Originally posted by iperson: I am sorry Hudson, I like you, you are an intelligent smart guy who knows a lot. And I don't know how you just don't see it.
Almost any country can be suspected of candidly developing WMD but is it a reason to invade it under a suspicion? The WMD were not found. The country was invaded under a suspicion, against international opinion against it. Only buddy Blair agreed, and maybe Poland. As far as our contribution to the war, it is dictated by the tough political situation in Europe, now and in the history. We've always been sandwitched between the western Germany/England/France and eastern Russia. Always in the way of conflict, for over thousand years. We've waged hundreds and hundreds of all kinds of wars and fought to preserve our independance. For 123 years Poland wasn't on the map of Europe, taken apart between three countries. We know what fighting for independance means. We know the value of freedom. And we've always stood behind America in its War of Independance. We've sent our generals to fight in your country and our troops. Names like Kosciuszko or Pulaski should ring the bell for you. Right now the situation is no different. Although we're in the EU, the old conflicts exist. Russia is majorly pissed off because we no longer belong to the Soviet block and they let us know that. Russia is trying to cut off our gas supply because they know we're basically dependant on Russian gas. There is a lot of nuances in politics going on all the time with Putin belittling the importance of Poland as a full memmber of EU. Germany again is plotting to bypass Poland with the gas pipes running through the Baltic Sea, instead of building it through Poland, which would be a less costly and easier solution. But Russia doesn't want to give Poland its cut. One of a very popular French candidates for the president is promising an alliance with Poland. Hello, history. The French remember it well. Germany and Russia, two bullies in Europe, our French ally and the cool isolated Britain that pretends it doesnt belong to Europe and shouldn't be concerned with the European problems. Out of this mess, all we have left is the United States, with whom we've always had good relations. We were always welcome in the US in the face of all the problems. President Reagan supported the Solidarnosc in 1981 when we were on the brink of the Third World War. Currently, there are about 10 million or more of Polish decent people in the country. So there's your little history of why Poland supports the US in the war. But I don't agree with it out of principle. War is a primitive solution, not good eno ugh for advancing evolving humanity.
To really answer your question, I would say this: if any other nation except USA had invaded Iraq based on the same presumptions, you would not have the same large anti-war crowd conversing. You would also have people protesting the US for not doing anything in the first place? If Clinton invaded in 1998, the same arguments that the Democrats are now giving will be used by the Republican party. So, what has changed.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
I must just add a little bit to what Iperson said. The same mess does not apply only to Poland – it does to my home country (Czech Republic) too. We used to have similar troubles, we used to conduct the majority of Europe (the Holy Roman Empire – in 14th century, Karel IV.), we had also a Polish king (Vladislav Jagelonsky – 16th century) and we also were at certain point under Austria-Hungarian Empire (1620-1918); so we had to fight for our freedom hard. And same as Poland we WERE TRADED IN at the Jalta conference in 1943; Mr. Churchill was too afraid of Soviet influence to the Mediterranean so he had chosen Greece and Turkey to be in “western†block instead of Czechoslovakia and Poland (this deal is not well known; I found it out only because I studied diplomacy at the university). It did not matter we were allies with GB and USA, we were left to Russians; no questions asked. Those ones destroyed my country (I do believe Poland too), destroyed flourishing economy, they did sack many resources completely (for instance uranium in the 50’) and changed peoples’ attitude by that extend that they forgot, how to conduct themselves in a free way – and much more. Yes, Iperson and I may tease each other but I do believe we have much in common. But – as Iperson said – it was not enough. After we regained our independence and finally Central Europe was democratic, nobody perceived us as war victims and now we are not even considered us as a full member of EU! Well, nice, everybody helped Germany with war damages (this is beautiful – somebody starts the war, kills millions of people and gets money at the end of the day) –bus nobody helped us (or maybe just a little). Before II.W.W. our economy was much better compared with Germany and now? This is just ridiculous and not just. And now Russia also intervenes. This is a just recent event (from this week) – we were asked by the government of the USA to have a US radio base to locate ballistic missiles on our territory. But the Russians tried to thread us not to do so! They are still trying to tell us what to do … And as for Iraq; in my book there are institutions like OSN (United Nations) who should take care of it; not one sole country – no matter which country it is.
And same as Poland we WERE TRADED IN at the Jalta conference in 1943; Mr. Churchill was too afraid of Soviet influence to the Mediterranean so he had chosen Greece and Turkey to be in “western†block instead of Czechoslovakia and Poland (this deal is not well known; I found it out only because I studied diplomacy at the university).
Yup. Great post Honey. We do have a lot in common. Tell me my neighbor why in the history of Europe we never ever had ONE single war with each other? Why we could live peacefully next to each other and never fight? We'd never fight with you. Nor wanted to fight with anyone else, Russians or Germans.
