Recently my Ukrainain wife had decided to take up "past communications" with her ex-husband from Ukraine. She was married before in her home country of Ukraine, but as I had learned, after two years of marriage, it went bad and she decided to divorce him - even going as far as to have her last name changed back to her maiden name. She told me, before we were married, that she divorced him due to physical abuse, he changed his mind about wanting children, and apparently he enjoyed having "intimate relations" with his mother...if you understand me. After four years of bad communcications, marital counceling, church discussions, I think I'm realizing now that she really only married me to either: A - make the ex very jealous and take her back, B - get into this country, start a better life and eventually have him come here once she becomes a citizen, taking everything possible from me and begin a new life with him, with C - the ***-thing may or may not have ever happened...but recent communications between the two of them, over the internet, (and I have very spicy documented proof of the communications going back and forth), have lead me to believe that the past four years of bad communication between the two of us, lack of intimacy between us, and all around a very bad marriage was because I was just being used until the ex straightened himself out. What I need to know is this: she's nine months away from having the opportunity of filing her citizenship papers. Presently we live and sleep in separate bedrooms. NJ does not (anymore) recognize separations...you can file for irreconcible differences (sp?) and be done with a marriage in NJ nicely. My problem is, "I swore to the INS and to my country that this woman was honest, up front, and truthful." She's not being honest and truthful and my marriage has never really been a marriage at all. I have documented proof (printouts of chat conversations, e-mails, phone calls, everything) possibly required to prove without-a-doubt that I have been shammed. I CAN'T AFFORD to support her for the next five years if I divorce her right now. I've been told that if I divorce her now, before her citizenship, that's what I would have to do. Is there any way I can get out of this marital mess, without having to support her, with the proof I have? Does anyone have any knowledge to this situation?
If you already filed the I-751 removal of conditions you have a big problem. Probably the case since she is up for citizenship. Even though your in a no fault state there is usually a provision for filing based on fraud. Most attorneys don't want to bother since they have little or no experience. You'll need to do some hunting to find one.
Speak to an immigration attorney that deals with fraud. They may be able to help but your evidence would have to be overwhelmingly convincing that she used you. Not just the fact she wants her X back. It would have to say 'I used Mike to get a GC so I can bring Oedipus here' or words to that affect. Repeated several times in different formats. Assumptions or suspicions won't be enough. Even then it may be too late. Another option is wait until she gets her citizenship. That gets you off the hook as far as the I-864 goes.
If you do file, better be moved out when you do. If you don't then you will probably be hit with a vawa claim on top of it.
A word to the wise. Any time a women has far fetched stories about their former spouse they are hiding something. The more fictional sounding the story the more bones in the closet. Humping his mother. Thats a good one. (lol). Must have been mythology majors in school.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5757 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
The I-751...I don't remember if I filed that or not, yet. To "explora", all my printouts and photo clips are at my mom's house, well-hidden, along with all my INS documents. So back to "davdah" I'd have to go to mom's house to see if I had filed the I-751 - I'm sorry, I don't remember it. The best way I can prove that my evidence is solid is the fact that: shortly after her first divorce, she had her name changed back to her maiden name. In Ukraine as I have learned, when a woman goes this far, the divorce was REALLY bad. This was told to me by someone here, not my wife. Now, I've got these long printouts of her and her ex proclaiming their love for each other, and the fact that she's going to do her best to wait two more years (for what - I'm not sure...to go back or bring him here) at which time she'll finish college. One particular chat session I have, they were making plans for "in two years." Does that help me some? I understand I need to speak to an immigrations lawyer. I have a regular divorce/family lawyer all ready to go - she advised me to wait until she gets her citizenship. I feel so dirty doing that, like I'm doing something illegal and morally wrong.
mikewh328, Stated you got the evidence recently. Does this include the e-mails are recent as well even though you indicated they are spicy? And who initiated the conversation?
