Originally posted by MajKarma: BUY LOVE? In this case if I was rich this woman would still be with me. What Planet are you on?
None of this was about money. I truly loved the woman and spent every day with her and on her in every effort to be a good husband and build a life with her. Buy Love? I certainly did without so that she could have, but I never tried or expected to Buy Her Love.
The fact is, she wants a rich husband, and I was just her best means to staying here until she got her Perm Green Card and now she is living with her co-conspirator in Laguna Beach living off her GFs husband while she/they are out trolling for her next victim.
Boca is obviously a woman, another one of these selfish, self serving, aspiring Orange County Housewife types. It is so evil and sick. Many of us American men have sought foreign women for wives because American women are so very messed up, but given a little time, even the best woman turns into one of you monsters.
This subject has gone beyond my personal problems, which I am going to let the court decide because now I am determined to file for an annulment for marriage fraud. I will depend on the facts and the court to tell me what is right and wrong. She lied to me and Immigration at every interview. She was either lying to me and Immigration about our marriage being wonderful a month before she drugged me or will lie to justify what she did once she got her Perm Green Card. She has bankrupted me and left me feeling like a used car she dumped fater using me to take her through the immigration process. One thing is for sure, everything is going to come out...every detail and if I get the annulment, I am going to sue her and all those involved. It is unfortunate that none of her girlfriends have any money of their own and it is their American Husbands that will pay for the sever pain and suffering I have been put through.
Don't speak to me about "Buying Love", I poured myself out for that woman way beyond money. She had $50 to her name and a few clothes when I met her. 3.3 years later, she has learned english, got her real estate license, learned to drive, got the car she wanted, got her son here, many things and I did everything I could to love and care for her and her son. This woman is a User, but then, many women are.
Apparently, in marriage it is okay to lie, steal, cheat and betray the one you supposedly love, but if a stranger had done this, they would be in jail. So, don't you tell me about Buying Love!! I would never have gone through this process and made all the sacrafices I made if I had ever known what she was planning.. I did it because she said she loved me and wanted to make a life with me. You women can apparently sleep with, have *** with and go through all the motions of being loving wives, while you wait and scheme and conspire to murder your mates...and the courts help you do it!
Bitter? Angry? You bet!!! And I will tell you another thing, I am going to make this the beginning of my life's mission and help other men who are the victims of such horrible women.
But first, I am going to have to see if there is still justice in this country and hear what the court thinks after they have seen and heard all the facts. If I am guilty of something(s), I expect to be punished, but to my knowledge, not being rich is not yet a crime.
It also bothers me that there are plenty of men out there that will buy love and a good looking woman has lots of choices for whom they will use next.
Don't come back with any kind of comment about my buying love.. I loved, nurtured and pampered that woman and her son. I was a good husband, but she want to live at the beach and party... I am hearing about it from many sources. She lost no time and is already sleeping with another man...and her 15 y.o. son was made part of it all...a co conspirator. His my space says "Pimping Now"... God Help Us if this country embraces this kind of behavior.
Hurt myself? I could not be more hurt.
Maj, To be brutally honest, I do not think this will qualify for annulment, particularily if you live in California since it has a no fault divorce. Second, unless you have direct, written evidence that there was any fraud or misrepresentation involved on her part, then annulment may be out of reach, legally.
Also to be honest, I did see some warning signs from both her and you. From her, she was communicating through a friend and coming here on a visitor visa. Did it ever occur to you how she was able to come to this country. Did a friend pay for her or did she? You knew absolutely nothing about this person in the short time before the both of you were living with each other. Now, you had a couple of dates, told her almost immideately you loved her. She replied the same, and both of you moved in with each other within the same month and the rest is history. To be frank, I do not see anything that would indicate annulment unless she was still married or she or her friend admit in court that they duped you. My guess is she is filing for divorce for irreconcilable differences.
You are hurt and angry and that is perfectly normal, Maj. However, after reading your posts and replies, I do think you need counseling. You acted foolishly when you met Oksana from the get go and I think that has to be addressed. And not knowing her side of the story of why she filed for divorce, I will withold any pre-conceived notions on whose fault it is. Wish the best of luck to you and your situation, but I do think you partially, at least, dug the hole.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
First of all, lets look at the definition of the word "betrayal". To betray means betray |biˈtrÄ| verb [] be disloyal to; be disloyal to (one's country, organization, or ideology) by acting in the interests of an enemy ; treacherously inform an enemy of the existence or location of (a person or organization); treacherously reveal (secrets or information); figurative reveal the presence of; be evidence of.
