quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
I suppose the size of the bone will depend on several issues. Time to talk the blood ****ing lawyer again.

Hey Sonof, your idea would have worked on my last wife. She was a raging alcoholic.

Be careful of the lawyer. If the lawyer is going to tell you you can keep all your property prior to the marriage as separate, he/she is selling you snake oil. The biggest complication in your prenupt is immigration; that is, when you begin to remove the conditional residency two years after she receives her conditional green card, you will need to have some joint property, acquired or gifted during marriage. Anything short, including the prenuptial may be presumed as not a valid marriage even if you argue the legal reasons for the prenup, no matter how valid they may seem. Otherwise, you run the risk of more legal fees on the immigration side at the expense of the legal fees not paid for the prenuptial.

A couple may not be asked to have a "more real marriage" than any other couple just because they're applying for immigration benefits, that's the Court's opinion. What the couple must show is that they didn't get married to evade immigration law, having joint property could help make a point but it does not prove anything. Some couples don't have any joint property simply because they can't afford it and that doesn't mean they don't have bona fide intent.

If the OP has doubts he or she should consult with a lawyer. This is not a place to look for legal advice.

-THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE-

Davdah, I know you're not a stupid person. ALWAYS GO FOR A PRENUP. Any R E A L woman would understand. It will take the doubt out of your marriage and your marriage will be stronger because of this.

I have thought about how immigration would view a prenupt. The reason for this posting to begin with. I assumed it may cast a shadow of doubt on the authenticity of a marriage. How big a shadow was the question.

Its true that many people just can't afford any property at all. For them its a non issue. For those that can does USCIS view a prenupt as a normal precautionary tool or as a way to skirt the system. I suppose Im worried that it may be enough for them to say no, she can't stay. At the same time I don't want to be unnecessarily vulnerable. My crystal ball quit working a while ago. So I have no way of knowing what she'll be like in 5 or so years.

If it were possible to transfer the titles before hand to a trustworthy entity that would suffice. I guess I'll have to do some more digging. I'll need to stay in California for this since Texas is a common law marriage state.


CKT510, I absolutely agree.

My point is simple, are you marrying to evade the law? If you answered NO to the question, you should prevail. Maybe you'll face additional questioning, but if you marry in good faith you should be fine.

You have to make the decision by yourself, people here cannot tell you what to do. You should always consult with an attorney if you need legal advice.

-THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE-

There is no legal evading intenet. Just trying to keep 20/20 vision before hand.

Since its not possible to know a persons character down the trail I would like some assurances I won't have to fight to keep what I made later on. Your a guy. Ever been divorced? If you have then you know what its like. The X wife always wants to stick it to the X husband. Even if it doesn't start out that way, along come the lawyers and it soon will.

I have to take into consideration that children are forever and spouses are potentially not. If it comes down to it I'll chose what is in the best interest of the kids versus her.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: davdah,

What is "prenupt" ?

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Looking for input on the following issue. If your married to an immigrant and you have a prenupt does the I-864 render it void? If you have been married to an immigrant and later divorced with a prenupt in place what was the outcome? Was the prenupt upheld? Did the fact of the spouse being an immigrant have any relevance to the status or enforceability of the prenupt?

Ive done some reading on it and the only sticking point I could find was the possible issue of coercion. It could be argued the immigrant was under duress to sign otherwise they would lose their sponsor. If it were me that is what I would argue. I intend on seeing an attorney about this but some real world experiences would be nice to hear.

Hey Davdah,
I have heard both sides of the prenumptual argument and both pro and con present their own positive attributes. I guess you have to take a long hard look at the person you are considering a marital prospect, and judge accordingly. if you are not completely sure that this will be a lifelong partner, I don't think a prenumt will rectify the ambivalent feelings you may be battling.
My personal feeling is that a prenumpt is a negative way to start off a marriage. I understand that you were burned by your former spouse, but I just think a prenumpt will set a mistrust from the get go for your new wife. She will always feel that you may trust her, but not with your money, causing her to feel insecure in you. This might be horrible legal advice, I know, but a prenumt is not a good way to say I love you and trust you forever, but can you sign this first, because I'm not sure.
Just my opinion, I know you were burned before, but something to think about...

quote:

Originally posted by Houston:
A couple may not be asked to have a "more real marriage" than any other couple just because they're applying for immigration benefits, that's the Court's opinion. What the couple must show is that they didn't get married to evade immigration law, having joint property could help make a point but it does not prove anything. Some couples don't have any joint property simply because they can't afford it and that doesn't mean they don't have bona fide intent.

