ILLEGAL-WORKER CRACKDOWN COMING EMPLOYERS WON'T BE ABLE TO IGNORE 'NO-MATCH' LETTERS
By Hernan Rozemberg San Antonio Express-News Tucson, Arizona | Published: 08.04.2007
The Department of Homeland Security will unveil a new policy next week making employers responsible for knowing their employees' immigration status.
The department argued that for too long U.S. employers have been able to shrug off the consequences of hiring illegal workers.
The new policy will help Homeland Security prosecute employers who have been notified by the Social Security Administration that employees on the payroll don't show up on Social Security rolls.
"There's going to be no more excuses for employers who have blatantly violated the laws and sought to game the system," said Russ Knocke, the department's press secretary.
The Social Security Administration sends out "no-match" letters when workers' Social Security numbers don't line up with the agency's records.
The policy, in practice since 1979, was created to assist the Internal Revenue Service in tax collection. The cause for the discrepancy can range from people getting married or divorced to clerical errors, but it's widely accepted that most cases involve illegal workers.
Under the new policy, Homeland Security will be able to seek the no-match information from employers already being investigated by the agency.
If employers get Social Security letters or a notification from Homeland Security, the managers will have to prove they tried to solve the problem. That includes showing they fired workers who failed to comply.
"The regulation will make it perfectly clear what needs to happen for employers to show they're following the law," Knocke said. "They will have a paper trail showing they acted in good faith."
The government will go after employers who received the letters but failed to resolve the problem within two months. Companies found in violation will face fines of $250 to $10,000 per violation.
Various trade groups, representing industries including restaurants, landscaping and agriculture, have opposed the federal government's move, speaking apocalyptically of the expected economic hit.
The change is not a new law. It's tweaking existing tax policy to clarify what employers must do when they're notified that their payrolls show workers whose identities don't match information listed by the government.
The modifications were proposed a year ago but were shelved as leaders in Washington launched an ill-fated quest to overhaul the entire immigration system.
"For us, this is not very ****. It's about wage reporting," said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman for Social Security, noting that an average of 140,000 letters are dispatched each year.
Not firing workers who fail to produce documentation of their immigration status also would be grounds for investigation.
It will be left up to employers to call the government's bluff or to see if "we're about to witness the dawn of a new era of immigration enforcement," said Demetrios Papademetriou, president of the Migration Policy Institute, a Washington-based think tank.
If Homeland Security is serious, it should prepare to ask Congress for the increased funding it will need to enforce the new regulations, Papademetriou said.
This isn't new. They have been sending out letters and issuing fines now for years.
In my business most of the workers we never see. They sign up under a business name and provide their tax id and it isn't til the end of the year when we get the notice we find out something is wrong. By then the person is long gone. If they really want to ratchet things down it should be set up where the tax id or ssn must be verified prior to hiring.
Vote Republican and this country will still be worth sneaking into.
Posts: 4977 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
[QUOTE]Originally posted by davdah: This isn't new. They have been sending out letters and issuing fines now for years. [QUOTE]
davdah, You're right, it's not new but it might be more enforced in the future. Fines haven't been near as common as no-match letters. Are you saying the fines issued were in regard to no-match letters? I've known of no fines, only letters. Maybe the fines you speak of were pertaining to specific cases.
explora Power Member Posted August 05, 2007 09:51 PM
The change is not a new law. It's tweaking existing tax policy to clarify what employers must do when they're notified that their payrolls show workers whose identities don't match information listed by the government.
The modifications were proposed a year ago but were shelved as leaders in Washington launched an ill-fated quest to overhaul the entire immigration system.
"For us, this is not very ****. It's about wage reporting," said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman for Social Security, noting that an average of 140,000 letters are dispatched each year.