So, how that word you use to measure the failed marriage you were not the part is related to law and constitution?
Bottom line, when you look for accusation, you have to carefully choose the wording, not to let your client be slammed and dunked. Unless, you stick to cold-blooded facts, you won't have a chance to stand in trial.
MJ, I am out of my patience, visitng this thread. I would chanrge you either the fee of the therapist or the lawyer to listem to your crying. SNAP OUT OF IT. At your age you should be better than that. And yes, alot of abused women (AND FAKES who I kick out of the door right away) seek the information from me. That's why I am exposed to both sides of the story.
Now, 1. You are 52. She is... in her what, 30's? 2. You live in Riverside. She wants to live near the Ocean. 3. Her son does NOT like you anymore, neither does she. 4. Bitterness is NOT better than tears. Get a bottle of boose and cry your heart out over it. You'll wake up in the morning and figure out what hurts more - hangover or being dumped. 5. I know too many of the bitter ex-husbands in their 50's who couldn't find anyone here, in US to fill the empty space in their life. Most of them have 8-5 jobs, rent apartments, have no retirement savings, and pay child/spouse support to their last family. 6. They go to Russia (or?) to get "real" (meaning submissive) women who would be with them no matter what and who they are. They forget that these women are different from the "real" ones, who don't need to look for the husband abroad - there are plenty of guys like you living from pay check to another one back at home!
What that means is - you marry the opportunitist by measuring up how much it would cost you to have a wife and invest maybe a couple of K's into her, instead of hitting the hookers or having blue b*** for the rest of your wife. Not difficult to do the math - it's cheaper to marry. Just break down the days you spent feeling that you are a worthy man coming home to a young, beautiful wife and calculate how much that would be against going on dates at least once a month within the same period of time?
Again, marrying - bartering is a cheaper option. That's why it is so popular... :-)
Yes, I can't stand either side. I've met hundreds of those "couples" and I can make a fortune if I have a chance of making bets on what happens to majority of them.
K, I am out of here ~
QT, sorry but you've lost me! It seems clear to me that we have only one side of the story as I stated before, but for you to make sweeping generalisations based upon scant information is improper. And to conclude that you are intimately aware of MajKarma's motivation in marrying his wife, or to assume that you know the motivation of MajKarma's wife in agreeing to marry him is ridiculous.
What is clear is that MajKarma has been hurt, quite possibly misled and is seeking assistance. Yes, he's in a state of shock. Who wouldn't be? While his choice of words may appear to be somehwat exaggerated, I view it as his attempt to be emphatic as to his commitment to the long-term nature of the union he made with his foreign bride and her son and that shock can be at the root of declaring the impact this is having or has had upon him. Betrayal has an overwhelming impact on the victim. Betrayal of the kind that MajKarma suspects of his wife is the worst imaginable. In time, this will pass. How do I know? Let's say I have been there myself; betrayed by my alien spouse and used for the purposes of gaining a green card.
What is important is that MajKarma simply believes he has a right to annul the marriage on the basis of his belief that it was not entered into for the reasons represented by his wife. He might not be successful for any number of reasons, but that is up to the judge in his district court, and certainly not for us to decide.
The above is simply an opinion. Your mileage may vary. For immigration issues, please consult an immigration attorney.
Posts: 1175 | Location: ..the natural world | Registered: 06-13-2005
First, I want to thank everyone for their interest, thoughts and comments, which I have weighed and carried with me through what I can only discribe as a "twightlight zone" of a Christmas for me.
I have a lot of respect for a number of you, whose are obviously very clear thinkers and have not lost sight of what is "Right and Wrong". Ironically, I even appreciate "The Tramp"..she knows who she is, as she clearly spoke from the perspective of many women, who in the pursuit of their happiness can do basically anything, coming and going. "It" made comment about the word and definition of "Betrayal"...again I am glad I don't need to explain or clarify my very appropriate use of that word.
