What I meant about the cards face up was if she were willing to admit to you she wants her X back. The lying would stop and you two could end the marriage without the usual fighting and so forth. Not likely but worth a shot.

I doubt there would be any suspicion directed at you for human trafficking since the marriage was as long as it is. Your mother should be congratulated for her for sight since she knows how women think. I agree with Hudson about the wrong assumptions. There wasn't anything clear cut to indicate a scheme was the motive from day one for your marriage. It is the usual first suspicion in situations like this so don't feel guilty about it. However, you still have a wife who wants her X back and that puts you in the way of her desires. I disagree with Hudson on the issue of you wrecking the marriage. She did it by restarting communications with her prior husband. There is no excuse for that, period. Which led to where you are now. No amount of counseling can persuade someone if they don't want to cooperate. You are being used even if not for a green card. She is living in your house with all the benefits under the false pretense of being your wife. The day you had separate bedrooms is the day you should have shown her the door. That or walked out yourself, one or the other.

As for the computer you may have to reinstall windows from scratch which means whiping out everything on the computer. I've seen programs on the net that are supposed to be able to crack the log in password. I've never tried them but it may be worth trying. You also need to keep in mind she knows what your up to. I doubt she would leave anything on there too ****ing. Those things are probably being done somewhere else. A friends computer or even the library for that matter. You probably have about as much evidence as your going to get. So it may not even be worth going after more of the same.

Me, I'm not an attorney. I've been married a few times and have seen most of the tricks. The work I do shows me the darker side of peoples ethics. Every day you stay in the same house your exposing yourself to unnecessary risk. That risk depends on a couple things. One is, her GC. Is it conditional or unconditional? If conditional, 2 yr version, your probably looking at a vawa claim sometime in the future.

To play devils advocate, why are all the papers locked up in another location? Did this occur as a matter of precaution to begin with or after the fact when things went bad?

quote:

Originally posted by mikewh328:
Hudson, one more: I also missed your question about the councelors...
We spoke, together. Then I spoke to the councelor, and then she spoke to the councelor in private. I have no idea what she spoke to the councelor about, but when it was my turn again, my councelor (which she is a woman of 60 years old and comes from that region of the world...) shook her head and told me I'm a great communicator (as you can tell by my lengthy paragraphs here)but she's not, and being one-sided was no good. I tried for the next two years to be a loving, communicatible husband. I did. When I first met her, she was full of joy and happiness and just couldn't wait to marry me. During the interview in Poland and from that time on, I saw a different woman emerge. I chose to ignore it at the beginning thinking it was just her defense of dealing with a dramatic change...but even after four years, she's still the same way. Mr. Hudson....I TRIED. And you're right, I would assume way too much, because she would never give me any reason NOT to assume anything. It's funny - the second I started watching her computer activities, I saw a totally different woman in those vast communications, but she still was the same in front of me.
Am I trying to destroy my marriage? I'm sorry, but there was nothing obviously there from the beginning TO destroy. I think Davdah said it correctly that I was just the next guy in line, "the fall back guy..." I just want to get out of this as peacefully and humanly as possible. I don't want to destroy her life, but she has no right to destroy mine either. She's not considering my feelings and well-being in this at all...but here I am considering everything! Look, final point: I'M ON HERE asking for help and ideas as to how to end this as best as possible....she's upstairs in her room, RIGHT NOW as I type this, chatting "with him" on her ICQ... I can hear the "ut-oh" of ICQ going off.
Who's trying to destroy who now...

Here is my best advice:
Set up an appointment with the counselor for the both of you. At the couselor's office, you are going to state to her, "I know you are not happy with me and I am not happy with you. I have tried to be the husband you want me and I know you have tried to be the wife you wanted. But it is not working out. So, I think it would be best for both of us to get a divorce. What do you thing?" This way, you are not accusing her or saying you checked up on her. In the presence of a neutral third party from her region, and in a calm voic, I think it will go well. She might then confess all her sins, or she could be silent. She is still dealing with her physcial abuse and with her ex. When you file, you file a no fault divorce and nothing else. It will be over in six months.

