quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Explora, you are getting my responses mixed up. Mr magoo was for MAGOO. take another look.

Oops! My bad!
(But what I said is true.

I know. No big deal. I should probably start quoting people, this isn't the first time.

quote:

Meaning?
Crystal ball says you should just hide and watch.

Why ?

I don't think CCA can affect the number of arrests made by immigration. They are completely seperate from each other with CCA being a Gov contractor. On a positive note. Most prisoners would much rather be under custody with CCA than with the normal prison system. That is the word from inside. Not to say they wouldn't rather be free, but given a choice between fish tanks.

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Voluntary? They didn't tell me that. They said if I couldn't produce the documentation to prove we received the numbers I gave them it would cost me. I guess its like the idea that the entire tax system is voluntary.(lol)

I get what you mean. It would be better and they will probably soon require numbers be verified prior to work. I'm doing it now, calling the numbers in to check them. Funny thing was, most of the fake ones we got were not from foreigners. People here being tax cheats.

The documentation is either the W-9, W-8 series, or the I-9. W-9 is used for non wage services. This includes not only self employment income, but interest, dividends, patronage, and the other income listed in Publication 2108. And it may be prudent to ask for copies of IRS letter 147C, which is a letter verifying the EIN, or a copy of the IRS Notice CP 575, which is issued once someone obtains a new EIN. The W-8 series is used for Nonresident aliens which income is derived from US sources. Depending on the type of income depends on how the source is defined. For instance, where the work is located determines whether the source is US or foreign. For other incomes, it may be where the payer is located. However, it is not up to you to determine whether a person is a nonresident alien or a US resident or citizen. And of course the I-9 is for employee compensation.

What the TIN program does is essentially eliminate the paperwork, for you as the payer/employer, has to do to meet the federal minimum standard for complying with the law. If a person refuses to provide the EIN or has a really good fake IRS letter or notice, it makes your job easier. This is just convenience for you.

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Good analogy. There are some other side benefits to not hiring illegals. One being the quality and attitude towards the work done. If you hire an (known or unknown) illegal to do some construction work will they care about the quality of work, adhesian to building and standards codes. They don't. I can attest to that fact personally. Unknown to me a prior property manager had a habit of hiring illegals to do work on my buildings. It may cost more to hire John licensed contractor versus Juan but at least your ceiling won't cave in six months later.

Not a good anology. His assumption is that those small business owners will look for jobs is a farce. Some may close. This will drain the GDP of that area by the multiplicity factor. Some will change job descriptions. This may or may not increase wages. It could provide less jobs because the qualifications of that job will also change and some jobs will be eliminated. The question then becomes whether the advantages of changing job descriptions is more than the job losses. Perfect example is the manufacturing sector. Capital Alliance does a report every year on the job losses in manufacturing. The main culprit is technology for job losses, not outsourcing. And then you have the employer moving the operations outside US territory. This will essentially decrease GDP in the US while increasing GDP in the host country. The choices will be solely determined by the cost of compliance.

So, lets put you in the scenario. Lets aay your costs increase because of the illegal alien issue for gardeners, day laborers, etc. This could incldue state licensing requirements, US residency requirements, and tax compliance requirements. Your costs, in the end will go up; thus your profits will go down. At what point will you choose door #1, door #2, or door #3 (close, change, or move). My guess is either you will close or change job descriptions (start a new career) and I seriously doubt you will work for somebody since you have been your own boss for a good while. Of course, I could be wrong and you move outside the US to stretch your savings and maximize your cash flow.

In conclusion, the anology is not very good.

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Mr Magoo, I was only illustrating a point. Those events did take place and was using the names to merely state the obvious.

You support the breaking of federal laws forbidding such practices? It is hard to compare work ethics when I'm sure your friends probably never had any legal people to compare them to. Probably too cheap to hire any. That is why their construction companies will stay small. Once the new rules are in place will evaporate into nonexistance.

