Originally posted by davdah: She has read everything I posted. I actually encouraged her to read it. Yes, I have been asked to explain some of it. I am sure I have been checked up on. All women do that to some extent. And, not to play favorites we men do it to. A usual part of the initial courtship ritual.
I don't assume all women are scum. What I believe is bad behaviour has no bias. Women can and do think independently and are capabale of most things men are, good and bad.
I won't deny it or sugar coat it either. I didn't. The only part I had to really explain was some of the technicalities and legal ramifications so it would make sense. That being said. I'm glad it was done. If she was comfortable enough to ask then I have to give a straight answer. Otherwise the communcication will eventually turn to silence. .
The point was not whether your live in girlfried did it, the point was what if she did and accused you at the same time, making certain accusations. Most people will get defensive for one reason or another. That is a perfect natural response. That was the piont. Ro to put it another way, try waling in someone else's shoes and see what it is like.
But the other problem you have is you tend to believe one side without knowing all the facts from the other side. Until you know for sure, do not presume anything.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
There weren't any accusatory conversations if that was what you were getting at. Granted, it took a little explaining to justify the associated guilt with the silent party. But much of that is not just what the person had to say but how it was said.
For example. Mike made several references to how much he loves her. I would venture to guess he felt as though he had to prove his love to her on a regular basis. Probably with most prior girlfriends. This women who came from an abused controlling marriage looked at him as being the knight in shining armor at first. Then weak once the threat was gone. She had the power in the relationship. A power she doesn't seem to want. Hence the reason for going back to Ivan. I don't buy the story of incest. She and her family concocted that to demonize the X more than anything else. The spying probably started before there was a real reason to do it. Not so overt. Maybe an extended glance over her shoulder while she was on line, things like that.
I believe she is using him and has no respect for him due to her view of his weakness. Biding her time until she is in a better position to leave. Wrong no matter how you slice it.
I suppose your giving me a what if. I can't say how that would go. Wev'e had our arguments. We're both a bit stubborn and bull headed so its inevitable.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5757 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Originally posted by davdah: Concerning the property. The house belongs to the mother. If the son and her are paying any sort of rent a tenancy relationship exists. If the wife files a kick out order it has nothing to do with the tenancy or the landlord. The mother has every legal right to evict her if she chooses. Do you think this women is going to be kind to the property? Any hope of recovering damages? Not a bet I would take.
For the kick out order to work, one or both need to be living in the property "legally." But it also has to do with domestic violence. Nothing in what she has said or what he has said indicated he has committed the abuse. The abuse, coming from him on what she said, was that she was abused by her ex husband. If we hold this premise true, it could explain a lot of behavior. My intention has been that she needs seriously counseling if abuse from her first husband is valid, but how to prove it?
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She is withdrawn due to abuse? Did you read what he wrote about her private shows for her X on the web cam? Doesn't sound too withdrawn to me. Sounds more like she is using her ass_ets to lure him back. Not every women is a helpless victim with no will power or strength. Most are actually just the opposit. You really need to lighten up on that angle Hudson. Instead of spending so much time at the shelter hang around a N.O.W. convention for a day or two. Get a balanced view.
Sometimes cyberspace is an escape from reality. This may be what she is doing irregardless of whether the abuse allegation is true or not. From what he said, she does not talk to him. It could be from abuse, or lack of communication, or something else. We simply don't know and some are assuming facts that are not yet identified into evidence.
However, do not presume anything on me. You do not know what I am and not capable of, Davdah. Nor do you know what I have seen and experienced on both sides of the spectrum. The domestic abuse, that she said is coming from the ex, is probably true. People simply do not make this up in order to "demonize" the ex. If this is true, then why does the family not want to talk about him, including the new husband? That simply does not make sense?
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Being he doesn't make much. If I recall his mom had to co-sign for the I-864. There isn't much for this women to go after financially. Still, the remaining part of the 10 yrs is a stiff sentence regardless of the amount.
He is in a difficult situation. If she could move out AND place a real hurt on him, she would have done so by now, in most circumstances. The I-864 is a stiff sentence on the mother, which may be an indication of why she has not done anything. But again, you are making the presumption which we do not know both sides.
quote:
I agree it would be nice if there could be a 'friendly' divorce. That was why I sudgested the idea of point blank telling her he knows the entire story. Leave nothing to hide and see how she responds. If she fesses up then it may be possible. If she denies, denies, denies, then prepare for the inevitable.
