I've followed this thread from the start. What I would really like to here from the opposing sides is a list of all the posters who are BIGOTS and another list of who are NOT. Some are obvious, however some I'm not sure.Thanks!
Rough, I have no idea what you meant about the responses aside taking it way off base. But to sharpen the point as it were.
What I meant about our enforcement folks needing upgrades is this. At present they go after a wide variety of illegals. For the most part the ones they catch are not the serious offenders. It is similar to the situation of a military during peace time. If you want them to specifically go after the violent offenders they will need more intensive training in urban warfare. That is what it will amount to. Drug dealers and people of that nature will not go quietly. There will be many fire fights and a lot of casualties. Perhaps that is part of the reason they don't make it a point to target them as much due to the amount of collateral damage likely to occur. I would suggest enlisting the help of the DEA or local SWAT for this.
What I said about family reunification was as simple as this. If they want to stay together then the kids go back with the parents. I merely said it was wrong to grant privilege to parents due to the kids birth location.
The entire blurb about time to train is meaningless. It isn't anyones fault but the business owner if they can't train and retain people. BTW, I don't own a restaurant. Don't know where you got that from. But even if I did I wouldn't cry about employees and such. If it were to fail I would have no one to blame but myself. No scapegoating immigration for not allowing enough border jumpers to wash dishes.
Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant concerning the e-verify system. It may help to talk to a software developer to understand the level of security capable with such a system. It would work very well especially if the cheating by employers is assumed as demonstrated in the past with I-9.
You were the one who brought up the credit cards. I know what you meant and was merely making the point of my own personal protest to the idea of selling out American jobs for sake of a few dollars in savings. It makes better sense to provide real 'customer service' even if does cost a little more. I do it and it does pay off. Ha ha back at you. (lol).
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5765 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Chuck, I know what your saying and it may appear as inevitable what happened. You can thank the non enforcement of the law for breaking your unions. If the employers were not able to bring them here you would still have your union. Even if not your wages would be a lot higher. Its quite simple. The meat must be cut. If you and every other packer would demand wages commensurate with the work you would get it. The problem was the dilution of your workforce with illegals poring in who did it for 1/2. This is just like what Rough mentioned about the credit card customer service. The employers shipped the customer service jobs over seas only because the they can pay them 1/2 to 1/4 what it would cost here.
Lets say that option wasn't available. If they had to keep the office within our border only two options would exist. Either hire illegals for cheap or pay Americans the appropriate wage. In your case you got the shaft. They broke the union with the illegals. If the laws were enforced one way or the other your employer would have no choice but to pay you what you deserve. That or go out of business. If anyone throws up the argument about setting up shop in Mexico look into the laws for importing meat. If it were possible they would have done it and Chuck would have no job at all.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5765 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Originally posted by chuck: ALL POSTERS ON THIS THREAD
I've followed this thread from the start. What I would really like to here from the opposing sides is a list of all the posters who are BIGOTS and another list of who are NOT. Some are obvious, however some I'm not sure.Thanks!
Sorry if I left someone out, but these are the regular member who have posted lately and/or that I have exchanged opinions with. Remember that this is MY OPINION ONLY. Being listed as a bigot does no necessarily mean that you really are a bigot, except for the first four of the list
If your going to post a label you should define what you mean by the term bigot. Be very clear since the actual definition is racist by default.
For starters this is what I found: bigot n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
By this definition your list needs some adjustment. The key phrase is intolerant of differing opinions. You may want to see who's posts displayed that tone. A good benchmark might be Iperson. The queen of intolerance. Keep in mind that it isn't a different opinion, its the intolerance to a different opinion.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5765 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Main Entry: big·ot Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\ Function: noun Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot Date: 1660 : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Jeff, you have a shortened version of the definition. Above is a more complete definition and this should clear any confusion you have on the issue. Perhaps you are the one who requires more schooling?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: ProudUSC,
Thanks for your input, Davdah and ProudUSC. You all are free to correct/update this list anytime. According to the definitions made above, the first three members of the list are too obvious, though...