Work ethics is not defined by whether someone is legal or not, USC or not, black, brown, white, or purple with pink pok-a-dots, or even political preference (socialism, communism, democracy, totalitarianism, etc). It is taught at home and ethics can very based on culture, society norms, and religion. To generalize is to ignore the realities. I have worked with poeple who have very good work ethics, perfectionists to their job, etc; and I have worked with piss poor ***'s who are not in the job just for the money, but to take advantage of every possible weakness, procedure, or law to do that absolute minimum of wirk while not actually working. And no one group has a corner in either market.

The question is how to balance the letter of thw law with the spirit of the law. If we, as a society, only want to use the letter of the alw on immigration, then lets do the letter of the law in all other areas including building codes, parking and traffic violations, taxes, business practices, etc. And lets make the punishment only one penalty. To keep with Constitutional standards, only strictly applying due process of law (being notified in writing and no eligible for a trial by jury since it is not a criminal case), will be applied. The inconvenience by most, if not all people, will put a shock into their daily lives. But hey, the American persona is always put the pressure on dome undesirable group while leaving the desirable groups unaffected.

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Mikemezioa
Money talks, you know what walks. As far as what pay immigrants receive they can not by law be paid less than a comparable USC. Assuming they are legal. If not, well, you get what you pay for. The other universal truth.

What makes you htink that eveyone is obeying the labor laws all the time, not to mention the tax laws. In your former state, you have employers who refuse to withhold federal and FICA taxes, constantly pay their employees on non employee income, and do not pay the desired quality state or federal pay scales for the jobs they do do. And BTW, there employees are USC.

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Explora, I really didn't know what was going on until much later. The apartment buildings are in Texas and I was in CA. I gave the property manager free reign to do what was needed. Once I did find out that all changed. The next job which was a foundation leveling I gave the warning to the contractor not to have any you know whats on the job site. He didn't beleive me. Guess what happened. I had the green shirts on the job site within hours. The contractor I'm sure got nailed with a big fine. The job got done, correctly I might add.

Then I can make an argument that you are equally guilty, As owner of the property, it is your duty to know what is going on. You failed as a business owner by being laxed in your instructions to the manager when you stated, "I gave the property manager free reign to do what was needed." The manager will imply from your instructions to cut costs when needed and to use minimum standards to get the job done as long as the job was done. You also failed because you hired a manager who would probably take your instructions and misinterpret them in any way, shape, or form. This does not excuse what the property manager did or has done, but it does not exempt you either, Davdah.

quote:

Originally posted by explora:

quote:

Originally posted by RationalE:

quote:

Meaning?
Crystal ball says you should just hide and watch.

Why ?

RationalE,
When somebody is told 'Hide and Watch' it generally is left at that. It means just wait and see what will happen in the future.

Here's an example for you of the 'hide and watch what happens':

It's about that $$$$ Cha-Ching, Cha-Ching $$$$ thing again.

NASHVILLE PRISON OPERATOR GETS EARNINGS BOOST FROM IMMIGRATION ARRESTS

BY RANDY MCCLAIN
Tennessean.com
BUSINESS EDITOR
08/06/07

Corrections Corporation of America said more than 40 percent of its second-quarter revenue came from housing federal prisoners, many of who were detainees of Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents.

Total revenues for the April-June period were $362.8 million, up from about $325 million for the same period a year earlier.

Net income rose almost 24 percent to $32.6 million or 26 cents a share.

The Nashville-based prison operator, which houses inmates for federal and state authorities, said federal revenues rose 16 percent on the quarter.

State business also rose due in large part to housing inmates for the states of Colorado, Wyoming and California.

Comment from Explora: Many of who were detainees of ICE...
$$$$ Cha-Ching $$$$
many more to come and more $$$$ Cha-Ching $$$$

Just 'Hide and Watch!'

I still don't get your point.

Since I am

quote:

...

challenged this is mostly in response to what Hudson wrote.