As for the law in California regarding "Annulment", here is a brief of that law: Fraud: Either party's consent to the marriage or domestic partnership was obtained by "fraud," unless the defrauded party thereafter, and with full knowledge of the facts constituting the fraud, "freely cohabited with the other" as husband and wife. [Ca Fam § 2210(d)]
The type of "fraud" sufficient to support a judgment of nullity must go to the very essence of the marital [or domestic partnership] relation. Thus, fraud or deceit sufficient to avoid an ordinary contract will not necessarily warrant a judgment of nullity. The alleged misrepresentation or concealment must have been "vital to the relationship," directly affecting the purpose of the deceived party in consenting to the marriage/domestic partnership.
The following are some examples of the kinds of fraud which would warrant a nullity judgment:
o A judgment of nullity based on fraud is also warranted where one party's motive in entering the marriage was solely to obtain a green card (to acquire U.S. residency status) and he or she never intended to engage in sexual relations with the other or to meet marital duties.
From my perspective:
1) I have no doubt that my wife's girlfriend Sveta set out to find a husband for Aksana and that I came to be the best of her choices as her Tourist Visa ran out. 2) That they both knew what they were doing and played me both ways against the middle...either the marriage worked or it didn't, but whatever the case, Aksana would use me to get her and her son here, and whatever else they could get through the process. 3) Yes, she slept with me and the *** was great both ways, but she lied about wanting us to have a child and lied to me throughout the Immigration Process about loving me and being committed to the marriage. Her leaving me a month after the INS Interview removing conditions to her Green Card, all the details of how she left me, her refusal to talk to me, go to counseling, talk to our Priest about it and behavior categorically proves she neither loved or cared about me, as a husband or as human being for that matter.
I will be amending my Response to Annulment of the marrriage in the next few days, as I intend that all the facts of the relationship and marriage be brought out and be placed as a test before the court of their sense of "Right and Wrong". If our courts will condone this kind of behavior; if marriage vows, the work and responsibilties a "Sponsor" takes on in the process mean so little, then it needs to be clearly said by a court, a judge.
Don't be mistaken, I know the outcome, as morality and justice are basically a farce in these days and times...each of you can find plenty of examples of this, so I am not going to labor my conviction.
For me, I just want what happened to be dragged out into the light of day...what I did, what she did and how the court views it.
Vendictive? No, I am not being vendictive; I am trying not to be a victim...to stand up for myself, but almost as important, is my need to stand up for what is right and wrong, that people should not be able to use people like this; that such has gotten out of hand and that in the case of Green Card Marriages and the extra special efforts we Sponsors have to go through, warrant special efforts to making the marriage work.
For those of you who are confused by the details, focus on this alone: She lied to me and Immigration at our last interview. She was out the door a month later. Is that Fraud or not? Is that Purjury or Not? Is that a Felony or not? She and those like her "Spit" in my face, our laws and all those who they play for fools. It is time that someone stands up against such and I am going to be one of them.
You are hurt and angry and that is perfectly normal, Maj. However, after reading your posts and replies, I do think you need counseling. You acted foolishly when you met Oksana from the get go and I think that has to be addressed. And not knowing her side of the story of why she filed for divorce, I will withold any pre-conceived notions on whose fault it is. Wish the best of luck to you and your situation, but I do think you partially, at least, dug the hole.
Has anyone overlooked the fact that Svetana, Oxana or whatever her name is DRUGGED him so she could abandon him? That right there, in and of itself has NO justification whatsoever for however it was he could've treated her while they cohabitated.
First, I want to thank everyone for their interest, thoughts and comments, which I have weighed and carried with me through what I can only discribe as a "twightlight zone" of a Christmas for me.
I have a lot of respect for a number of you, whose are obviously very clear thinkers and have not lost sight of what is "Right and Wrong". Ironically, I even appreciate "The Tramp"..she knows who she is, as she clearly spoke from the perspective of many women, who in the pursuit of their happiness can do basically anything, coming and going. "It" made comment about the word and definition of "Betrayal"...again I am glad I don't need to explain or clarify my very appropriate use of that word.