San Quentin State Prison in California holds more than 5,200 inmates.
NEW YORK (AP) -- For the first time in history, more than one in every 100 American adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report.
The report, released Thursday by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.
Using updated state-by-state data, the report said 2,319,258 adults were held in U.S. prisons or jails at the start of 2008 -- one out of every 99.1 adults, and more than any other country in the world.
The steadily growing inmate population "is saddling cash-strapped states with soaring costs they can ill afford and failing to have a clear impact either on recidivism or overall crime," the report said.
Susan Urahn, managing director of the Pew Center on the States, said budget woes are prompting officials in many states to consider new, cost-saving corrections policies that might have been shunned in the recent past for fear of appearing soft in crime.
"We're seeing more and more states being creative because of tight budgets," she said in an interview. "They want to be tough on crime, they want to be a law-and-order state -- but they also want to save money, and they want to be effective."
The report cited Kansas and Texas as states which have acted decisively to slow the growth of their inmate population. Their actions include greater use of community supervision for low-risk offenders and employing sanctions other than reimprisonment for ex-offenders who commit technical violations of parole and probation rules.
"The new approach, born of bipartisan leadership, is allowing the two states to ensure they have enough prison beds for violent offenders while helping less dangerous lawbreakers become productive, taxpaying citizens," the report said.
While many state governments have shown bipartisan interest in curbing prison growth, there also are persistent calls to proceed cautiously.
"We need to be smarter," said David Muhlhausen, a criminal justice expert with the conservative Heritage Foundation. "We're not incarcerating all the people who commit serious crimes -- but we're also probably incarcerating people who don't need to be."
According to the report, the inmate population increased last year in 36 states and the federal prison system.
The largest percentage increase -- 12 percent -- was in Kentucky, where Gov. Steve Beshear highlighted the cost of corrections in his budget speech last month. He noted that the state's crime rate had increased only about 3 percent in the past 30 years, while the state's inmate population has increased by 600 percent.
The Pew report was compiled by the Center on the State's Public Safety Performance Project, which is working directly with 13 states on developing programs to divert offenders from prison without jeopardizing public safety.
"For all the money spent on corrections today, there hasn't been a clear and convincing return for public safety," said the project's director, Adam Gelb. "More and more states are beginning to rethink their reliance on prisons for lower-level offenders and finding strategies that are tough on crime without being so tough on taxpayers."
The report said prison growth and higher incarceration rates do not reflect a parallel increase in crime or in the nation's overall population. Instead, it said, more people are behind bars mainly because of tough sentencing measures, such as "three-strikes" laws, that result in longer prison stays.
"For some groups, the incarceration numbers are especially startling," the report said. "While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."
The nationwide figures, as of January 1, include 1,596,127 people in state and federal prisons and 723,131 in local jails -- a total 2,319,258 out of almost 230 million American adults.
The report said the United States is the world's incarceration leader, far ahead of more populous China with 1.5 million people behind bars. It said the U.S. also is the leader in inmates per capita (750 per 100,000 people), ahead of Russia (628 per 100,000) and other former Soviet bloc nations which make up the rest of the Top 10. E-mail to a friend
Thanks for considering me as one of those open-minded people. I'm an immigrant and I can't be judging other people who I just meet in a cursory manner here. To do otherwise would be like me being more popish than the Pope.
Do all the good you can, in all the ways you can, as long as ever you can.
Originally posted by davdah: Rough, I have no idea what you meant about the responses aside taking it way off base. But to sharpen the point as it were.