Having him do it calmly will not accomplish anything is the two of them are not communicating at all. That is why i offered a nuetral party to witness the event. it would lessen the chance of any VAWA claim and possibly bridge the communication gap between them, not that it would matter much. For a divorce to go smoothly, both sides will need to agree. If one side wants to be a hardass, then the divorce will be contested. The only question is who will be the hardass? If the guy throws the book at her, he becomes the hardass. If she just wants to use the property until she graduates from college, she becomes the hardass. Get the point now?
Asking for an ultimatum, that is asking her if she wants the ex back, will not solve anything. The relationship is dead, kaput, finished, over, the fat lady is singing very loud right now. He has given up. I don't blame him. And even though the relationship did not work out, he can still do the honorable thing. Getting help from her friends, or going to the counselor to state he wants the divorce, or she miracously moves out, will make help make the transition go smoothly, even though it will still be painful anyway.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hudson,
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
You two are the greatest! Both highly intelligent, thoughtful, and quite precise with your thoughts...I don't know how, but please believe me I'm very grateful to you. Your insights have helped me tremendously get out of my depression and feeling of hopelessness. I was so distraught until I started trying to find some help out there in the grand universe of the internet. God really works in mysterious ways, doesn't he?
If I may copy what you said Dahdah: "For example. Mike made several references to how much he loves her. I would venture to guess he felt as though he had to prove his love to her on a regular basis. Probably with most prior girlfriends. This women who came from an abused controlling marriage looked at him as being the knight in shining armor at first. Then weak once the threat was gone. She had the power in the relationship. A power she doesn't seem to want. Hence the reason for going back to Ivan. I don't buy the story of incest. She and her family concocted that to demonize the X more than anything else. The spying probably started before there was a real reason to do it. Not so overt. Maybe an extended glance over her shoulder while she was on line, things like that."
You nailed the proving thing right on the head. I didn't stop just because she came into this country, or got "big headed" like "hey look at me! I'm the big-shot American! And now you're on MY turf!" I did everythinng possible to be certain that I never belittled her....when she wanted to 'redo' the house, I took her where ever she wanted to look at things, we picked out things according to her taste and the price tag (she actually watched the prices of things.) I went out of my way to prove I loved her, because I loved her. She never had a collection of anything. In those countries over there I think it's considered really materialistic - plus, they'd rather spend lots of money on a really good car, then collect something like stamps. For me, I'm a huge StarWars fan....been ever since 1977 when I was six. When my wife saw my collection, she went bug-eyed! To have some fun, I started her on barbies. She got the ones she liked, each of the holiday ones, and passed up the ones she said, "had an ugly face." Of course that fun stopped last year, but I even tried to see if she might enjoy having a small collection of something that she could call her own. Honestly gentlemen...I've tried EVERYTHING... My mother's best friend, whom she also works with, said to her recently, "it's amazing that she can be treating him this way when she walked into this country, into this marriage with nothing." My mother said this to me... I then said to my mother, "NEVER - think that way. She walked into this country and into this marriage because I loved her, and she (supposedly) loved me. I didn't EXPECT ANYTHING from her. To say that now puts ME down as if I should have had my hand out from the beginning." You're right in saying I don't make much money. I'm a greenhouse business owner...I grow all those bedding plants you see all over the place for homes, businesses, landscapers, and such. It's a ton of work with little monetary reward. But it's what I love to do and I and I do it good. My business is right outside my backdoor, and I started it 13 years ago from absolute scratch, also while paying off student loans. I started my own business "in a hole" and it's taken me this long to actually start seeing some real profit. My mother suggested keeping the house and property in her name because (this I don't understand but I guess it's part of politics) because she is a widowed woman, there is a better tax break than if it were in my name. Otherwise I would have bought all this off of her long ago. She didn't want to sell it to me; rather she said for me to take care of the taxes while she takes care of the last bit of mortgage on it all. I've lived this way so long, I never even considered that when I got married my home and all was protected, indirectly. When my marriage took a turn for the worst, my mother politely and privately reminded me of this. Hooray for moms?
When I saw my wife for the first time, I had absolutely NO idea what would happen if things clicked, and I had no idea...if things clicked how much money things would cost... I didn't care. I'd get a second job if I had too, just to be happy and have the honor of being with a woman that said she loved me and was happy. I almost DID take a second job, actually! Anyway, I've done this with past relationships...you were right on that one. To give you an idea of something... (I find this to be mentally rewarding like, whatever I did I did it good) - a couple of my past girlfriend's MOTHER'S are customers of mine! They come each and every year to get plants for their homes! Even though the relationship ended, either by me or her, their mother's are still willing to come and support my efforts by buying my flowers? wow!