As for the law in California regarding "Annulment", here is a brief of that law: Fraud: Either party's consent to the marriage or domestic partnership was obtained by "fraud," unless the defrauded party thereafter, and with full knowledge of the facts constituting the fraud, "freely cohabited with the other" as husband and wife. [Ca Fam § 2210(d)]
The type of "fraud" sufficient to support a judgment of nullity must go to the very essence of the marital [or domestic partnership] relation. Thus, fraud or deceit sufficient to avoid an ordinary contract will not necessarily warrant a judgment of nullity. The alleged misrepresentation or concealment must have been "vital to the relationship," directly affecting the purpose of the deceived party in consenting to the marriage/domestic partnership.
The following are some examples of the kinds of fraud which would warrant a nullity judgment:
o A judgment of nullity based on fraud is also warranted where one party's motive in entering the marriage was solely to obtain a green card (to acquire U.S. residency status) and he or she never intended to engage in sexual relations with the other or to meet marital duties.
You gave the technical definition, but have you considered how you are going to prove this. Just taking your word ALONE will be inefficient. All her attorney has to do is explain the reasonableness of her leaving, why she cannot live with you anymore, and that her expectations have now been changed because of the marriage. Now, considering the two of you lived with each other for over three years, one can reasonable assume that the two of you had intimate relationship. If you did, then the annulment based on green card will ne null and void.
quote:
From my perspective:
1) I have no doubt that my wife's girlfriend Sveta set out to find a husband for Aksana and that I came to be the best of her choices as her Tourist Visa ran out. 2) That they both knew what they were doing and played me both ways against the middle...either the marriage worked or it didn't, but whatever the case, Aksana would use me to get her and her son here, and whatever else they could get through the process. 3) Yes, she slept with me and the *** was great both ways, but she lied about wanting us to have a child and lied to me throughout the Immigration Process about loving me and being committed to the marriage. Her leaving me a month after the INS Interview removing conditions to her Green Card, all the details of how she left me, her refusal to talk to me, go to counseling, talk to our Priest about it and behavior categorically proves she neither loved or cared about me, as a husband or as human being for that matter.
The most important question you need to ask yourself is how you are going to prove this. I understand, from your perspective, this is the case. But to be feank, family law judges almost always side on caution when granting annulment if no direct evidence is presented. A he said/she said, no pun intended, will not suffice. I would strongly you get legal representation if you want to attempt annulment. The only way I see a chance is attacking Sveta and her relationship with your estranged spouse, but that also comes with risk, that is to say, it will guarantee your outcome.
quote:
For those of you who are confused by the details, focus on this alone: She lied to me and Immigration at our last interview. She was out the door a month later. Is that Fraud or not? Is that Purjury or Not? Is that a Felony or not? She and those like her "Spit" in my face, our laws and all those who they play for fools. It is time that someone stands up against such and I am going to be one of them.
Thanks again for all your help.
She does have some explaining to do about the timing of when she left; however, it does not necessarily constitute fraud. It will not be perjury because she never gave anything under oath under the jurisdiction you are now seeking. and that at the time, it was bssed on intent. Again, intent is very hard to prove if no direct written evidence can be presented.
Wish you the best of luck to you.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
You are hurt and angry and that is perfectly normal, Maj. However, after reading your posts and replies, I do think you need counseling. You acted foolishly when you met Oksana from the get go and I think that has to be addressed. And not knowing her side of the story of why she filed for divorce, I will withold any pre-conceived notions on whose fault it is. Wish the best of luck to you and your situation, but I do think you partially, at least, dug the hole.
Has anyone overlooked the fact that Svetana, Oxana or whatever her name is DRUGGED him so she could abandon him? That right there, in and of itself has NO justification whatsoever for however it was he could've treated her while they cohabitated.
Sort of like in that movie "Hostel."
Well, Maj did have a tooth ache and has taken some pain medicine to help alleviate the the tooth ache. Plus, he had a bad day at work. Given those two factors and the fact that she gave him to help him sleep does not prove intent on any nature unless she foolishly states that she did so when the trial comes up. But I do not think that will happen.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
It's ironic that I live in a country where so few have lost sight of what is right and wrong.
It does not matter if the court or some judge who by all accounts is and has been a part of the morality or lack thereof we are all faced with day after day in this generation.