We were both traded in, handed on a silver platter in Yalta and it hurt us big time. The results of which we feel today. Our country's economy in the 20's and 30's was thriving. If you saw pictures of Warsaw pre-war. Nothing of it remains today. Totally destroyed to bits and pieces. The beautiful old solid architecture all gone. You were lucky the Chech that Praque was saved and untouched. The city is like central Europe's Paris, so beautiful. And Warsaw was like that too. Today it's a total disaster. I won't go there here.
But can you imagine the disappointment after all these years of fighting for Your and Our Freedom and be betrayed by the West? And now finally we're in Europe. Many Polish people say that we were always in Europe, obviously not so according to GB and the US.
Well, I do not know why we never fought each other ... I my mind we never desired so. I think we both had nice countries; we took care of them and never tried to conduct anyone else’s lives ... Why should we do that? However I think that the one who has a lot wants more. Russia or other countries are huge but apparently not big enough. The one who was fed well can always say he could have been fed better.
I know, Warsaw used to be a beautiful city and it is a great pity what happened there. I saw many pictures from before the II.W.W. and I do understand your anger. Maybe Prague was saved more (there were minor historical damages too however) because the Czechs were actually already sold even before the II.W.W. - in Munchen 30.9.1938 where GB and France gave the Sudetenland to Germany leaving us completely defenseless (all fortifications were in this area). So we were swallowed all by Nazis even before the II.W.W. started (this happened 15.3.1939). So there were not many fights actually – only at the end of the war. But again – this may be interesting – Prague was the last capital city librated in Europe. US army was sitting in Plzen (Pilsner – some 80 km away from Prague) for about a week and they could not go forward to help fighting Prague because of Yalta treaty. Prague had to be librated by Soviet army; that was the part of the deal.
And yes, I am also mad that GB and US do not consider Poland and Czech Republic to be a part of Europe now. Personally I am totally allergic when they say we are in Eastern Europe (because we are not) and also that they locate us to Russia ... morons.
Personally I am totally allergic when they say we are in Eastern Europe (because we are not) and also that they locate us to Russia ... morons.
I know! I was stunned when I came to this country and when people asked me where I was from they thought Poland was a Russian republic. D.amn it! For heaven's sake! We have NOTHING, ZIP, ZERO in common with Russia.
Well, I know you Chech's were annexed. I am curious, I just want to know, because it's always been unanswered to me- why is it that you didn't fight back? What do your people are saying on that topic? I am sure there was a heated discussion on whether you should have fought back or not.
In my view, I think you were just surprised the Germans simply walked in your country as if that was a nice neighborly visit. By 1939, Poland knew about the possible "annexation" because of Enigma, the secret code machine invented by the Polish enginneers. The only one that succeeded to crack the german code system. By the way, did you know that we basically gave it to the British to track German communications when the war started? And you know what else? We asked them to give us the credit for it and they never did... The truth is coming out only now after the Soviet era when we revisit the history and actually relearn it. It was so screwed up the Russian propaganda in basically Soviet pseudo government in Poland. There's so much coming out now, that it's astounding for me to hear about all the polish church bishops and priests collaborating with the Secret Service. I don't know if you heard lately about the Warsaw archbishop scandal. I had no idea about what really was going on because as you know the national tv news were sold and putting out spin only, not the truth.
Anyway, yeah, we're not Russians- for all American readers, and we never were and never will.
Originally posted by macyuhoo: While the European barbarians who arrived in this great country America were still using their hands eating raw meats, the Chinese were already using chopsticks with hot tea. And your ancerstors were Barbarians, Someone.
I assume you were implying that they were civilized and intelligent, but what sane person uses chopsticks with tea?
Originally posted by macyuhoo: While the European barbarians who arrived in this great country America were still using their hands eating raw meats, the Chinese were already using chopsticks with hot tea. And your ancerstors were Barbarians, Someone.
Well I do not know about eating habits in the past but all what I can say the way Americans eat right now is funny - they just cut the food, put the knife away and then they take the fork in their right hand and eat! This seems to be so funny, really! From the standard worldwide table manners point of view! And just by the way – Germans during the II.W.W. by the eating manners did reveal somebody was an American refugee. Because Americans did not know how to eat properly
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Honey,
Personally I am totally allergic when they say we are in Eastern Europe (because we are not) and also that they locate us to Russia ... morons.
I know! I was stunned when I came to this country and when people asked me where I was from they thought Poland was a Russian republic. D.amn it! For heaven's sake! We have NOTHING, ZIP, ZERO in common with Russia.