You stated you have had bad communication and a lack of intimacy. You also indicated marriage counseling, church discussion to help resolve issues in the marriage. My question is whether both of you attended, she attended or just you? And if it was both of you attending, what did the counselors say? (I don't want to hear the excuse the counselors were on her side argument).
You also said that she divorced her ex because of physical abuse. That might explain the marital problems and the need for counseling. And it may be detrimental to get immigration fraud if both or just her were going to get the counseling needed. What may have happened is you were the fall back guy. You were the first guy, with no connections to her former life, that she liked. You were the door to escape the horrors of that marriage. It is not exactly being used, but it could explain how quickly you got married, if that was the case.
She may or may not file for citizenship. That is a personal decision too complex to describe on this board. Even my wife has not filed for citizenship even though she is eligible.
As for divorce, irreconcilable differences may be the only way unless you can prove an affair is currently happening between her ex and her. The affair will have to be more than idle communication, but, for the lack of a better term, cyber ***. But be careful, if you file a fault divorce, she will have no choice but to respond in kind. The divorce will be contested if that occurs.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
To Hudson: yes, all my e-mails and chat sessions that i have printed out are all recent - as of 8-18-07. I have to believe you about the "fall back" theory. I think you're right. Perhaps this whole intimacy thing with his mother was a lie...but here's the funny thing: She, her mother AND her father had told me, after I had learned about this alleged intimate thing, that I was not to talk or ask about him ever again under their roof in Ukraine. "Asked, answered, spoken..and dropped" was the case. Now, these e-mails and chat sessions after four years??? Odd, isn't it? She told me she "***ped into him" this past early August while visiting her family in Ukraine and it was just a "Hi...hello...how are you....good....nice to see you...bye" thing. He actually initiated the actual physical evidence (my e-mail printouts.) I've got his e-mails, her e-mails, my e-mail to him asking him why is he writing to my wife, his response of "oh, I don't want to cause any problems, just wanted to say hello again", his next e-mail to her saying, "i will take you back", and so on.
We BOTH attended the marriage counceling. I initiated it because after one year of marriage, our communications were non-existant, and I told her, "we need to either speak to someone neutral that can help us, or we need to get divorced because I can't live my life in silence in my own home." She agreed and went too. The church discussions were also initiated by me. Both the marriage councelor and pastor had said to me, "I don't know what to tell you other than this is NOT a healthy marriage." This was three years ago and two years ago... Presently, I've asked the councelor to give me a list of dates and who was present.
Here's my next item for you and anyone else to help me with: August of last year was when my wife got her own computer, a laptop. Up until that time, she used my computer for her e-mails which was fine...I could see and enjoy communications between her family and her friends as she would allow me to see. As soon as she got her own computer - the e-mails stopped abruptly. I thought that was odd. One night, I got tired of asking her if she's heard anything from "our family" in Ukraine and her always telling me no, when I knew that was not the case. How did it go from many e-mails a week to nothing? Not right. So when she had gone out with some girlfriends, I logged onto her computer to find that she's been on quite a few governmental websites, especially the USCIS website. Somehow she clicked her way into a governmental website to file "green card lottery petitions" for HER ENTIRE FAMILY. This would include: her Mother, her Father, her younger sister, her older sister, her brother.......HER BROTHER'S GIRLFRIEND, and HER BROTHER'S GIRLFRIEND'S mother! She did all this without ever talking to me about it, first of all. Second of all, she did this secretly. I say secretly because I learned that she set up a private e-mail account on a Russian website (like our Yahoo or Gmail), and put the account in her maiden name instead of her married name. From this private e-mail account, she received all names, addresses, birth dates, AND VISA PHOTOS from everyone I mentioned above. When I discovered all this, I confronted her about it (calmly). She proceeded to lie to me, "I'm not doing anything. No, I didn't do that. I don't know what you're talking about." I finally turned on her computer myself and showed her what I already know. She then said, "I was just trying to see if I can help them come here." I asked her, "why didn't you talk to me about this?" She said, "because I wanted to do something on my own." Nice, right? Well, her next e-mail from that private e-mail account was something like, "I don't know how Michael found out about this e-mail address...maybe I'll just open up another one somewhere else!" and she then put, "LOL!" Later on, I asked her, "what if they won green cards...where were they going to stay if they came here!?" She never answered me. I have ALL e-mails concerning THIS manner all printed out (hidden at my mom's house) as well. Can this situation be brought to light, along with the whole ex-husband thing? You see now why I feel like I've been completely used. And it's not an every day thing. Some days may be nice, until I feel she's up to something. I try to brush it off as, "she's just in one of her moods." When I look into what she's up too (which IS TOTALLY FREAKIN' NUTS! Why should I have to look into what my own wife is up too) it always winds up being something major. With this "green card lottery" thing...is this something major??? Final point: apparently no one won a green card since no one has shown up on my front doorstep saying, "hey, guess what - I'm here!"