My wife is the oldest of four - she was always the one in charge around the house when her mother and father were at work for long hours. She practically raised her brother and sisters on her own. This much I can believe as truth because the many times I've been to Ukraine, I've watched quietly how communications went around the house. She always had a "in charge" attitude there. For me, it's always difficult to let someone else be in charge...****, I'm an Aries, a business owner, and a man...I'm supposed to be in charge! But I loved her very much and again I didn't want to belittle her at all. Perhaps I gave her too much? Maybe she DID, as Davdah said used my weakness against me, which is truely my heart, and bided her time until she was in a better position to leave.
Here's a funny point for you: after I asked her to marry me and we were at the airport getting ready to come here, I met her father's best friend. I can't spell out his full first name, but for short it's Max. I personally live in South Jersey. Wouldn't you know that Max made his new home in Central Jersey, along with his wife, daughter, grandkids, and son-in-law??? I thought it was really cool at first, that my wife had someone here in the states that we could go too and she could see on a regular basis, just as she did in Ukraine. As you said about questioning everything: I'm wondering about the odds of this being just a coincidence. If I may add here, this is why I got "my feathers up really badly" when I learned that she was all over government websites trying to learn about and file for the green card lottery for her family and all.
Max was in Ukraine because he returned there to sell his old home there. He was in the process of returning to the states until something happened with his travel documents. He had to stay there in Ukraine for something like another two years. His wife could travel to him to see him, but he couldn't leave until his paperwork was all straightened out. I don't know what happened but eventually it got straightened out and now I'm seeing his phone number show up on my caller ID.
I honestly don't remember when I first started to doubt my wife's honesty, but it was a long while ago...OH WAIT - now I remember, it was three months after we got married! She asked me one night in our kitchen, "when are we going to start having children?" My jaw dropped through the kitchen floor. When it returned to it's normal position, I asked her, "we just got married...you don't want to travel around and see the states?" She then said, "what for!?" Okay. Well, I have no health insurance! So thus began a mass-information search on health insurance plans. To make a long story short, I couldn't afford what was needed, so I said, "can we wait another year until we're in a better position to get good coverage?" Her next words were, "if we weren't going to have children right away, why didn't you tell me this in Ukraine????" I was BLOWN away... That was when I started to wonder...
Originally posted by Hudson: And besides, domestic abuse shelters also have men, there even one guy who is *** and his domestic partner abused him. Physical abuse has no excuse, but I could make an exception just for you. Now, that would be an honor!
I take that as a threat. Is there some petition I can now file that will give me some benefit?
Also since I am not g ay is there a shelter I can flee too besides the county jail? All This gender bias is getting me down.
Originally posted by max-one: I take that as a threat. Is there some petition I can now file that will give me some benefit?
Also since I am not g ay is there a shelter I can flee too besides the county jail? All This gender bias is getting me down.
So, why should I be helping you?
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
She was right about the children issue. It should have been discussed back then. A good example of assumptions. Here we usually think to wait a couple years and enjoy life first. There, I guess its thought of as one of the reasons to get married, why wait. One of the problems with being in an international romance is you can't assume anything. Talk about everything.
Her dads friend being in the neighborhood was probably a coincidence. Is there a high percentage of Russian immigrants in the area he is in? If yes then you shouldn't think too much about that. Don't spend too much time looking for espionage.
You were lucky that your mother's arrangements had the side benefit of making you immune from most community property grabs.
One thing. She brought up wanting to have children. If this were a scam from the onset she would have discussed it up front. She would have said, 'I don't want children'. That tells me she entered the marriage legitimately. The fraud presumption is a mute point.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5757 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Originally posted by Hudson: And besides, domestic abuse shelters also have men, there even one guy who is *** and his domestic partner abused him. Physical abuse has no excuse, but I could make an exception just for you. Now, that would be an honor!
I take that as a threat. Is there some petition I can now file that will give me some benefit?
Also since I am not g ay is there a shelter I can flee too besides the county jail? All This gender bias is getting me down.