You said many times before that you may not agree on what others say, but that you respect their right to say it. Well, I’m soliciting such respect, if you consider me as one of the others.
quote:
What I meant about our enforcement folks needing upgrades is this. At present they go after a wide variety of illegals. For the most part the ones they catch are not the serious offenders. It is similar to the situation of a military during peace time. If you want them to specifically go after the violent offenders they will need more intensive training in urban warfare. That is what it will amount to. Drug dealers and people of that nature will not go quietly. There will be many fire fights and a lot of casualties. Perhaps that is part of the reason they don't make it a point to target them as much due to the amount of collateral damage likely to occur. I would suggest enlisting the help of the DEA or local SWAT for this.
Oooh! This makes me sad. If the government agency that’s mandated by Congress, by relevant laws, and by the Constitution, to carry out this task (tough as it is) can’t do it, who will? Oh, I know, vigilantism by individual states or by the citizenry themselves.
De-part-ment of Home-land Se-cu-ri-ty! It resounds with a deafening relevance for me by just mouthing out the phrase - that such a department has been created (with three bureaus: CIS/CBP/ICE out of the earstwhile toothless agency, the INS, under the DOJ) to afford for me and my family (and for all the rest of my fellowmen in this great country) life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (that are worthy of human dignity, if I may add) in the post-9/11 era.
And just to spice up our conversation, I would want to get down to some hard mathematics here. Mr. Chertoff’s department has this whopping price tag (that you and I should know): “$12.1 billion, broken down as follows - $442 million to hire additional border agents, with the aim of having 20,000 agents by September 2009; $3 billion for internal enforcement by ICE; $100 million for the expansion of the Basic Pilot and E-Verify programs; and $100 million to hire about 50 federal prosecutors and strengthen operations at the Drug Enforcement Administration and immigration courts.â€
Need I say more?
quote:
What I said about family reunification was as simple as this. If they want to stay together then the kids go back with the parents. I merely said it was wrong to grant privilege to parents due to the kids birth location.
Once again, I can see your tendency to simplify a very, very complex topic of family reunification. “They can easily go back as they came in!†Is this what you say? Haha! I can see some inconsistencies here from somebody who didn’t send somebody back to Indonesia who may have been in violation of her visa. It was supposed to be that simple right? She could have left as she came in? Nah, it would have broken somebody’s heart if that happened! So why not hire a topnotch lawyer, post bond, file waivers, and do practically everything to let her stay! And that somebody and the alien WERE NOT YET even a family.
But of course, I CAN EASILY JUDGE and do away with it when such a case happens to others and NOT TO ME! WooHaah!
You really like to shove this topic about Birthright Citizenship into my throat, despite my repeated declaration that it’s not what I’m after?
I repeat, my point then and now, is for Congress to rationalize and update the family visa processes because just like employment, these are the two major magnets of alien immigration into the US.
To tell you the truth, since I joined this forum, I made a comment about this birthright topic only once or twice. And here is my position on the subject.
“Again, it’s a matter of opinion, but each time I give my thoughts on a specific topic, I always set aside my personal biases and let the fundamental law guide my judgments. Anyway, that’s just me.
The “birthright US citizenship for all†is a federal mandate imposed on all states that has been a very contentious issue since the infancy of this nation, through the Reconstruction Era, up to this day that we discuss it on ILW.
It was challenged by the 1857 decision in re: Dred Scott v. Sanford that held no any black, even those freed from slavery, could be a citizen of the United States. But it was overturned by the adoption of the 14th Amendment in 1870. As an amendment to the US Constitution, this doctrine is written in stone that no foreseeable act of Congress, of today or of generations to come, could repeal.
The 14th Amendment was again challenged by the 1898 holding of Supreme Court in US v. Wong Kim Ark that the 14th Amendment adopted the common-law definition of birthright citizenship. Chief Justice Fuller’s dissenting opinion argued that birthright citizenship had been repealed by the principles of the American Revolution and rejected by the framers of the 14th Amendment. Yet still finally, the majority decision conferred birthright citizenship on a child of both “legal and illegal residents†of the United States.
Based on the intent of the framers of the 14th Amendment, some believe that Congress could exercise its Section 5 powers that says: “The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article,†to prevent the children of illegal aliens from automatically becoming US citizens.