What I mean about destroying the marriage was this: you checked up on her, not trusting her, thinking she is lying to you all the time, being unfaithfull, etc. When you confront her, you accuse her. From her point of view, doing this just puts salt on a deep, open wound. She will, naturally, be defensive and believing you are acting like the "old ex." How would you feel if she did the same thing? Probably feel the same way as she does. Thus, I don't think you are doing this intentionally, just not acting very wise and not taking into consideration her past and insecurities. That is what I mean. Hope you understand.

By offering the olive branch and wishing her well with the new life, at least she will still feal like someone with dignity. I am assuming this marriage has been very stressfull on her, and on you, for different reasons. Hope this helps.

Hudson, she is guilty of being unfaithful and lying. He caught her red handed. She can't be dealt such a soft hand as if becasue of her past its justified. That is a common BIG mistake men make. Wanting to beleive its not what it is. No excuses, no guilt transference, no skirted liability. Just because she has a soft voice, looks down at her shoes, starts to pout, etc. does not remove the fact she did what she did. Its an act all to many men fall for.

Hudson, I can't do the counceling thing. As Davdah pointed out and as I've said before...I have tried to honestly understand her the first two years - it got to the point that she just wouldn't open up to save my life. She's the kind of woman that will say one thing to you, and while you're walking away there will be a knife in your back. I've seen it over the past year in her e-mails. She'll tell me one thing, thinking it'll keep me at bay, and then I see the total opposite in her e-mails...to her mother, her friends, her family. Common "two facing" as it can be put. Please, believe me - I married her because I fell plum in love with her. When the lies from her started, it slowly began to kill me. I think (Davdah) said it better that I was the fall back guy...I don't really believe this abuse thing, or intimate thing 100%. I think it was just to vent anger that she didn't get her way. Now, four years later, he's writing to her of his undying love for her, and vice versa. You should see the "spicy" ICQ Webshots my spy program caught of my wife.....FLASHING herself to him. Would you like to talk more about HER abuse now? Also, if I go to a councelor and say all those things you mentioned, and it becomes a "no-fault" divorce, what happens to the whole INS issue??? It's definitely not right for me to be supporting her 'backside' while she's here, chatting and making plans with him, while living under my roof. And I certainly can't afford to support her if she goes out on her own. She's presently in college (on a grant), and works as a cashier part time. If I try to be the nice guy that you're suggesting, in front of someone that is neutral, I'm going to get shot in the back. I always do. That's because I'm always the nice guy, trying to do the right thing. I'm so very tired of being hurt.....understand?

Davdah, the reason the papers are locked up somewhere else is because I'm just plain scared.
I don't know what to expect or not to expect. I've NEVER been in this postion before...AND I CERTAINLY never expected marriage (to anyone, I don't care what country) to be like this! MY GOD, I've had to SPY on my OWN WIFE, because she just doesn't talk to me??? What the **** is that!?!?!
I asked my mother to take all my important papers and documents to her house and lock them up somewhere. If I need to see something I'll ask, like the other day when you ( I think it was you or Hudson) asked about the I-751. It was as soon as I saw that first e-mail from her ex did I decide I better start trying to protect myself and that's when the papers got shifted. Even my passport and birth certificate are down there now. Sounds crazy, but again, I don't know anymore what she is capable of. I NEVER SAW this coming, especially of the ex. But - I must say, now it makes better sense why she's always been so quiet, non-talkative, and reserved all the time. Perhaps she was thinking of him.
Hudson, how's this for something to think about: now I'm wondering - every time I "slept" with my wife (which stopped over 1 1/2 years ago) was she thinking about me or him??? She stopped "enjoying" that time together about 2 years ago, if you understand me. I thought I was doing something wrong. Please believe me, I have tried everything.