Lot of stuff here. With the TIN issues my plan seems to work pretty good. If the number doesn't check out, no pay. It motivates people quickly.

About the analogy. I think from experience when the costs go up it will be passed on to the consumer. The people will still need their lawns cut and most will pay the extra $20.00 a month to do it. There is some validity to the argument that people who were self employed will have a hard time stepping backwards and working for someone else. But the same numbers of lawns and bushes will still need tending. The only difference is Paul will do it for more than Pablo did. (No racial intent here magoo). If not enough people are willing to pay Paul the extra $20.00 then he will probably do something else. But the majority will still survive.

Yes there is the issue of legal spirit versus letter when it comes to many issues. Which ever side your on your going to use the argument that best fits your desires. People who want a waiver will use 'spirit' and those that want them bounced will side with 'letter'. There will always be slugs and do gooders in every form of endeavor. With this the principle is the illegals are normally paid less which drives down the standard of living for those that are legal. I know the argument of the quality of work may be weak but I've seen it. For those that would argue to allow it, would you still if your job were the one being underbid by someone who isn't supposed to be here in the first place?


I'm quite aware that everyone at one point or another in our lives has violated some law. Employers and employees are usually guilty of something. The big difference is most people will do something perhaps once or twice until their conscience bothers them, then they'll stop. For a business to continually hurt the economy by hiring illegals and then using every trick to evade detection is wrong. Doesn't matter if they are the best at what ever it is they do. The letter and spirit meet here because the spirit is there to protect the people who should have the job but don't.


It is ultimately my responsibility to make sure the things were done legally but my defense is this. I did give him free reign but it is obviously assumed to be within legal limitations. Just as if you were hired to deliver pizza the assumption is you will drive within the speed limit. If your caught doing otherwise your terminated. If the pizza shop knows it and allows you to continue then they are at fault. Same here. Manager was terminated as well as a few tenants tossed who were of questionable status as soon as I found out.

Your challenge is high level of testosterone in your body, davdah.
Try to balance it with your willpower.

It took me a long while to realise/comprehend things that didn't make much sense to me before.

Nature is supreme genius.
Everything in it happens for good (sometimes concealed from immediate reach of our vision, but still).

DAO it is.

testosterone? Ok, you got me, I'm lost. I would take that to mean being too aggressive?
Does it come across like that?

Why don't you take some martial arts classes, like kick-boxing, kung-fu or something ?
You may earn a black belt and feel a lot better

Bad to the Bone - Music Video

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IMO, Davdah is doing just fine, RatE. It is you who needs another outlet. Why do you feel like you need to respond to every post?

It's that special condition, read psychology (diagnostic manual) books, you will find out what it's called

quote:

Especially with this YouTube krap?

Thank you for your compliment

Anymore comments?

Not really into that sort of thing. My fiancee has a black belt in tae kwon doe (sorry if I misspelled it). She could probably teach me. But I can do without the bruises. (lol)

Special condition? Ok, now I am curious. Don't have the time to read the psych manual. Even if I did wouldn't be able to make heads or tails out of it being it isn't my forte.

So, what is it?

quote:

Special condition? Ok, now I am curious. Don't have the time to read the psych manual. Even if I did wouldn't be able to make heads or tails out of it being it isn't my forte.

So, what is it?

I don't think you want RatE to answer this, davdah. Better left unsaid.

quote:

Special condition? Ok, now I am curious. Don't have the time to read the psych manual. Even if I did wouldn't be able to make heads or tails out of it being it isn't my forte.

So, what is it?

Next time, davdah (BTW, it isn't all that hard to browse through those manuals)

Apparently we are in the same boat with ProudUSC

quote:

ProudUSC:
Why do you feel like you need to respond to every post?

I can take it. I've been called so many things, goods & bad, it will probably be something I've already heard. No reprisals will be given for it.

I'm sure I could read the manual but what would it be I am looking for?