Apparently this website deleted a harmless word of mine. I probably should have said, "she ran into him." I used a word that would describe a special car at an amusement park...Sorry peoples.
WOW.....damm! She has her green card already, I think it's too late, if you're hoping to get her deported. I think you know whats coming, you just don't want to admit it to yourself. I suggest you keep your "docs" and get divorced asap...it's coming anyway, and the more you delay, the worse it's going to get. The thought of divorce and getting over her, and starting over probably freaks you out...but..it's coming whether you like it or not. Get a divorce, it's coming and you are delaying it.
Just for the records, You can only proof fraud on her part,if u actually have e mails,letters etc saying stuff like " finally the 3 year or 4 year marriage is behind me,so I can fianlly divorce him and marry you,as a citizen or greencard holder"
Oh I miss you now for many years,can't wait to be back with you etc etc
Stuff like that is proof...
But if she started to talk to someone basically and just went out to cheat on you and started an affair or what not. It is and willl not be considered as fraud.., because she has the right to cheat on you and date other and leave you... Its just sick,that those people from that country do that so often,and no one realize it. And they always get back to their own native men,always!!!
I know how you feel my friend. My wife of 20 years married me for a green card and used me too. I called immigration and they said there was nothing I could do. So I had to kill her. God bless you.
From what you wrote about her trolling of the USCIS sites she is just beginning to learn about the process. The lottery is pretty much what it sounds like. She may have visions of bringing the entire family here but it is not likely. She'll find that out soon enough.
Your big problem is you need absolute proof that you were being used. If I were the judge I would assume she just wants her X back based on what you wrote. There would need to be more than just Ukrain customs of name change etc. to substantiate anything. Again, it would have to clearly state 'I married him for the green card only' Or 'I married him so I could bring my husband here' It would have to be that specific and probably even state your name in the process. Any good attorney could have what gave dismissed. It needs to be absolutely conclusive. No assumptions or connecting the dots. That won't fly. If there is anything in there that says she did love you then the show is over, you lose.
This sounds like a case of buyers remorse. She wants her old husband back. You may want to confront her with the truth now or wait til her citizenship goes through. Do it now and you risk the on going support issue. If she has an unconditional 10yr GC then you did file the I-751 already. Not that it matters that much. If she is eager to get citizenship it is probably because she knows its easier to bring someone here as a citizen than a LPR. Which may be good for you. If she pushes for it then it will relieve you of the I-864 financial burden.