There is a place for a straight male to go. Look at Proverbs 25:24
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5757 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
I don't know if the children issue can be taken as ligit or not. I was sincerely blown away by her reply, even after I attempted to look into what will work for us as a couple. Was there a crime committed on my part because I loved her and asked her to marry me? No, I don't think so. Was there a crime committed because AFTER marriage we talked about children and I just asked if we could have some more time to get better situated? I don't think so, but maybe it was a crime to her...I have no idea. Perhaps it is their way of life there, but I've met a lot of people over there that are young married couples and haven't had children yet - for one reason or another, the most common was they just weren't "ready" yet. So I had assumed that it was similar to us here. I don't consider it fraudulent that she wanted children right away...but it makes me wonder when I've met two other American men who had a child immediately after they married their brides from the same country and they're having similar issues of communication melt-downs. I don't dare ask them since they seem genuinely worried about their child(ren). Can you imagine if I had a child with her, and the present communication with her ex-husband? My God, I couldn't even fathom the thought of my own child being possibly way over there, with HIM and her, and I'd have to apply for a regular Visa just to see my own kid!? I know I wouldn't have to apply for a Visa, but having to travel just to see my own child??? My Mom had said she had heard of women entraping their husbands with children for support. You can't say THAT doesn't happen - I've seen it myself: children being used as bargaining chips when a marriage goes bad.
Update: last night, she asked me to help her copy a CD on her computer (a nice chance to "play" with her ICQ.) When she wasn't looking, I clicked on it and a little window popped open from "him." I said, "oh look...the ex is saying, 'hi my darling, how are you today!' Can we write him back, turn on the webcam and I can give him the finger???" She ran over to her computer and started trying to shut down ICQ. I said, "what's the problem!? I already know you two have been sharing so much for the last few weeks..." Yes, the cat is out of the bag, persay. She stood there, looking at me, and then said, "turn it off." I said, "you know..he gives new meaning to the words Mother F-----." The look on her face was priceless. I said (AT LONG LAST), " you know - I can't live like this with you anymore. I'm so sorry that I've seen this going on and I've seen and watched you literally DESTROY me to your family and your friends while playing the good little girl around me. I've seen you tell horrible lies about me, and when I've asked you questions you'd tell me only what you wanted me to know and nothing else." She said, "so what." I said, "So what!?! Interesting....well how's this for 'so what'...this is over with. I don't care anymore. I don't care what you do or say anymore, and I don't believe anything you say anymore either. You're family has long abandoned me - they all have "blocks" on my e-mail address (I tried to send over jokes and funny photos and they've been coming back as undelieverable - I've seen her able to send and receive stuff...that's how I know this) and they don't want anything to do with me - and this is LONG before your ex ever came into the picture. You want to screw around with him? Please, be my guest....but do it someplace else...cause this marriage is definitely over with." She said, "fine I'll move out Sunday." I said, "oh yeah? where!?! with what money!?! with who???" She said, "why do you care!?" I said, "actually I don't - I'm more curious as to how all of a sudden you can afford to live on your own..." She said, "I'll figure it out." I then said, " while you're figuring it out, decide what you want to do - you can move out, we can stay married on paper for the next nine months until it's time to file for citizenship. You will have to continue to use this address for your mail, driver's license, applications, etc. When stuff comes, I can call you and you can stop over and pick up your stuff. (My mom has her mail coming here too....it's not a big deal) When the time comes, we'll get together and go file - I have no idea how long it takes after that, but at least it wouldn't be another five years until you could file if you are on your own.... OR, you can move out, we go to a lawyer, file for divorce with irreconcible differences, you go your way and I go mine and that's that." She surprised the **** out of me by saying, "it'll take another year after filing...I've already asked." Here I am on here with you all trying to learn about this stuff, and she's already got answers! Hmmm... Perhaps it is another year, perhaps not. She came here on different circumstances then the persons she was asking this too...and oddly enough, she asked one who's actually here illegally. I said, "if you want, I'll try to find out what's the time between filing and actually getting the interview - you came here on a Fiancee Visa...your time frames are quite different than someone who came on a student visa and just decided to hide after her visa was up." She said nothing. I continued by saying, " you decide what will be good for you - I know what's good for me and that's having you out of here. I can't take the lies, the spying, the deceit, the betrayals anymore... I want my F'n life back in order, I want to stop smoking, I want my health back, I want MY SANITY back!" She just looked at me and said, "you know, I never married you to use you..." I just stood there. She then said, "I DID love you." I said, "you denied me your family...you denied me your friends...you denied me you....I DID love you too, but all the denial has killed me. Now, you don't trust