Hudson, Davdah, and other people that have added in here...Thank you very much.
I've had absolutely no one to talk too.
The friends I thought I shared with her (russian-speaking) have all sided with her, still acting like my friends (I don't say anything, but I've read their comments and such in e-mails to her.) I don't know who to trust, where to go, or what to do.

Thus far, I've spoken to a lawyer that my mother's worked with before. She's quite ready to help me with a divorce, but she has no experience with INS issues. Her best advice was to try to keep the peace until she gets her citizenship and then proceed when all's clear.

From what I've learned from here so far, I really don't have solid, rock-hard evidence of fraud. The only thing I do have is he and her talking about what they WILL do in two years...but for immediate fraud, I don't think I have anything or enough. It will basically boil down to "he said/she said", right? I could try to find an immigrations lawyer I guess, but it sounds like I'll just be waisting my hard-earned money for the same things I've learned here for free.

I can't fathom the idea of having to live like this for almost another year, just because of a support/INS issue. This is totally nuts.

Aren't I frauding the INS since I know she's being technically unfaithful to a certain degree? Isn't that fraud on my part? For all that I know, and also the lack of actually BEING married, isn't there a fraud issue on my part? I can't prove any fraud at the beginning, but what about now!?

Sincerely from my heart..thank you for all the advices so far. I'm starting to feel human again...I think.

You wouldn't be held liable for fraud because there really hasn't been any. In so far as immigration is concerned. If infidelity were prosecutable as fraud most everyone would have done time ,lol. I wouldn't spend too much time dwelling on who she thought of way back when. It won't have any affect on your future. Why bother. All that matters is here and now.

The attorney stumbled across the best answer. It may be wise to bide your time until she has citizenship. Doesn't mean you have to sit and do nothing. If it were me I would move out or ask her to move. If you leave, take your name off all utilities etc. No joint anything.

For the life of me I don't know how you do it. If my girlfriend or wife were flashing some guy on ICQ that computer would accidentally fall out the window along with her clothes and all personal affects. The locks would change themselves. A restraining order would magically be handed to her at work. But,.. thats just me. Sweet face or not, BS is just that and deserves nothing more in return. You could extend an olive branch to someone who had the willingness to be honest. I agree. But to someone who will probably bite the hand holding it. I don't think so. Thats a fools bet.

Mike, don't let Hudson rattle you with his bad advice. He works part time in a women's shelter where the understanding there is men are always at fault in these domestic situations.

Hello max-one...it's okay. I appreciate Hudson, especially being 'devil's advocate.' It does help me to be assured I'm doing all the right things.

Davdah - I love your sense of humor! This is the first time in weeks I laughed and it hurt!

I'd love to throw her out, her computer, or everything - but one big problem: she cannot have ANY different addresses, during the time between Green Card and Citizenship, unless it includes me, as her husband. I was told this by the INS when I called the national 1-800 number asking about "when can I file for my precious beloved wife?" They told me three years from the date of receiving permanent residence/green card, minus 90 days IF she's not been out of the country for more than 6 months TOTAL time between GC and Citizenship. (Okay I read that twice and it made sense to me - if it didn't to you, please let me know and I can try to explain it again.) I learned in all the e-mails I was watching that she had already learned about this time frame before me, and before her alleged "run-in" with her ex.
So anyway, that was the reason why I moved her into my other bedroom...if I have to live like this for almost another year, so that she can keep the same address, I'm not sleeping next to her. I had moved her into the other bedroom while she was visiting with her family in Ukraine. On her way back from Ukraine, and when I saw that first e-mail from him - I'm glad I did that much.
To surive this, I was praying maybe I could do something about this ICQ stuff and get out of this marriage sooner without getting into trouble with the INS. It's funny, I'm the honest one here and I'M WORRIED about getting into trouble. Anyway, I was told that if she has any changes of address, it will lengthen the time in getting her citizenship. I didn't want to drag this on any longer than I had too. Her constant lying BEFORE her trip to Ukraine was the reason I moved her into the other room in the first place - she was practically in there already; she set up a bed so she can watch Russian television stations on her computer in there, I built her a custom desk three years ago just the way she wanted it in there, and she had some clothes in there...recently I just kinda moved the rest of the stuff over there.
Davdah, maybe I can ask you - I was talking to my mother earlier today, and she's read this all here also, do you agree that it would be worth the money to speak to a lawyer who specializes in immigration issues, or do you still think it would be better to just stick it all out??? I'm asking because for some small reason, I'm wondering if somehow I'm in jeopardy because of what I know...not from the beginning but recently...what i have printed out....from the INS? If there's something she knows that i don't know? Do you think it's worth asking or should I just let it go???