If the OP has doubts he or she should consult with a lawyer. This is not a place to look for legal advice.

-THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE-

Agreed that immigration officers cannot explicitly ask if the marriage was a "more real marriage" than normal USC; however, that does not preclude them from thinking or observing that way. The prenupp and the I-864 will have no bearing whatsoever with the adjustment of status process, but the prenupt can have an impact on the removal of conditional residency in the near future. That is where Davdah concern needs to be beyond if his future spouse will accept the prenupt as a positive step.

And hence, that is where the discussion should be lead to.

quote:

Originally posted by CKT510:
Davdah, I know you're not a stupid person. ALWAYS GO FOR A PRENUP. Any R E A L woman would understand. It will take the doubt out of your marriage and your marriage will be stronger because of this.

But not a R E A L Man would never suggest a prenuptial if the R E A L man was not afraid of himself or his future.

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
There is no legal evading intenet. Just trying to keep 20/20 vision before hand.

Since its not possible to know a persons character down the trail I would like some assurances I won't have to fight to keep what I made later on. Your a guy. Ever been divorced? If you have then you know what its like. The X wife always wants to stick it to the X husband. Even if it doesn't start out that way, along come the lawyers and it soon will.

I have to take into consideration that children are forever and spouses are potentially not. If it comes down to it I'll chose what is in the best interest of the kids versus her.

1. If you have lived with your girlfriend for some time, you know to some degree what she thinks, how she feels, how she acts, etc and vice versa. And yes, yes, there is the adage that states, "no one knows what is on a woman's mind" but that is more myth than reality.

2. From her point of view, you hold everything since she is out of status at the moment, but she too is not stupid. If it comes down to it, she will protect herself as well. You can't blame her for that can you since you are doing the same bloody thing. The question is how honest will you be with her and not "stick it to the spouse like your ex did."

3. She may give you the same slap on the face if you propose a prenup. It is very possible she may not take it the way you think.

4. The one thing you have not considered is how the prenuptial will affect your tax situation. If you do sign the prenuptial, you will have to file married filing separately. This will limit any passive activity losses, will severely reduce or eliminate most deductions and/or credits, you will pay a higher tax rate generally, and other tax delinquencies. To keep the property separate, you will not be able to file joint tax return at all.

5. The questions about marriage and the prenuptial are not only on her, but on you too. You need to balance the leverage of your assets for the love of the woman you are going to marry. Are you willing to make her happy, content, joyful, satisfied both emotionally and physically? How much are you willing to sacrifice yourself for the love of your wife? (And no I am not talking about any infraction of the law here)


I understand and sympathize with you why you want a prenuptial. I was playing somewhat a "devil's advocate" but also showing the deep concerns what a prenuptial can do to a marriage as observed from a couple of my friends.

NeedHelp, I know what your saying. A prenumpt more or less says Im not trusting you 100%. The truth is I don't. Only because things and people can change over time. Trying to explain that is much easier said than done.

I have taken into consideration the tax issues. It will complicate it somewhat. The only real loss will be the higher tax bracket due to filing seperate. The rest of it won't matter since its all business related. No impact if married or not.


Last night it came up. Along with a couple other issues, namely some strange thoughts from her dad. She told me a couple times that he questions my integrety to some degree. I never actually talked to him since he speaks no English. This was long before any thought of a prenupt. I was stunned. I asked her if he knew of everything I did for her. Bonding her, paying for the attorney, giving her a nice place to live, a new car, etc. etc.. I always thought a person is best judged by what they do. Aside from the fact I can afford to do it, it still is my choice to do it the first place.