Recent legislative overtures to this effect are all but “dead on arrival†in Congress in the face of intense opposition from human rights groups and from most members of Congress themselves.
Well, in its purest and most unadulterated essence, this is America in my naked eyes, a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants.
Are we the only country endowed with the richness of resources from Mother Nature? Highly unlikely. We have oil but not much. We have mines but not much. We have fertile soil but not much. We have aquatic resources but not much.
But what we have in abundance is an institutionalized order brought about by the time-tested fundamental law (Constitution) and a superfluous supply of great, great human minds and talents.
We produce them. We import them. They cross our borders. They overstay on our visas. And yes, we give them back to the world. To me, this is the true measure of being an American.â€
Again, need I say more?
quote:
The entire blurb about time to train is meaningless. It isn't anyones fault but the business owner if they can't train and retain people. BTW, I don't own a restaurant. Don't know where you got that from. But even if I did I wouldn't cry about employees and such. If it were to fail I would have no one to blame but myself. No scapegoating immigration for not allowing enough border jumpers to wash dishes.
Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant concerning the e-verify system. It may help to talk to a software developer to understand the level of security capable with such a system. It would work very well especially if the cheating by employers is assumed as demonstrated in the past with I-9.
You were the one who brought up the credit cards. I know what you meant and was merely making the point of my own personal protest to the idea of selling out American jobs for sake of a few dollars in savings. It makes better sense to provide real 'customer service' even if does cost a little more. I do it and it does pay off. Ha ha back at you. (lol).
Restaurant or not is meaningless. I thought I read it sometime back that you said it, but I may be wrong in that regard. Anyway, that’s beside the point because we can use your other business that you claimed, which is apartment rentals just to drive my point. Compare the training required for your apartment Property Manager with an MSOffice Technician overseas. This partly explains why many IT based companies opt to ship jobs overseas: a captive pool of well-trained workers, economical, and with assured longer tenure. That’s capitalism, my friend. We do everything to be competitive.
And my other point is, the worksite that is the center of most controversies nowadays, is not as simplistic an arena that you would want it to appear. Your tendency to stereotype and simplify this very complicated issue (just like others who tend to demonize the working people and the employers to feed their anti-immigrant sentiments), does just that – not solve but rather aggravate further the hitherto solvable problem.
I said it already in my previous post, E-verify will only deliver magical results provided that the playing field is sanitized first of the reasonable existence of “undocumented workers†and when still there are violators and schemers, both workers and employers, the authorities can intervene in an orderly manner.
Unlike now, it’s analogous to people taking a bath from sewage water, and expect to smell fresh afterwards. How?
Oh, before I close, E-verify, in conjunction with State Anti-immigration Legislations, that may have identical objectives... I have an update for you.
Let’s take the cases of Arizona and Oklahoma. And I’m quoting this very relevant piece (Thank you, Sir. When you read this, you know it’s you who I’m referring to).
“In response to a duo of anti-immigration laws passed in both Arizona and Oklahoma, a rush of undocumented immigrants have begun entering Texas to obtain employment, The Houston Chronicle reports. Though few estimates are available because undocumented immigrants are difficult to track, community activists say immigrants have arrived in Houston and Dallas in recent months, and expect hundreds more families soon.
“They’re really tightening the screws,†said Mario Ortiz, an undocumented Mexican worker who came to Houston after leaving Phoenix last year. “There have been a lot coming – it could be 100 a day.â€
The massive influx into the Lonestar State is a result of both the Oklahoma statute, which took effect in November, and makes it a crime to hire or transport undocumented immigrants; and the Arizona statute, effective Jan. 1, which suspends the business licenses of employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers. Conversely, Texas has yet to pass any statewide laws targeting the employment of undocumented immigrants.