What matters is that by my filing for an Annulment is based upon the truth, that she came here looking for a husband to get her green card, used me and dumped me when she got it and all she could get.
All any person can do is stand up and speak the truth to the best of their ability for anyone interested to hear, even if it is just God.
OJ got away with Murder, M Jackson got away with sexually abusing a child...we have murdered thousands of innocent women and children in Iraq.. the list is long to prove that there is no real justice in this country.
I have no doubt her and her friends will get away with this, that some man will pick her up gladly and carry her on to the next phase in her plan. They will laugh and be happy. I have no doubt there is no justice...there are plenty of wealthy bad people, plenty of immoral *****s we put on pedestals, plenty of lawyers and elected officials that are successful liars, cheats and thieves to prove that "Justice" has nothing to do with anything.
All anyone can do is stand up for themselves and what they believe to be the truth. For my part, my filing for annulment is based upon the truth "That she married me for her green card and never had any intention of making the marriage work"..that she used me and dumped me. If I allow her to have a simple divorce none of the details of what happened and was done will come out. I am sure she will have plenty to say to justify what she did...she wasn't happy is enough, as marriage and marriage vows mean nothing, as obviously our relationship and all we went through together means nothing to her.
However, I will come away having spoken up for myself and will not have to live out my life knowing I said and did nothing, and subsequently condoned with my silence what she and her friends did.
You can all swim in your own sewer of lies and deciet, turn your heads to wrongs and evils, and find your own peace with God, if you beleive in God, but I for one am not going to be a silent victim of such betrayal.
I don't expect many to get what I am saying. Many of you have betrayed those you once said you would love and cherish forever...many of you lie all the time...steal from those who have put trust in you...stood by quiet while wrong was being done by another...none of us are without sin..no doubt, including me, but I have done my best to not be one of you..I was good husband, loved my wife more every day and did my best to be good to her and the boy.
All I can do is seek to have the facts brought out and if all I can do is tell my side of the story, then I will at least know I tried.
I have to believe I am not alone in the Twightlight Zone I have been living in since my wife left. I sent you and email, but must openly admit that no words are going to make anything better.
She's a horrible human being and her son is pretty screwed up as well, but I would give anything to have their love and to be back with me.
I have decided not to file for an annulment. Love is not a two way thing..true love doesn't love because the love person loves them back..it's not a conditional thing..that is what I have come to realize, just as I have come to realize, nor is it something we can control or decide.. I can't decide to love and care about them or not.. it is what it is. I would lay my life down for that woman..run into a burning building even now.
I am human, even this I know will pass, we all can find whatever means by whatever our personal capacity is for misery, to live with anything...to live no matter what...to live, even if we realize the best is behind us.
Originally posted by MajKarma: I have to believe I am not alone in the Twightlight Zone I have been living in since my wife left. I sent you and email, but must openly admit that no words are going to make anything better.
She's a horrible human being and her son is pretty screwed up as well, but I would give anything to have their love and to be back with me.
I have decided not to file for an annulment. Love is not a two way thing..true love doesn't love because the love person loves them back..it's not a conditional thing..that is what I have come to realize, just as I have come to realize, nor is it something we can control or decide.. I can't decide to love and care about them or not.. it is what it is. I would lay my life down for that woman..run into a burning building even now.
I am human, even this I know will pass, we all can find whatever means by whatever our personal capacity is for misery, to live with anything...to live no matter what...to live, even if we realize the best is behind us.
MajKarma,
How can you say the "best is behind" you, if you openly admit that your beloved deceived you? What kind of woman deserves your love when she did what she did, and obviously had no respect for you, and chances are never did?
Grieving a lost love is normal. But placing more value upon it than it merits is not.
The above is simply an opinion. Your mileage may vary. For immigration issues, please consult an immigration attorney.
Posts: 1175 | Location: ..the natural world | Registered: 06-13-2005
Because contrary to what may be normal in these days and times, I was and am still in love with my wife and for all her selfishness and deceptions, she made me very happy when she was good to me.
Some would rather live on hamburgers and french fries all their lives, but I would rather starve half the time in order to have steak when I can get it.
None of you may get this but I would tak the abuse and use in order to have her love and affection some of the time.
Just being honest.