It would be wise to discuss this with both immigration & family law lawyers. Before you do make sure you have accumulated a lot of evidence. One thing you can do since you have already tipped her off is install a keystroke tracking program on her computer. That will tell you everything. In the end I fear you won't be able to have her deported simply becasue it isn't the scam you think it is. You married a flaky girl who changed her mind.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5757 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
To darkforce: you're kidding right? To Davdah - thank you again. Tonight - I checked over ALL my documents and what I HAVE filed over the past four years...you know something? I NEVER filed that I-751 you had mentioned. I'm absolutely sure of it! And it's funny you should mention the keystroke thingy....that's how I got all her e-mails and chat sessions. I put that onto her computer after she had gotten her own computer and the e-mails just 'suddenly' stopped coming. I knew something was up and that's when I learned about the green card lottery venture. But unfortunately as of three days ago, her spysweeper program upgraded itself, detected my spy program and erradicated it. Now, she put password protection onto her computer from StartUp and I can't even get on there to try something else. I completely understand you all about "not having enough evidence." I think you're right that I might have to play this out until she(actually me) can file for her citizenship, unless you can tell me since I didn't do the I-751 I might have a chance of getting out of this without losing anything? By the way, I don't want to gain anything either, other than my life and getting out from under this Russian veil. I'm really grateful for this website - you've all honestly saved my life. I was feeling like I was losing all hope and was getting way too depressed, if you understand. As my mother would say, "I'm too honest sometimes..." but you know it's my head that has to sleep at night and I enjoy sleeping with a clean conscious. How do "these people" from these countries sleep....I'd really like to know!? No, scratch that - I don't care. I just want my life to be safe and my home to feel like my home again. I'm so tired of being in pain. Please, Davdah, since I haven't filed that I-751...does it make a difference in my situation? And quickly: no, none of the e-mails, keystrokes, chat sessions indicate DIRECTLY intent to sham me. At least not up until my program was erradicated.
The I-751 is normally sent in when a person is getting the 10 yr GC. There are some exceptions perhaps yours is one of them. In any event since you have no hard evidence there is no sense trying the fraud route. All you'll get is a lot of legal fees and no results.
There are a couple things you can do. Erase the computer and start over. That would continue the chess game your playing. Or you can confront her with everything and point blank ask her if she wants her X back. You already know the answer.
If you want to get back to normal quickly. It would be best to have everyone playing with the cards all face up. Try to make the end as painless as possible. If she admits it and is willing to leave without hurting you anymore then go that way. But with caution. Don't allow yourself to be placed in a position of risk.
If she continues the truth dodging then your only course of action should be protective. You will have to act quickly based on her response. Once she knows you are aware of everything she will be looking for ways to protect her interests. Everything from living arrangements to your paycheck.
If things look like they may take a turn for the worse, fraudulant police reports etc. It may be wise to abandon the ranch to a safer location. If the house is yours (you own it) then you may want to make a preemptive strike. Have her removed when you file the divorce. It is common to file a removal order in tandem with the divorce filing.
At the moment you have the element of surprise on your side. Use it wisely. Think with your head not your heart. That is under her high heel.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5757 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Davdah, thank you again. It won't pay to confront her with anything. I did that with that 'green card lottery' episode last August, and until I physically showed her on her computer what she was up too, she just kept denying it and lying about it. It would be better to keep it all to myself until said time. My Mom asked me last night, more or less, "if I can behave during this time" like keeping away from her. You know, after all this deceit, lies, betrayals...how can you possibly think about that stuff!? Please trust me, I'm thinking with my head, and not the little one either. I made a big learning mistake here, I don't need another one in nine months. I wrote to the company that I bought 'that program' from. They in turn told me by month's end they will have a better fix for that spysweeper problem and more features to keep it hidden. I think I'll wait until then, and if this seems logical enough: I can turn on her computer and as soon as it powers up, I can go into her BIOS and reset the Hard Drive's password, allowing me access to re-install the program. Then I can erase her password and if she sees when she turns on her computer and no password screen comes up, "gee, the computer must have reset itself." To abandon the ranch, my mother lives 1/4 mile up the street - I can sack out there if need be. Fortunately the house and property are in my mother's name...pre-marriage. She can't touch those things, if that's what she's planning on doing. But if things went really bad, I already know to just GO. Someone earlier wrote about VAWA...I looked it up and I don't need that. I also heard of Russian women banging their heads into walls and such, turning to police and saying, "look what he did to me..." I don't need that either... You know, the hardest part is being under the same roof with her for the next nine to ten months. We're in separate bedrooms, but we still have to pass each other. It makes my stomach turn each morning when she walks by and says "good morning." I so much want to turn around and say, "you don't mean that." But I keep my mouth shut. Davdah, are you a lawyer? And can I also ask, what did you mean by, " It would be best to have everyone playing with the cards all face up." Are you saying I should let others know what's going on? Sorry if I missed you on this one.