me, and I don't trust you. It's all done with. I'm sorry to have to be the first to break all this out, but I can't live like this anymore. You need to make some decisions, tell me what you decide, and let's get this thing over with." There was no response. I think, I only think, that she didn't know I could have the '*****' to confront her, apologize for watching what she's been up too, and tell her basically to make a decision as to how to divorce and get the F out. I told her when I saw that first message I wanted to throw her out then and there. The anger in me was just far too great to think clearly so I didn't do anything but smoke heavily and think myself to calmness. I think what went down last night was far better than throwing her computer AND her out the window. She knows I had a monitoring program on her computer. My mother asked me this evening if I said exactly what I had on there. I told her no, and she said that was good because if it comes around to an all out battle, I can just say I was watching what she did but I never said "how" I did it, nor did I say the name of the program. In the heat of an argument, when the conversation escalated to stronger voices being used, I learned that a friend of mine whom I've helped out of many sticky situations threw a knife in my back. I guess that's to be expected during something like this, yes? I don't know if this will go smoothly or it will be a blood bath. In any case, I honestly just can't live like this anymore. It's totally nuts and insane! To wake up every morning, wondering what kind of stuff will I learn about her today that's going to ruin my day. Will their be another phone call from one of her friends trying to needle information out of me? Will she spend her entire day again on her computer chatting with "him?" Or will she go visit someone and have another "bash Michael" conversation. I got tired of living like this - I had to stop it all and last night was the night. I slept like a baby last night, and today I felt so tired all day long I fell asleep accidentally for four hours! It must have been more stress on me than I had thought. I'm not going to try and watch any more e-mails. I'm not going to try and watch anything anymore - in fact, I'm quite happy her spysweeper erradicated the program. I don't want to know anything else anymore. I just want to have some normalacy back in my life, even if that means I never marry again. I don't know who's responsible for this website, but it's been a very big help for me. I think I got some strengths from here that I could have never developed on my own. It's not like I have a father around to speak too, so I tend to unintentionally rely on others that are unbiased and can give me some sound advice, even if it's what I don't want to hear. I know it's all a part of growing up. ****, you can be 65 and still have a lot to learn! I'm 36 and I've felt like I was being punished from her for reasons I could never understand. When the ex suddenly popped into the picture - putting 2 and 2 together started to make sense, the lack of communication over the past years, the lack of intimacy, the lack of trust from her, it all started to make sense. Maybe my marriage wasn't a sham after all - but some immature excuse on her part to "get back at him" for not allowing her whatever it was she wanted. I think the stories about "him" aren't true and I think it's been all a smoke-screen so that she could enjoy being around somebody totally different and in a different country to try and forget about him. I guess it didn't work, and maybe because I wanted her attention and love SO MUCH, she wasn't prepared for me or anybody else to want so much. Perhaps all along she was just taken aback by all of my attentions on her and it was overwhelming...thus the lack of communcations, the councelors, the church, etc. It still doesn't justify the fact that she tore me apart in all her communications with anyone she knew. You know, all I wanted was to be happy. I wanted the chance of being a part of a new family - her family is huge, and it was happily overwhelming when I first met them all. I thought, "wow, they're all HER family and maybe they can be mine too!!!" I have no father around, no brothers, no sisters. To be a part of such a large group was so amazing to me, I didn't care where they were all from. Here was a wonderful chance to be a part of her life and her family! Then her friends...she had so many of them! I thought again about how they would all be OUR friends. I thought how wonderful it would have been to have a child or two, how they would have such a wonderful opportunity to know they have family here and way over there. It was nicely overwhelming! Then, when she wasn't over there anymore - from the point of Poland to here, her whole demeanor changed. I worked so hard at the beginning of this marriage to make her happy. As I had said before, I made sure I didn't do anything to make her feel unworthy, I was sure of it. For the life of me I could NEVER figure out why she was telling people that I was not treating her right, I was not doing anything for her, I was not "buying her things", and so on. It got worse from there and I just couldn't figure out why. She wouldn't talk to me, she wouldn't tell our councelor what was really going on in her head, she just kept whittling away at me. The lack of conversation, no matter how many times I attempted it from many different angles, I just couldn't get her to open up. I have to think now it's got to be because of this 'ex' thing. She even said that her parents know "he's around." That's funny - only four years ago, I was being told I was never to ask about him or saying anything under their roof... Now, it's all okay even after what I was told what he originally did, and he's been apparently in the picture far longer than I knew. So to correct my original thread here, I have to say I wasn't shammed...I was betrayed. Would that be a better word to use???
