people trying to immigrate legally much less illegally.
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by AliBA:
But assistantships aren't considered "jobs" in the sense you're talking about, Hudson. They're considered part of the student's education, in much that way that OPT is. At least, that's the excuse used for not paying teaching and research assistants more--it's considered part of their training. I taught as a teaching assistant for a couple of years. I taught the same class that the chairman of the department who was a leading authority and author of widely used textbooks did. The students paid the same amount for my class as they did for his, but they paid me substantially less to teach it. Why? Because I was a "student".
And yes, there are more sources of funding available to Americans, but then, why shouldn't there be? Since most of these rely on funds or backing from US taxpayers and the federal government, including work study programs. Students these days often end up working IN ADDITION TO loans and scholarships. Even then, American students these days end up in debt doing a four-year degree because tuition and other expenses such as texts are rising faster than inflation in general. In fact, it's becoming ever harder for American students to be able to go on for graduate degrees because they're racking up large debts as undergrads and need to work to pay it off. Again, the opportunity cost of graduate school is much greater for Americans than for foreign students, particularly when you factor in the latter's desire for green cards.
Depends on how you look at things. If one becomes a physician, do you think they stop going to school and stop learning? What about every other profession, Aliba? Do you think I have stopped learning about taxes and other financial products? No, I have not. With maybe the exception with unskilled service industry jobs, most jobs are an education in how one handles pressure, responsibilities, interaction with others, goals, and performance/critique. In retrospect, assistanceships are jobs, just very convenient jobs which most people want the income, but not the hassle. As for debt, their is an adage if one goes into debt for the future, then one has invested in the future and not gone into debt. Yes, debt should be held a minimal when situations call for, that is why you are seiing an increase in non-traditional students and an increase in enrollment in community colleges. To prospective students with little equity financial support, this is probably the best option for them. The tuition is cheap and most clases can easily fit into a student schedule. As for scholarships, most go unclaimed because most do not apply for such, even if it is for $500. The main problem that I see is that no one knows the value of the dollar and how to save, even when going into debt.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by Sugarpuff:
Going along with that notion is the main problem I see: people who are not planning for the future but are living for the moment. Personal debt has grown dramatically over the past decade.
In my opinion we are about to see the downside to one of the greatest ponzi schemes ever pulled off: the houing bubble. How many people convinced themselves that their houses were worht 2 to 3 times (or more) what they paid for it and "tapped their equity" to buy luxury items? Debt somehow became equal to wealth.
Again, just my humble opinion, but I think tHere are going to be alot of people financially ruined because of the housing bubble. This will mean an increase in collecitive stress. People will be angry and cynical.
I don't think that equates to a good environment for people trying to immigrate legally much less illegally.
And you want to use immigration as a scapegoat for the problems you have created? The housing bubble has not collapsed and I do not foresee that happening, even under today's situation. In fact, the housing market kept the economy going between 2000 through 2004. But people using their homes like ATM's are really going to be financially hurt, even with the current low mortgage rates still available.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Senior Member
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I am not saying it should be used as a scapegoat I just think it will. Human nature (as it has evolved) is to lash out instead of looking within.
I heard someone ask this question: "why is it that we fear higher oil prices but welcome higher housing prices?"
I drive along the NJ coast and see a lot of for sale signs.
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Senior Member
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quote: Human nature (as it has evolved) is to lash out instead of looking within.
How true ! Now if you would only read your own posts, not to be a hypocrite at least.. quote: But people using their homes like ATM's are really going to be financially hurt..
Not subject matter of this thread, but also VERY TRUE. The simplest and only way to financial security is to spend WITHIN one's means. Too hard a lesson for many to learn..
___________________________________
When the creations of a genius collide with the mind of a layman, and produce an empty sound, there is little doubt as to which is at fault.
One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.
Those who do not want to imitate anything, create nothing.
Salvador Dali~
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| Posts: 552 | Location: NJ | Registered: 08-08-2006 | |
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by Sugarpuff:
I am not saying it should be used as a scapegoat I just think it will. Human nature (as it has evolved) is to lash out instead of looking within.
Immigration, especially legal immigration, is already being used as a scapegoat when you look at anti-immigration or immigration restrictionist policies within the environmental, political, and business movements. And it is the main theme of the nativist movement.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by AliBA:
Gee--I wonder if the state and federal governments would buy the argument that because I pay taxes on goods and services, I don't have to pay income taxes!
Well Aliba, you can always do the Wesley Snipes thing and see how far it gets you? 
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Senior Member
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Another 'genius' spin-master wishes to bring tax-fraud issues into the debate of immigration policy. Responce to this is very simple: Tax Laws (the Code) may be too complex if one owns corporation earning fifty billion dollars a year, but when it comes to newcomers working in minimum-paying, low-skill/entry-level jobs it's indeed very simple: There is a minimum income threshhold that obliges the income earner to file yearly tax-returns ( go to IRS website or read ANY booklet prepared to instruct on yearly tax-filing). In fact, those who earn BELOW the minimum ( should they file tax-returns) would be entitled to income-tax credit. And unless you have just escaped from lunatic asylum, you know that there is no criminal penalty for forefeiting/not asking the Federal Government for income-tax refund (the only purpose the tax filing in such cases would actually serve). But there is a criminal penalty, and very stiff one, for those whose income is higher than the calculated minimum and who avoids filing tax returns in order NOT to pay ANY amount owed to the Federal Government. If ANY person, regardless of Immigration Status, VIOLATES the Tax Code - PROSECUTE THEM !Bring them to justice IRRESPECTIVE of Immigration Status !But don't use this subject to imply that all illegals or immigrants are violating the Tax Code, or liable for those who do.
___________________________________
When the creations of a genius collide with the mind of a layman, and produce an empty sound, there is little doubt as to which is at fault.
One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.
Those who do not want to imitate anything, create nothing.
Salvador Dali~
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| Posts: 552 | Location: NJ | Registered: 08-08-2006 | |
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Regular Member
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quote: Originally posted by iperson:
"Rarely any foreign students pay for college"
And where do you get that information?
I paid $50.000 for my BFA. Class 2003, top 5% graduating class, Magna C*um Laude. (sorry, had to insert the asterix)
Paid three times as much the tuition as American students. While a reside
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