Well, I know you Chech's were annexed. I am curious, I just want to know, because it's always been unanswered to me- why is it that you didn't fight back? What do your people are saying on that topic? I am sure there was a heated discussion on whether you should have fought back or not.
In my view, I think you were just surprised the Germans simply walked in your country as if that was a nice neighborly visit. By 1939, Poland knew about the possible "annexation" because of Enigma, the secret code machine invented by the Polish enginneers. The only one that succeeded to crack the german code system. By the way, did you know that we basically gave it to the British to track German communications when the war started? And you know what else? We asked them to give us the credit for it and they never did... The truth is coming out only now after the Soviet era when we revisit the history and actually relearn it. It was so screwed up the Russian propaganda in basically Soviet pseudo government in Poland. There's so much coming out now, that it's astounding for me to hear about all the polish church bishops and priests collaborating with the Secret Service. I don't know if you heard lately about the Warsaw archbishop scandal. I had no idea about what really was going on because as you know the national tv news were sold and putting out spin only, not the truth.
Anyway, yeah, we're not Russians- for all American readers, and we never were and never will.
Well, Iperson, as for the question why the Czech nation did not fight back – honestly, this question is unanswered for me too and probably will be unanswered untill the rest of my days. I just do not know. This is one of the ‘skeletons in the closet’ Czech nation has, I think. I know that everybody was really upset by this occupation, everybody had the most honest intentions to fight (as my parents told me) but – practically – there was no sense of doing so either. We were just sold by the West; nobody would come to help us, everybody thought that Hitler would be satisfied by this sacrifice at the moment and that he would leave the rest of the Europe alone = it was a BIG mistake, but … I think my nation did OK, fighting would mean a complete destruction for us anyways – we just were too weak at the time. Maybe it is already in our nature – pretend you cooperate but in fact you do not. You resist and you fight back the different way and so we did (assassination of Haydrich in 1942 etc. ….). Hell yes, those affairs about the church officials are huge – and they happen not only in Poland, they happen in Czech Republic too. I cannot imagine how a priest could reveal a holly secret of confession to the communists; now, after all these years, I feel so confused about this. But probably we just have to record it for ourselves as a terrible fact; we have no other choice now. Let’s think positive, let’s think the future is going to be better. And because either Poland or either Czech Republic we both have a great potential, we will show these ‘so called’ friends from the ‘West’ we can overcome them soon. And we will, I am sure of it. They may think they are great and be calm and sleepy – but one day they will just wake up and see a different story. Those ‘strange countries’ from ‘the east of Europe’ were working so hard for such a long time that now they actually did overgrow them. This day will come, be sure of it. Maybe not for us, maybe not for our kids but it will; this is a logical certainty. Just to give some proof here; I do not know about successful Polish people here in US but I know about the Czech ones: Ivana Trump, Misa Bartonova, Dominik Hasek, Jaromir Jagr (both ice-hockey), Ivan Lendl, Martina Navratilova (both tennis), Milos Forman (Oscar winner director) and many more … all these people give us a reason to be proud of our home countries.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Honey,
once again, for the learning impaired, if your respective countries are so great, then why are you two living in AMerica? Why not just return to your land of milk and honey (and cabbage)?
I agree with you on that the West wouldn't do anything to help and they didn't do anything in September 1939. We were fighting totally alone for the whole month and the West was just watching. I think they thought we'd give up or lose, like we did, within a short period of time and then there'd be peace. But I also think that the Chech annexation was easily swollowed just like Austria. But when it came to Poland, that was a definite red flag that Germany was not going to stop right there and then. It was obvious the plans were to conquer Europe and make it one big Germany. France and Great Britain felt threatened and so did Russia eventually, despite the Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty. Which was a lie of course.
But you know all this. So for your country not to fight was on one hand a smart move but also a bad one, knowing Hitler's plans. But I am sure you were leading the gorilla warfare throughout the war just like us. You were lucky your country didn't suffer so much. Ours was pretty much all ruined by both aggressors, German and Russians. Warsaw was ruined primarily because of the 1944 Warsaw uprising. In Polish history there were three big uprisings during the hundred year occupation, and the Warsaw uprising is called the Forth Uprising. I am really proud of my country and those who fought in Warsaw. This was a battle to fight till death, no matter what. Many young people went into it knowing that more than certainly they would die. Very heroic fight. And then throughout the Soviet Poland after the war, all these people who survived the Uprising, were imprisoned and tortured by Soviets. Especially those that belonged to AK (Armia Krajowa)- the Country's Army. Also those fighting in other countries under General Anders, all of them were viewed as enemies of Poland. The Soviets wanted to kill off the very best, the intelligent, the educated, the brave, the potential leaders. Thousands of Polish army officers were killed in Katyn and buried in the middle of a forest in one big grave, unmarked. You know about that right? Russia denies Katyn to this day. According to them it either never happened or it was Germans who did it. That was the mantra in the Communist era. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Let’s think positive, let’s think the future is going to be better. And because either Poland or either Czech Republic we both have a great potential, we will show these ‘so called’ friends from the ‘West’ we can overcome them soon. And we will, I am sure of it. They may think they are great and be calm and sleepy – but one day they will just wake up and see a different story. Those ‘strange countries’ from ‘the east of Europe’ were working so hard for such a long time that now they actually did overgrow them. This day will come, be sure of it. Maybe not for us, maybe not for our kids but it will; this is a logical certainty. Just to give some proof here; I do not know about successful Polish people here in US but I know about the Czech ones: Ivana Trump, Misa Bartonova, Dominik Hasek, Jaromir Jagr (both ice-hockey), Ivan Lendl, Martina Navratilova (both tennis), Milos Forman (Oscar winner director) and many more … all these people give us a reason to be proud of our home countries.