<MajKarma>
Posted
PS. Here is another horrible fact. This woman at her worst was/is more than any American woman I have ever been with in 35 years and I am no frog. What can say? American women make me sick compared to the Russians.
I felt guilty for saying that for one moment...just for one moment.
Originally posted by MajKarma: This woman at her worst was/is more than any American woman I have ever been with in 35 years and I am no frog. This woman
Which woman? The person that you married and that later deceived you, or the illusion that she created for you to see and love?
Yes it seems harsh to say, but can you really be sure if the woman you claim was so good to you was expressing real interest in you, or was it simply a means to an end.
P.S. I'll overlook the generalisation about Western women and not take it personally.
The above is simply an opinion. Your mileage may vary. For immigration issues, please consult an immigration attorney.
Posts: 1175 | Location: ..the natural world | Registered: 06-13-2005
Obviously I have a hard time accepting that a woman I wanted and loved so much did not love or care about me and was just using me as a means to her end. Such behavior is very alien to me...I could never be with someone I didn't love and care about, for example. However, I am sobered realizing that there are such people.
As for my observation on American women, it is sincere and based on a lifetime of observation and experience. Moreover, I have been looking hard for a woman who might replace the void that my Russian wife has left...looking high ad low and in every direction. Yes, it is true that women my age is one of the problems, as they are theyu lives and betrayals show clearly on their faces and bodies, and while making blanket generalizations is of course flawed thinking, why would anyone go through what us men go through in finding wives in Russia if American women were not so horrible. I am not going to hide my disgust or contempt, this is supposed to be an honest and open forum. Attractive American Women over 35 are rare and when and where we find them, they are spoiled and I don't mean like a cute brat.
I expect some to be offended by my opinion, as they should be and would be more if I said everything I really think and observe. For my part, I am going through and "Anger Phase" which makes me less than kind, but the men know what I am talking about.
Let's put it this way. I have been bloodied and hurt beyond words by my Russian wife, but am already realizing that I will probably have to find another; go through it and risk it all again because the choices for a mate in this country are so unappealing.
It's a depressing fact that us men, who are willing to work and strive to provide for and do all we can to be good husbands, have to go through such misery to find attractive good women for mates and even when we think we have found such, they prove to be no better than other women deep down inside. This is probably an ancient problem..look what King David went through to get the woman he wanted.
Personally, I wish I could find a way not to want a mate but the alternatives to the risks are just as horrible.
If I find an attractive woman that is an exception to my comments, I will be the first to say so. Meanwhile, I will keep looking to be proven wrong.. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Moral and traditional Christian values are fast disappearing. Practices like divorce or annulment, same-*** marriage and other controversial laws make people behave differently. And it's reflected even in discussion boards like this.
Originally posted by Michael: An annulment means that the marriage was void from the beginning for something such as fraud. I do not think any state allows for a divorce on the basis of fraud. I do not think you can get an annullment after a divorce since the divorce terminates the marriage. You can sue for fraud after the divorce which is what I did. The main thing is that you want USCIS and the grint that there was a fraud involved. This does several things: 1) Gets you back some cash which is always a good thing 2) Absolves you of any involvement of the savage grints fraud 3) You mess up the grints credit 4) You notify the grint and her new husband that you know what she did and that 5) You stand up for yourself (most important thing) 6) USCIS has a basis for refusing to grant a green card for your marriage or any other marriage (no guarantee what they will really do)
How did you sue for fraud? I want to go the next step and file an annullment, and then go the next step and sue this user. I wrote a post what happened to me and the process I am going through. Can you suggest anything to help?
quote:
Originally posted by Michael: An annulment means that the marriage was void from the beginning for something such as fraud. I do not think any state allows for a divorce on the basis of fraud. I do not think you can get an annullment after a divorce since the divorce terminates the marriage. You can sue for fraud after the divorce which is what I did. The main thing is that you want USCIS and the grint that there was a fraud involved. This does several things: 1) Gets you back some cash which is always a good thing 2) Absolves you of any involvement of the savage grints fraud 3) You mess up the grints credit 4) You notify the grint and her new husband that you know what she did and that 5) You stand up for yourself (most important thing) 6) USCIS has a basis for refusing to grant a green card for your marriage or any other marriage (no guarantee what they will really do)
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