Consider yourself lucky, VERY lucky. It could have been a lot worse. Kids, property, money.
Don't put down your guard just yet. You may have a feeling of relief at the moment but it isn't over til she's out the door. It might be wise to camp out at moms for a couple days. Keep in mom's sight at all times. You may need an alibi. Some may say its being paranoid but this is a very precarious time. Anything is possible. You can rest assured she is being coached. The direction of that coaching could be very much to your detriment.
As tempting as it is to try and figure it all out, your wasting your time. Unless your a shrink you will be spinning your wheels. And for what? By the way it isn't too late for you. At 36 you have a long way to go before being over the hill. Rejoice in the fact your getting out dirt cheap. Go to a bar. Get drunk. Go outside and yell at the top of your lungs, "I hate Ukraine". If you have any old girlfriends go see them.
After that go back and you dictate the terms. What is best for you. Don't leave it up to her. Your being weak again.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: davdah,
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5757 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Originally posted by mikewh328: I don't know if the children issue can be taken as ligit or not. I was sincerely blown away by her reply, even after I attempted to look into what will work for us as a couple. Was there a crime committed on my part because I loved her and asked her to marry me? No, I don't think so. Was there a crime committed because AFTER marriage we talked about children and I just asked if we could have some more time to get better situated? I don't think so, but maybe it was a crime to her...I have no idea. Perhaps it is their way of life there, but I've met a lot of people over there that are young married couples and haven't had children yet - for one reason or another, the most common was they just weren't "ready" yet. So I had assumed that it was similar to us here. I don't consider it fraudulent that she wanted children right away...but it makes me wonder when I've met two other American men who had a child immediately after they married their brides from the same country and they're having similar issues of communication melt-downs. I don't dare ask them since they seem genuinely worried about their child(ren). Can you imagine if I had a child with her, and the present communication with her ex-husband? My God, I couldn't even fathom the thought of my own child being possibly way over there, with HIM and her, and I'd have to apply for a regular Visa just to see my own kid!? I know I wouldn't have to apply for a Visa, but having to travel just to see my own child??? My Mom had said she had heard of women entraping their husbands with children for support. You can't say THAT doesn't happen - I've seen it myself: children being used as bargaining chips when a marriage goes bad.
Update: last night, she asked me to help her copy a CD on her computer (a nice chance to "play" with her ICQ.) When she wasn't looking, I clicked on it and a little window popped open from "him." I said, "oh look...the ex is saying, 'hi my darling, how are you today!' Can we write him back, turn on the webcam and I can give him the finger???" She ran over to her computer and started trying to shut down ICQ. I said, "what's the problem!? I already know you two have been sharing so much for the last few weeks..." Yes, the cat is out of the bag, persay. She stood there, looking at me, and then said, "turn it off." I said, "you know..he gives new meaning to the words Mother F-----." The look on her face was priceless. I said (AT LONG LAST), " you know - I can't live like this with you anymore. I'm so sorry that I've seen this going on and I've seen and watched you literally DESTROY me to your family and your friends while playing the good little girl around me. I've seen you tell horrible lies about me, and when I've asked you questions you'd tell me only what you wanted me to know and nothing else." She said, "so what." I said, "So what!?! Interesting....well how's this for 'so what'...this is over with. I don't care anymore. I don't care what you do or say anymore, and I don't believe anything you say anymore either. You're family has long abandoned me - they all have "blocks" on my e-mail address (I tried to send over jokes and funny photos and they've been coming back as undelieverable - I've seen her able to send and receive stuff...that's how I know this) and they don't want anything to do with me - and this is LONG before your ex ever came into the picture. You want to screw around with him? Please, be my guest....but do it someplace else...cause this marriage is definitely over with." She said, "fine I'll move out Sunday." I said, "oh yeah? where!?! with what money!?! with who???" She said, "why do you care!?" I said, "actually I don't - I'm more curious as to how all of a sudden you can afford to live on your own..." She said, "I'll figure it out." I then said, " while you're figuring it out, decide what you want to do - you can move out, we can stay married on paper for the next nine months until it's time to file for citizenship. You will have to continue to use this address for your mail, driver's license, applications, etc. When stuff comes, I can call you and you can stop over and pick up your stuff. (My mom has her mail coming here too....it's not a big deal) When the time comes, we'll get together and go file - I have no idea how long it takes after that, but at least it wouldn't be another five years until you could file if you are on your own.... OR, you can move out, we go to a lawyer, file