Originally posted by mikewh328: To Hudson: yes, all my e-mails and chat sessions that i have printed out are all recent - as of 8-18-07. I have to believe you about the "fall back" theory. I think you're right. Perhaps this whole intimacy thing with his mother was a lie...but here's the funny thing: She, her mother AND her father had told me, after I had learned about this alleged intimate thing, that I was not to talk or ask about him ever again under their roof in Ukraine. "Asked, answered, spoken..and dropped" was the case. Now, these e-mails and chat sessions after four years??? Odd, isn't it? She told me she "***ped into him" this past early August while visiting her family in Ukraine and it was just a "Hi...hello...how are you....good....nice to see you...bye" thing. He actually initiated the actual physical evidence (my e-mail printouts.) I've got his e-mails, her e-mails, my e-mail to him asking him why is he writing to my wife, his response of "oh, I don't want to cause any problems, just wanted to say hello again", his next e-mail to her saying, "i will take you back", and so on.
We BOTH attended the marriage counceling. I initiated it because after one year of marriage, our communications were non-existant, and I told her, "we need to either speak to someone neutral that can help us, or we need to get divorced because I can't live my life in silence in my own home." She agreed and went too. The church discussions were also initiated by me. Both the marriage councelor and pastor had said to me, "I don't know what to tell you other than this is NOT a healthy marriage." This was three years ago and two years ago... Presently, I've asked the councelor to give me a list of dates and who was present.
Here's my next item for you and anyone else to help me with: August of last year was when my wife got her own computer, a laptop. Up until that time, she used my computer for her e-mails which was fine...I could see and enjoy communications between her family and her friends as she would allow me to see. As soon as she got her own computer - the e-mails stopped abruptly. I thought that was odd. One night, I got tired of asking her if she's heard anything from "our family" in Ukraine and her always telling me no, when I knew that was not the case. How did it go from many e-mails a week to nothing? Not right. So when she had gone out with some girlfriends, I logged onto her computer to find that she's been on quite a few governmental websites, especially the USCIS website. Somehow she clicked her way into a governmental website to file "green card lottery petitions" for HER ENTIRE FAMILY. This would include: her Mother, her Father, her younger sister, her older sister, her brother.......HER BROTHER'S GIRLFRIEND, and HER BROTHER'S GIRLFRIEND'S mother! She did all this without ever talking to me about it, first of all. Second of all, she did this secretly. I say secretly because I learned that she set up a private e-mail account on a Russian website (like our Yahoo or Gmail), and put the account in her maiden name instead of her married name. From this private e-mail account, she received all names, addresses, birth dates, AND VISA PHOTOS from everyone I mentioned above. When I discovered all this, I confronted her about it (calmly). She proceeded to lie to me, "I'm not doing anything. No, I didn't do that. I don't know what you're talking about." I finally turned on her computer myself and showed her what I already know. She then said, "I was just trying to see if I can help them come here." I asked her, "why didn't you talk to me about this?" She said, "because I wanted to do something on my own." Nice, right? Well, her next e-mail from that private e-mail account was something like, "I don't know how Michael found out about this e-mail address...maybe I'll just open up another one somewhere else!" and she then put, "LOL!" Later on, I asked her, "what if they won green cards...where were they going to stay if they came here!?" She never answered me. I have ALL e-mails concerning THIS manner all printed out (hidden at my mom's house) as well. Can this situation be brought to light, along with the whole ex-husband thing? You see now why I feel like I've been completely used. And it's not an every day thing. Some days may be nice, until I feel she's up to something. I try to brush it off as, "she's just in one of her moods." When I look into what she's up too (which IS TOTALLY FREAKIN' NUTS! Why should I have to look into what my own wife is up too) it always winds up being something major. With this "green card lottery" thing...is this something major??? Final point: apparently no one won a green card since no one has shown up on my front doorstep saying, "hey, guess what - I'm here!"