The exodus of immigrants has caused a sharp decline in both businesses and real estate in Tulsa and Oklahoma City. “I think we swung the pendulum too far; we’re hurting people, the immigrant families, and we’re going to hurt the economy,†said Mike Means, executive vice president of the Oklahoma State Homebuilders Association. David Castillo, executive director of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce also notes the effect the migration has had on rental property, newly vacated by fleeing immigrants. “There’s been a tremendous impact in Oklahoma City,†Castillo said.
“We’ve had several companies close shop and leave the state. Banks have called us and say they’re closing 30 accounts per week.â€
(Again, thank you Sir).
___________________________________________________________________ "The letter of the law is a sword that killeth; its intent is a spirit that giveth life."
Now we're getting somewhere. On the issue of our DOH people. The question is not that they can do it, but that there was too much to do. As you pointed out, the agency is getting its shot in the arm. Hopefully people won't start crying foul when they are able to effectively carry out their duties to the fullest. I guess we'll see when it happens. And it will as those numbers clearly show a build up.
I simplify because as a rule the simplest answer is usually the best. As our mathematics teachers taught us. Simplify to solve. You are confusing an issue with Indonesia that doesn't exist anymore. Without spelling it out again leave it to say that if hypothetically it were as you stated there would be one less person here. The heart has no place in the rule of law. Every person, self included, should abide by it regardless of the outcome. Birthright or not it should not be used in reverse to sanction or promote unlawful presence. If a child is a USC then let him/her go with their parents. They can come back when they are 18. That is how you avoid tearing families apart and maintain a person's citizenship. Since the big argument seems to be 'don't fracture the family', don't. For any kids left behind they should be treated like any other that are abandoned by their parents.
The sanitization you proposed still requires people to comply. I say they won't since to date they have not. Would you expect a metamorphosis in character to motivate them to abide when in the past they did not? The ideas I proposed would not require any change in current behavior. It would only bring about a different result. It seems it already is.
The last part was a good example of how this is already working. Enforcement directed at the root of the problem, employers, is the best and simplest answer. As enforcement is stepped up state by state and city by city the sanctuaries will become more scarce. A funneling affect is being seen already. The problem will become more isolated and easier to control when in smaller and denser localities. If you want to make the analogy of a rancher herding up the sheep, by all means it fits.
And of course there will be an immediate spike in negative commerce with the removal of illegals in any area. But wait, and watch. Within a year there will be a turn around that will leave the IA huggers speechless. The economy will actually rebound and improve in those areas. How can that be? Stay tuned to Oklahoma city radio and hear the miracle.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5765 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Originally posted by davdah: Now we're getting somewhere. On the issue of our DOH people. ...
Getting somewhere? Oops! Where? Down the sink hole? Nowhere if from the outset you're messing up your data, baby! Okay, I'm not that narrow-minded to dwell on that teeny weeny issue.
But do you know what I learned all through out my schooling? Aside from mathematics, and related courses, there are various other subjects in the whole curriculum such as sciences and arts, philosophy and ethics, languages, economics, civics and humanities, and many other fields of specialization.
And do you know what's common among all curricular disciplines? An orderly systematized body of thinking based on facts, laws, and principles. Being an obedient and compliant student once (and being a teacher also for sometime), I diligently apply the same mode of thinking in my professional life.
And this is how, my friend, I pay my respects to you when we discuss. What do I get in return? One spin after another. Clever? ... never mind, I'm not very good at throwing insults.
___________________________________________________________________ "The letter of the law is a sword that killeth; its intent is a spirit that giveth life."
I'm at a loss here. What was that supposed to mean? Spins? I don't twirl around a subject. Why all the symbolism in your dialog? I thought we were getting out of that rut. You were beginning to post something of substance instead of the usual word plays.
Since you were a teacher once upon a time you may appreciate the problem in schools. Is it right for the kids to have the brakes applied in order to avoid hurting the feelings of the kids who don't speak English? Or should we just accept the inevitable and post the following sign outside the school.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5765 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
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