for divorce with irreconcible differences, you go your way and I go mine and that's that." She surprised the **** out of me by saying, "it'll take another year after filing...I've already asked." Here I am on here with you all trying to learn about this stuff, and she's already got answers! Hmmm... Perhaps it is another year, perhaps not. She came here on different circumstances then the persons she was asking this too...and oddly enough, she asked one who's actually here illegally. I said, "if you want, I'll try to find out what's the time between filing and actually getting the interview - you came here on a Fiancee Visa...your time frames are quite different than someone who came on a student visa and just decided to hide after her visa was up." She said nothing. I continued by saying, " you decide what will be good for you - I know what's good for me and that's having you out of here. I can't take the lies, the spying, the deceit, the betrayals anymore... I want my F'n life back in order, I want to stop smoking, I want my health back, I want MY SANITY back!" She just looked at me and said, "you know, I never married you to use you..." I just stood there. She then said, "I DID love you." I said, "you denied me your family...you denied me your friends...you denied me you....I DID love you too, but all the denial has killed me. Now, you don't trust me, and I don't trust you. It's all done with. I'm sorry to have to be the first to break all this out, but I can't live like this anymore. You need to make some decisions, tell me what you decide, and let's get this thing over with." There was no response. I think, I only think, that she didn't know I could have the '*****' to confront her, apologize for watching what she's been up too, and tell her basically to make a decision as to how to divorce and get the F out. I told her when I saw that first message I wanted to throw her out then and there. The anger in me was just far too great to think clearly so I didn't do anything but smoke heavily and think myself to calmness. I think what went down last night was far better than throwing her computer AND her out the window. She knows I had a monitoring program on her computer. My mother asked me this evening if I said exactly what I had on there. I told her no, and she said that was good because if it comes around to an all out battle, I can just say I was watching what she did but I never said "how" I did it, nor did I say the name of the program. In the heat of an argument, when the conversation escalated to stronger voices being used, I learned that a friend of mine whom I've helped out of many sticky situations threw a knife in my back. I guess that's to be expected during something like this, yes? I don't know if this will go smoothly or it will be a blood bath. In any case, I honestly just can't live like this anymore. It's totally nuts and insane! To wake up every morning, wondering what kind of stuff will I learn about her today that's going to ruin my day. Will their be another phone call from one of her friends trying to needle information out of me? Will she spend her entire day again on her computer chatting with "him?" Or will she go visit someone and have another "bash Michael" conversation. I got tired of living like this - I had to stop it all and last night was the night. I slept like a baby last night, and today I felt so tired all day long I fell asleep accidentally for four hours! It must have been more stress on me than I had thought. I'm not going to try and watch any more e-mails. I'm not going to try and watch anything anymore - in fact, I'm quite happy her spysweeper erradicated the program. I don't want to know anything else anymore. I just want to have some normalacy back in my life, even if that means I never marry again. I don't know who's responsible for this website, but it's been a very big help for me. I think I got some strengths from here that I could have never developed on my own. It's not like I have a father around to speak too, so I tend to unintentionally rely on others that are unbiased and can give me some sound advice, even if it's what I don't want to hear. I know it's all a part of growing up. ****, you can be 65 and still have a lot to learn! I'm 36 and I've felt like I was being punished from her for reasons I could never understand. When the ex suddenly popped into the picture - putting 2 and 2 together started to make sense, the lack of communication over the past years, the lack of intimacy, the lack of trust from her, it all started to make sense. Maybe my marriage wasn't a sham after all - but some immature excuse on her part to "get back at him" for not allowing her whatever it was she wanted. I think the stories about "him" aren't true and I think it's been all a smoke-screen so that she could enjoy being around somebody totally different and in a different country to try and forget about him. I guess it didn't work, and maybe because I wanted her attention and love SO MUCH, she wasn't prepared for me or anybody else to want so much. Perhaps all along she was just taken aback by all of my attentions on her and it was overwhelming...thus the lack of communcations, the councelors, the church, etc. It still doesn't justify the fact that she tore me apart in all her communications with anyone she knew. You know, all I wanted was to be happy. I wanted the chance of being a part of a new family - her family is huge, and it was happily overwhelming when I first met them all. I thought, "wow, they're all HER family and maybe they can be mine too!!!" I have no father around, no brothers, no sisters. To be a part of such a large group was so amazing to me, I didn't care where they