Not firing workers who fail to produce documentation of their immigration status also would be grounds for investigation.
davdah Frequent Member
In my business most of the workers we never see. They sign up under a business name and provide their tax id and it isn't til the end of the year when we get the notice we find out something is wrong. By then the person is long gone.
davdah, if they provide a tax id number, why isn't it checked out? Why would a company wait until a notice arrives? That's the same as waiting on a no-match social security letter. (Which until recently didn't have to be kept on file.)
The worker can maintain employment because nobody really wants to check it out. Some employees will change jobs before any company has to send in their quarterly statement. I've known Anglo's that do the same thing for particular personal reasons.
At this point, it seems an employee will have a chance to work until that letter is received. Yes, you're right, social security cards would have to be checked. But hey, by not having to check them, employees can be recycled after the letters come. It's just a shame the employee will have to change companies in response to the letter. But he/she can go to another and work until the letter comes.
We just can't have our economy shut down totally. DHS knows what time it is. Social Security will still receive money.
These new guidelines will still allow illegals to work until the scarlet letter arrives, generally 6-7 months at least, later depending on when employee hired in. For others having been consistently employed, well, it's coming, sad to say. As the letter said, we'll see to what extent it's enforced.
They do issue fines if it appears due diligance wasn't done to get accurate info from the employee or in our case contractors. Quite often it could be something as simple as the name being misspelled or the contractor not using the exact name they used to get the tax id to being with.
The first time this happened was about 3 years ago and the notice was about tax id's from two years prior. With what we do the tax id's are not furnished to the IRS until the end of the year reporting of 1099s. The vast majority were just typographical errors but there were a few actual bogus numbers. The IRS just wanted something from us showing we received documentation from the person or company alleging what their number was. Since then when I receive those notices I lock down their pay to force them to either give a good number or dissapear.
I was told recently there is a phone number to call to verify numbers through the IRS. Its been out for a while but I never knew it existed. One of those things that slip through the cracks when your running a business.
Vote Republican and this country will still be worth sneaking into.
Posts: 4977 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Originally posted by davdah: They do issue fines if it appears due diligance wasn't done to get accurate info from the employee or in our case contractors. Quite often it could be something as simple as the name being misspelled or the contractor not using the exact name they used to get the tax id to being with.
The first time this happened was about 3 years ago and the notice was about tax id's from two years prior. With what we do the tax id's are not furnished to the IRS until the end of the year reporting of 1099s. The vast majority were just typographical errors but there were a few actual bogus numbers. The IRS just wanted something from us showing we received documentation from the person or company alleging what their number was. Since then when I receive those notices I lock down their pay to force them to either give a good number or dissapear.
I was told recently there is a phone number to call to verify numbers through the IRS. Its been out for a while but I never knew it existed. One of those things that slip through the cracks when your running a business.
Davdah, You are talking about the CAWR program where the IRS will match the tax id numbers of the forms you submitted to the IRS. Common myth among the anti-illegal crowd is that it would prevent undocumented workers from working. That is not what the program has been designed to do since the 1950's.
The number you are talking about and the TIN verification program is recent. IRS started the program in 2003. It is basically a pilot program where participation is voluntary. Only certain businesses may be required to use the program. See Publication 2108 at the IRS Web Site for more details.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
Voluntary? They didn't tell me that. They said if I couldn't produce the documentation to prove we received the numbers I gave them it would cost me. I guess its like the idea that the entire tax system is voluntary.(lol)
I get what you mean. It would be better and they will probably soon require numbers be verified prior to work. I'm doing it now, calling the numbers in to check them. Funny thing was, most of the fake ones we got were not from foreigners. People here being tax cheats.
Vote Republican and this country will still be worth sneaking into.
Posts: 4977 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Extent of crackdown will ultimately depend on funds allocated for that purpose.
quote:
explora: We just can't have our economy shut down totally. DHS knows what time it is. Social Security will still receive money.
DHS knows better than you and I what it's doing.