Oh I forgot...she can't move out, and I'm definitely not moving out! I've lived in this house since I was 6 years old - that was 30 years ago this October. If anybody goes, she does. Somewhere, I take a stand!

Dang Mike I know allot about this issue. You could do anything and not get in trouble with the INS. Stop worrying. If I was you I would tell them you two were sleeping in seperate rooms and her contact with her previous husband. Then watch how they shrug this off. When you do this you will be assured that thse guys will do nothing in regard to your situation.

It would be a good idea to gather up all the papers and go see an immigration lawyer. More than likley it will be free for the first visit. Better check though. Some lawyers will say free. Later you'll find out its free as long as you retain them. As Max said, there is probably nothing that can be done. But to be sure and cover your bases go and see one. There might be something after all.

I wasn't kidding about tossing everything out the window. If I would have found an e-mail of betrayal the yard sale would have begun. Perfect opportunity too, she was out of the country. I would have canceled her return ticket and disappeared. Any more trips scheduled? It may cause a problem for her citizenship but do you think she is going to let you walk away scott free? Oh no. She will try to pluck you like a chicken. Why make it easy? That is something you should discuss with the attorney. Her rights as a citizen and as they stand now. What if you do this or that. See what your options and risks are.

quote:

Originally posted by mikewh328:
Oh I forgot...she can't move out, and I'm definitely not moving out! I've lived in this house since I was 6 years old - that was 30 years ago this October. If anybody goes, she does. Somewhere, I take a stand!

Want to bet? Once she visits a family law attorney the first thing they will do is get a kick out order against you. If that happens there is something that can be done. Since the house belongs to your mother (aka landlord) she has the right to evict people. If you are paying her anything it can be considered rent. Even without a written agreement a month to month tenancy contract would exist. You can fill in the rest of this episode yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Want to bet? Once she visits a family law attorney the first thing they will do is get a kick out order against you. If that happens there is something that can be done. Since the house belongs to your mother (aka landlord) she has the right to evict people. If you are paying her anything it can be considered rent. Even without a written agreement a month to month tenancy contract would exist. You can fill in the rest of this episode yourself.

How in the hell can she do that when he does not own the property, the wife does not own the property, but his mother does. The mother is in a delicate situation. She can order her out, but that would mean a legal court fight (leasor/leasee tenant rules unless they are living rent free) and drag the mother into the divorce. A big no no. She could force the son out, but that would ruin the mother-son relationship. What he can do is ask one of her friends to take her in. If they are siding with her, then that would be the most appropiate thing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hudson,

quote:

Originally posted by mikewh328:
Oh I forgot...she can't move out, and I'm definitely not moving out! I've lived in this house since I was 6 years old - that was 30 years ago this October. If anybody goes, she does. Somewhere, I take a stand!