You betya! We're going to come out of this history mess as winners. I can envision the future and I believe in our country. We are all hardworking smart people. There are already so many changes taking place that each time I go back home, I can barely recognize the place anymore.
I've heard about Ivan Lendl, and Martina Navratilova (she was great back in the eighties and nineties I think). Milos Forman, a great film director (One Flew Over Cuckoo's Nest, Amadeus, among others). I didn't know Ivana Trump was Chech. Ivanka Trump, her daughter, is something. I'm a fan of "Apprentice".
I'm not sure I know about successful Polish people in the US, but overall, you could count Roman Polanski, who lives in France right now, twice Oscar winner. I met him in Germany and talked to him for a few minutes. We were staying in the same hotel. That was while he was working on the Pianist. Got his autograph although I think I offended him. But the next day he smiled at me from across the restaurant...
Well, other people, famous Poles, would include, going back in history, Kopernik- who stopped the Sun and moved the Earth , Fryderyk Chopin, Maria Sklodowska- Curie, twice a Nobel Prize winner, Czeslaw Milosz, a Nobel Prize winner for the "Capitve Mind", Lech Walesa, and of course our dear John Paul II... As for the Sports, I am sure you've heard of Adam Maylsz, beating all the records in ski jumping for the past few years.
What is this, the bigotry forum? I'm sure everyone can agree that Europeans are superior, even if they are living in the US and having to put up with us ignorant Americans. Europeans are so superior that they understand how to get us over there to die for them when they have a problem with other Europeans who would enslave them. Get a clue, morons. We are in Iraq because we are sick of the Islamist world domination bull****, and needed a flat, open place to kill them off. WMD is not even an issue in Iraq. Never was. Osama, not an issue in Iraq. Never was. The medieval attitude of the Middle East Islamist is the issue. Always was. It's the issue in Europe, too, but Europe will need the US to help them solve it, as always. We're just keeping in shape in Iraq, because we will have to go to Germany, Bulgaria, France, Scandanavia, eventually to save your precious superior societies so that you can go on being superior. Now we are realizing that urban warfare is something se have to be good at, even though we didn't give it enough attention at first. We are now preparing to defend your European cities from within when you eventually come crying to us in 15 or 20 years. So, stop the ignorant bigotry and talk about something intelligent for a change.
Posts: 6 | Location: Chula Vista, CA | Registered: 12-11-2006
What is this, the bigotry forum? I'm sure everyone can agree that Europeans are superior, even if they are living in the US and having to put up with us ignorant Americans. Europeans are so superior that they understand how to get us over there to die for them when they have a problem with other Europeans who would enslave them. Get a clue, morons. We are in Iraq because we are sick of the Islamist world domination bull****, and needed a flat, open place to kill them off. WMD is not even an issue in Iraq. Never was. Osama, not an issue in Iraq. Never was. The medieval attitude of the Middle East Islamist is the issue. Always was. It's the issue in Europe, too, but Europe will need the US to help them solve it, as always. We're just keeping in shape in Iraq, because we will have to go to Germany, Bulgaria, France, Scandanavia, eventually to save your precious superior societies so that you can go on being superior. Now we are realizing that urban warfare is something se have to be good at, even though we didn't give it enough attention at first. We are now preparing to defend your European cities from within when you eventually come crying to us in 15 or 20 years. So, stop the ignorant bigotry and talk about something intelligent for a change.
But admit it- you just love saving the world, don't you? You love your military and going into the war and winning, so don't complain.
Add to del.icio.us
We're going to come out of this history mess as winners. I can envision the future and I believe in our country. We are all hardworking smart people. There are already so many changes taking place that each time I go back home, I can barely recognize the place anymore. 