IMHO, economy wouldn't be shut down even if 12 million aliens were removed tomorrow. (It's impossible to remove 12 million people overnight, but let's just imagine, hypothetically, that they were). I would see entirely different effect of it:
1. Q: Who relies on illegal immigrants most of all (outside of CA agjobs?) A: Small business owners (construction, lawn care, ethnic cousins and etc.)
2. Q: What happens when those 'cheap laborers' disappear?
A: The business owner forced to either:
a) Raise the wages to hire labor from existing pool or
b) Close the business (If raising wages eliminates profit or diminishes it beyond acceptable ratio of cost vs. profit).
Some (the strongest) will go the route a) and the others will follow b)
3. Q: What will happen to those SB owners who are forced to follow route b) ?
A: They will look for jobs. Since the demand for those services won't disappear, other, larger , more effective businesses will take the niche (large volume businesses can afford to pay what it takes to hire + benefits, while making a profit). And that's where those on route b) could look for jobs in future.
Summary: The whole system would be more effective, better organised than it is now.
Economy would only gain: more skilled, better paid workers would remain on labor pool while the enterprises would be run by business owners who are strong, efficient enough to (afford)hire what is left in the labor market and make profit too.
No matter how you look at it, but illegal worker crackdown makes sense.
Good analogy. There are some other side benefits to not hiring illegals. One being the quality and attitude towards the work done. If you hire an (known or unknown) illegal to do some construction work will they care about the quality of work, adhesian to building and standards codes. They don't. I can attest to that fact personally. Unknown to me a prior property manager had a habit of hiring illegals to do work on my buildings. It may cost more to hire John licensed contractor versus Juan but at least your ceiling won't cave in six months later.
Vote Republican and this country will still be worth sneaking into.
Posts: 4977 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Good analogy. There are some other side benefits to not hiring illegals. One being the quality and attitude towards the work done. If you hire an (known or unknown) illegal to do some construction work will they care about the quality of work, adhesian to building and standards codes. They don't. I can attest to that fact personally. Unknown to me a prior property manager had a habit of hiring illegals to do work on my buildings. It may cost more to hire John licensed contractor versus Juan but at least your ceiling won't cave in six months later.
Davdah - let's call all illegals Juan, all Jews Himey, and all Italians Guido.
And you claim that their attitude towards work done is inferior. I have two friends who run small construction companies and they swear by the work ethic of these hard working people.
Of course it is not surprising that RationE agrees with such xenophobic generalizations and reasoning as he has done in previous posts.
Here in the US money and nothing but Money talks. If an employer had a chance to pay less an immigrant, he wouldn`t think a minute to do it. Also since the immigration bill hasn`t been solved the number of illigal immigrants will double by the time the congress will try to reduscuss this issue again. Finally, Illigal immigrants are their own bosses and not waiting for any recruiters.
Originally posted by davdah: Good analogy. There are some other side benefits to not hiring illegals. One being the quality and attitude towards the work done. If you hire an (known or unknown) illegal to do some construction work will they care about the quality of work, adhesian to building and standards codes. They don't. I can attest to that fact personally. Unknown to me a prior property manager had a habit of hiring illegals to do work on my buildings. It may cost more to hire John licensed contractor versus Juan but at least your ceiling won't cave in six months later.
davdah, Do you realize that a lot of contractors will instruct employees to do the work as they want it done whether it is up to par or not?
I can attest to this with Anglos. I see it all the time where installation is made and they take short cuts. Half the time it's the Anglo not caring, just wanting a paycheck. The other half if the supervision demanding it. Whether legal or illegal an employee is ultimately going to do as told or he'll be given a lay-off or firing. It usually ends up being re-done and there's generally time for it within the scope of the completion date.
So, don't blame the illegals although I'm quite sure there's many that don't care. But, I've seen the best work done and at a faster pace by illegals vs U.S.C. The U.S.C. doesn't work at a steady pace and spends more time b.s.ing.