Ask one of her friends to take her in and help with the move. If what you say is true that her friends are sticking up for her, they will take her in or find someone who can. You have a choice between what is right and what is easy. Just because you can do something does not mean you should.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hudson,

quote:

Originally posted by mikewh328:
Hudson, I can't do the counceling thing. As Davdah pointed out and as I've said before...I have tried to honestly understand her the first two years - it got to the point that she just wouldn't open up to save my life. She's the kind of woman that will say one thing to you, and while you're walking away there will be a knife in your back. I've seen it over the past year in her e-mails. She'll tell me one thing, thinking it'll keep me at bay, and then I see the total opposite in her e-mails...to her mother, her friends, her family. Common "two facing" as it can be put. Please, believe me - I married her because I fell plum in love with her. When the lies from her started, it slowly began to kill me. I think (Davdah) said it better that I was the fall back guy...I don't really believe this abuse thing, or intimate thing 100%. I think it was just to vent anger that she didn't get her way. Now, four years later, he's writing to her of his undying love for her, and vice versa. You should see the "spicy" ICQ Webshots my spy program caught of my wife.....FLASHING herself to him. Would you like to talk more about HER abuse now? Also, if I go to a councelor and say all those things you mentioned, and it becomes a "no-fault" divorce, what happens to the whole INS issue??? It's definitely not right for me to be supporting her 'backside' while she's here, chatting and making plans with him, while living under my roof. And I certainly can't afford to support her if she goes out on her own. She's presently in college (on a grant), and works as a cashier part time. If I try to be the nice guy that you're suggesting, in front of someone that is neutral, I'm going to get shot in the back. I always do. That's because I'm always the nice guy, trying to do the right thing. I'm so very tired of being hurt.....understand?

I understand you don't want to be hurt anymore, but any divorce attorney will tell you that the divorce goes much smoother and is less expensive when both parties agree to divorce. But if you contest it, it will get nasty, dirty, and your nightmare will just begin. I don't think you want that to happen either and it will not matter to anyone who is right and who is wrong.

There is a reason why she does not talk to you and it is probably not your fault. If she has been abused from her ex, the emotional trauma is unimaginable. There have been cases where the abused has withdrawn from everyone including family. Your wife has not gone that far, but she is withdrawn. Or it could be you, but no evidence to support that conclusion.

But the moment either she stopped trying or you stopped trying to make the marriage work, that is when the marriage ended, emotionally. She may be your wife in name only, but not in a relationship. Her communication with her ex is also most disturbing, psychologically. it is not because she is communicating with him per se, but that he has told her certain things to get her back which may or not be true. You cannot verify these thing via computer and that is why I am disturbed at her. She may need long term counseling to deal with the domestic abuse in order for her to move on. She may be trapped, as as you are. The question is how to escape a situation that is not pleasant with you nor her without escalating it beyond normalcy.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hudson,

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Hudson, she is guilty of being unfaithful and lying. He caught her red handed. She can't be dealt such a soft hand as if becasue of her past its justified. That is a common BIG mistake men make. Wanting to beleive its not what it is. No excuses, no guilt transference, no skirted liability. Just because she has a soft voice, looks down at her shoes, starts to pout, etc. does not remove the fact she did what she did. Its an act all to many men fall for.

Actually, we don't know who initiated the contact first or how long. And the way he went about it and accusing her, whether calmly or not, will put most people on the defensive. Let me explain by using you as the guinea pig. How would you react if your live in girlfriend has started to check up on you. Now, you probably told her certain things of how wonderful she is, etc. But on this board, you have made the appearance that all women are scum. Let us then say she presumed you also meant her as well, not sticking up for her, etc. Whether she approached you calmly or emotionally, it will not matter who is right because she has already assumed certain things about you and what you really are. You will not give her the satisfaction that she might be right, so you will naturally deny. By denying, are you lying? From one point of view, yes. From your point of view, no. So, who is right? And who is wrong?

There is no trust in the relationship. She does not trust him and he does not trust her. It ended when either one of them or both stopped trying to work on the marriage. I am not saying he is at fault, but how he approached certain things has escalated this whole affair. Divorce is inevitable, but how it ends up is at question. He is questioning whether abuse has occurred or not with the ex. He is questioning her every move. Don't you think she is doing the same thing? Of course she is, but to state he should do it and hot her is also a pathetic excuse and hypocrisy.