were all from. Here was a wonderful chance to be a part of her life and her family! Then her friends...she had so many of them! I thought again about how they would all be OUR friends. I thought how wonderful it would have been to have a child or two, how they would have such a wonderful opportunity to know they have family here and way over there. It was nicely overwhelming! Then, when she wasn't over there anymore - from the point of Poland to here, her whole demeanor changed. I worked so hard at the beginning of this marriage to make her happy. As I had said before, I made sure I didn't do anything to make her feel unworthy, I was sure of it. For the life of me I could NEVER figure out why she was telling people that I was not treating her right, I was not doing anything for her, I was not "buying her things", and so on. It got worse from there and I just couldn't figure out why. She wouldn't talk to me, she wouldn't tell our councelor what was really going on in her head, she just kept whittling away at me. The lack of conversation, no matter how many times I attempted it from many different angles, I just couldn't get her to open up. I have to think now it's got to be because of this 'ex' thing. She even said that her parents know "he's around." That's funny - only four years ago, I was being told I was never to ask about him or saying anything under their roof... Now, it's all okay even after what I was told what he originally did, and he's been apparently in the picture far longer than I knew. So to correct my original thread here, I have to say I wasn't shammed...I was betrayed. Would that be a better word to use???
I am not sure if you have been betrayed, not quite yet. Betrayal would need to indicate more than a causal relationship toward the iex even if you had erotic messages. Although you question her statement about being abused, you should not make assumptions on her statement. To do so will cause the same effect as the assumption about the children issue.
The two of you have a serious, a very seriuos communication problem. No marriage will survive if that lack of communication continues. That is a guarantee. The two of you also have a lack of trust in the relationship, although understandable from your point of view given your statements. However, the two of you, like many or most inter cultural marriages, have two forces working against you, communication gap and cultural shock. I am not sure who well your wife speaks English, but let me give you an example from my own life. My wife speaks Englsih from a senior high school or freshman college level. Fairly good for someone which English is a second language. But in our first two years of marriage, we too had communication problems. It was with the colloquial terms that she did not understand and placed the strain along with the different cultures between how I interacted and how she interacted. I am an extrovert while she was an introvert as a clear example. But we worked it out along with other issues.
The children issue which she wanted to have children almost immediately and you wanted to wait for a while shows in part that lack of communication, but it also shows, in part, how high her expectations are for the marriage. those high expectations is what may have caused you to feel like you have to prove yourself in the marriage.
finally, what you need to be careful is not to overtly blame anyone or anything. We, as individuals, tend to blame someone, even ourselves, because it places a simple, explanatory reason, in a nice small box that we can easily identify with. However, what happens in most marriages is simply no capability. It is not what you did or what she did in particular that caused the marriage to break down, although the lack of communication definitely helped it end more quickly. But the two of you were never able to resolve your problems in the beginning of your marriage. Your best course of action is just to make an irreconcilable divorce papers drawn up and have her sign it. The no fault divorce will be less painful than a contested divorce as well as less costly, assuming she does not take advantage of the situation.
To reflect on what Davdah says, you are still young. Forget her, let her go, and move on. I would not recommend alcohol and self pity. It is a bad combination. If yo are going to ddrink, do it with style. Go out to a nice dinner, invite some of your friends, and have a party for yourself. have a glass or two of some good wine iwth the meal, but that is it. do not get drunk and make an arse out of yourself. One stuoid mistake, like sleeping with someone out of impulse while still "technically married" could prove more harmful than you realize. It would give her the excuse she may be looking for, if she is that kind of a woman.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Both highly intelligent, thoughtful, and quite precise with your thoughts...I don't know how, but please believe me I'm very grateful to you. Your insights have helped me tremendously get out of my depression and feeling of hopelessness. I was so distraught until I started trying to find some help out there in the grand universe of the internet. God really works in mysterious ways, doesn't he? 
Anyway, I've done this with past relationships...you were right on that one. To give you an idea of something... (I find this to be mentally rewarding like, whatever I did I did it good) - a couple of my past girlfriend's MOTHER'S are customers of mine! They come each and every year to get plants for their homes! Even though the relationship ended, either by me or her, their mother's are still willing to come and support my efforts by buying my flowers? wow! 