The Anglo guys will no longer make snide remarks about Hispanics anymore in front of co-workers or supervision. Over the past few years they've begun to keep their mouths shut because they're seeing the Anglo supervision desire to have Hispanics on their crews because they're better workers. If the Anglo wants to be on a specific crew he now knows not to demean the Hispanics because he sees that the supervision really likes their work ethic.
Also, their attitude is much better because they work with their hands and not their mouths. They don't complain throughout an entire shift, they work steadily and give 101%, and the work gets done.
I'd rather work around an Hispanic over most Anglos. It's much more uplifting because of not hearing complaints. It makes a difference in everybody elses attitudes during a work shift.
People are the same. Same needs, wants and desires. And there are slugs among Hispanic workers as well.
And you didn't know the contractor was hiring illegals? That's what they all say to protect themselves and are protected if they didn't know. You knew what time it was, davdah. Come on now!
At any rate, my opinion is that DHS knows what time it is about the whole mess. They've got a plan that is to their benefit.
As I noted earlier (in one of my posts in July) DHS is led by very intelligent man. Those who underestimate him do so at the cost of overestimating their own intelligence.
Mr Magoo, I was only illustrating a point. Those events did take place and was using the names to merely state the obvious.
You support the breaking of federal laws forbidding such practices? It is hard to compare work ethics when I'm sure your friends probably never had any legal people to compare them to. Probably too cheap to hire any. That is why their construction companies will stay small. Once the new rules are in place will evaporate into nonexistance.
Mikemezioa Money talks, you know what walks. As far as what pay immigrants receive they can not by law be paid less than a comparable USC. Assuming they are legal. If not, well, you get what you pay for. The other universal truth.
Explora, I really didn't know what was going on until much later. The apartment buildings are in Texas and I was in CA. I gave the property manager free reign to do what was needed. Once I did find out that all changed. The next job which was a foundation leveling I gave the warning to the contractor not to have any you know whats on the job site. He didn't beleive me. Guess what happened. I had the green shirts on the job site within hours. The contractor I'm sure got nailed with a big fine. The job got done, correctly I might add.
Vote Republican and this country will still be worth sneaking into.
Posts: 4977 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Originally posted by davdah: Mr Magoo, I was only illustrating a point. Those events did take place and was using the names to merely state the obvious.
You support the breaking of federal laws forbidding such practices? It is hard to compare work ethics when I'm sure your friends probably never had any legal people to compare them to. Probably too cheap to hire any. That is why their construction companies will stay small. Once the new rules are in place will evaporate into nonexistance.
Money talks, you know what walks. As far as what pay immigrants receive they can not by law be paid less than a comparable USC. Assuming they are legal. If not, well, you get what you pay for. The other universal truth.
My name isn't Mr. Magoo but you can call me Low I. Queue if you so wish!
I believe what you said did occur. Somebody did some building for you? I had no problem with the names being changed to protect the innocent.
Exuse me, I'm not talking about small businesses such as putting up walls.
LOL!!!!! These aren't small companies!!!!! Ha!!! And yes, they pay a lot of money. The ones that got less were the Filipinos according to the contract that 'their' contractor gave them. That probably included the motel, plane fair, etc. The Filipinos were legal.
As far as illegals. They're working right next to the legal U.S.C. for the same wage and it's a good. Just a couple dollars lower than other sites and less per diem. But you have workers that don't want to travel to the other sites in-state or out so they'll elect to take this pay scale.
davdah, my point is that the company knew they weren't going to raise the wage comparatively (they did recently by $1 but they did it because it's toward the end of the job and they don't want the gypsies to leave for another) so they planned what they did ahead of time (therefore they knew what time it was going to be) and any company can do this. Again, these are by no means 'small' companies. lol.
Also, DHS isn't making it mandatory for the employers to check the cards. All they have to do is wait until the letter comes and they'll advise the employee and he/she will move on to another company...
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