Didn't get much of a response on that but it went more sideways when the prenupt came up.
She isnt' here now, left last night or early this morning before I got up. She has some relatives a couple hours from here, so Im guessing she may be there. When she gets back I'll have a clear answer one way or the other.

If your having so many doubts then why marry again???? I understand you have been taken for so much already so my question do you really love this person or are you doing her a favor?

Hudson, OBVIOUSLY it's not YOUR hard earned money or YOUR future that we are speaking about. Otherwise, I am CERTAIN you would also have a prenuptial -- cut the s**t. Davdah, you said it best, people and things change over time, sad, but true. And if it doesn't, you will BOTH live happily ever after! Also, look closer into your future father-in-law.

Aquafina, I do love her. I wouldn't do that for her or anyone as a favor. If I did I would be asking for trouble. It would be like saying "I'll help you steal something but promise you won't steal from me." Foolish.

CKT510, your right, if nothing bad happens then it would be as if it never existed. But, there is always the potential for a but. Since Ive been there done that more than once. Each time it was the same story. Started out good, but when it went bad it turned into 'get em for as much as you can'. I would like to hear from any guy who went through a divorce and the wife didn't do that.

There is the issue of balance. The financial risk versus the display of mistrust. That is where Im at, trying to explain it. Im havig to educate her on what community property is and all that. Didnt have a clue.

I found out about the dad thing. It mostly had to do with peoples notions of what Americans are like. In some countries we're perceived as being very free willed in so far as how many relationships we carry on at a time. In short, if I marry his daughter would I have any concubines on the side. Being protective I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by CKT510:
Hudson, OBVIOUSLY it's not YOUR hard earned money or YOUR future that we are speaking about. Otherwise, I am CERTAIN you would also have a prenuptial -- cut the s**t. Davdah, you said it best, people and things change over time, sad, but true. And if it doesn't, you will BOTH live happily ever after! Also, look closer into your future father-in-law.

1. There are legitimate reasons for prenuptials. Generally, both spouses want a prenuptial to protect property or their own inherent interests. It gets more complicated when one spouse has all the assets and the other does not. And because of that scenario, it can be perceived as a controlling issue by the other party for legitimate reasons as well. A Prenuptial is not for everybody or anybody. It is based on specific set of circumstances. It can be viewed positively or negatively, generally the latter.

2. When you are single, it is your money. When you are married, it is married money. And when you have a family, it is family money. Egoism and self-destructive, self-centered egotistical mantras can destroy a marriage faster than any infidelity that can occur. It detroys trust, honesty, and open communication in any relationship. And without that trust, honesty, and open communication, a relationship will not last.

3. The father is protecting hes daughter. If he has concerns, it is up to the future son-in-law to ease those tensions. I went through it when I married my wife. Had to pay a dowry during the first three years of marriage. Did I like it? NO. Did I accept it? Yes. I did it because I loved my wife and still do.

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
There is the issue of balance. The financial risk versus the display of mistrust. That is where Im at, trying to explain it. Im havig to educate her on what community property is and all that. Didnt have a clue.

I am curious. Have you placed yourself in her shoes? Or have thought if the situation was reversed and she was proposing a prenuptial, would you feel gratitude or reluctance?

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
I have taken into consideration the tax issues. It will complicate it somewhat. The only real loss will be the higher tax bracket due to filing seperate. The rest of it won't matter since its all business related. No impact if married or not.

I wouldn't be so sure. On her side, you will be at a great disadvantage. For one, since you are making the house payments, mortgage payments, etc, all the itemized deductions will go to you, she won't get anything unless she had her own property, casualty loss, miscellaneously deductions, charitable deductions, etc. And I recall, you have rental real estate. Unless it is organized on a Sch C, 1120, or 1120-S, those rental activity, particularly the losses, will be severely limited. But I would have to see the tax return to make a complete analysis.

What's the big deal about a prenupt, Hudson??? If two people love each other, shouldn't one understand the concerns about the other who may have just worked 20-30 years of their life and wants to ensure where the money should go should there be a divorce??? You are living in a dream world, not in 2007. If someone just worked their a** off for years and years and is concerned about the future of his estate, I WOULD certainly take the pressure off of him/her and sign a prenupt. Again, what's the big deal????