It is not surprising how she reacted, no because of what you think she is doing, but because I see the lack of trust and communication in the marriage. You are assuming WWWAAAAYYYYYY TTTTOOOOO MJMMMUUUUUCCCCCHHHHHH.
She gets her own computer and starts checking out government sites. This could indicate that she is checking up on you since she does not trust you. And you do not trust her. You probably have not trusted her for a long time. For the lottery green card, each individual petitions for themselves. It is not based on a sponsorship of someone. She may have found the green card lottery because either her family asked or she was just curious. She may be curious that all the things you are telling her or not telling her are actually in the law. So, here is the kicker for you. What you are doing now, spying on her, controlling her (attempting), not trusting her, etc is exactly what her ex husband did to her. The only difference is that you have not physically beaten her, yet. So, what does this tell her? Might tell her that she married her ex, that means you. But now her ex has gotten his life completely around while you are stubborn as a mule.
I understand why you are upset that she did not tell you, but given the lack of communication and trust, can you blame her? The approach was totally wrong, you should have used better judgment and not be so judgmental when making accusations, even calmly. But I don't see how you are being used. What I do see is a marriage in total shambles and you are doing everything humanly possible to destroy that marriage.
I don't know much about Ukrainian culture, but my guess is that her family want to keep the ex in the past by not talking about him. This is not indicative of their cultrue, but I believe that to be the case.
And I am still curious what the marriage counselors have said to both of you on what the two of you need to work on.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
Originally posted by mikewh328: To darkforce: you're kidding right? To Davdah - thank you again. Tonight - I checked over ALL my documents and what I HAVE filed over the past four years...you know something? I NEVER filed that I-751 you had mentioned. I'm absolutely sure of it! And it's funny you should mention the keystroke thingy....that's how I got all her e-mails and chat sessions. I put that onto her computer after she had gotten her own computer and the e-mails just 'suddenly' stopped coming. I knew something was up and that's when I learned about the green card lottery venture. But unfortunately as of three days ago, her spysweeper program upgraded itself, detected my spy program and erradicated it. Now, she put password protection onto her computer from StartUp and I can't even get on there to try something else. I completely understand you all about "not having enough evidence." I think you're right that I might have to play this out until she(actually me) can file for her citizenship, unless you can tell me since I didn't do the I-751 I might have a chance of getting out of this without losing anything? By the way, I don't want to gain anything either, other than my life and getting out from under this Russian veil. I'm really grateful for this website - you've all honestly saved my life. I was feeling like I was losing all hope and was getting way too depressed, if you understand. As my mother would say, "I'm too honest sometimes..." but you know it's my head that has to sleep at night and I enjoy sleeping with a clean conscious. How do "these people" from these countries sleep....I'd really like to know!? No, scratch that - I don't care. I just want my life to be safe and my home to feel like my home again. I'm so tired of being in pain. Please, Davdah, since I haven't filed that I-751...does it make a difference in my situation? And quickly: no, none of the e-mails, keystrokes, chat sessions indicate DIRECTLY intent to sham me. At least not up until my program was erradicated.
With the I-751, it depends on how she came into the country. If she had a conditional green card, then it will make her deportable it it has been beyond her 2 year conditional residence date, but it also put you in criminal risk as well. USC, if sponsoring someone either by employment or marriage, fail to provide the proper documentation, could face human trafficking allegations if it was knowingly or intentionally. But I don't think that is the case here. So, what paperwork do you have for her immigration?
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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