And if we are doing that ProudUSC, won't that be encouragement for illegals to keep on bringing their children here to reap the benefits?

Keep in mind that many immigrants fail in schiool not because of their immigration status but because of their race. We see Asians succeed more than whites regardless of their immigration status whereas inferior races do not succeed. So do not blame immigration laws for this.

Wow, inferior races huh? So based on the same argument, blacks rules sports and other races are simply inferior?
Jews owned the financial world simply because they're superior than other races as well?

Just amazing....

There are areas where each race is superior; intellectual, athletic, etc... Asians excel academically, negroes excel athletically, etc... It is not a correct assessment that "jews own the financial world". Not sure what that even means. I know that this "inconvenient" truth may offend some and may not be considered politically correct, but it is the truth no matter what. It is just a product of evolution and no judgment is made on anyone. A good book to read on this is Charles Darwin's "The Origin of The Species".

quote:

Originally posted by marmaduk:
And if we are doing that ProudUSC, won't that be encouragement for illegals to keep on bringing their children here to reap the benefits?

The children didn't do anything wrong, did they? Can you honestly say that you believe the kids who were brought here had a choice? So, why should they be penalized? No, I'm not advocating enticement for more illegals to come; but, until the US can secure their borders and enact some type of fair immigration legislation, the illegals are going to continue to come anyway. So, why punish the kids?

Isn't giving children of illegal immigrants an instate rate kind of similar to receiving stolen property. One person steals something and gives the benefit to someone else who had no right to it to begin with. In that it doesn't matter the good that may come from it, its still stolen to begin with. And is still a crime to receive.

Maybe we should let the kids who are from out of state or out of country paying the correct rates vote on that issue. Or better yet the ones who lost their seat in the class room because of this be the ones to decide if this is fair or not. Seems to me the people followig the rules should always be given first preference.

quote:

Originally posted by Darkforce:
Keep in mind that many immigrants fail in schiool not because of their immigration status but because of their race. We see Asians succeed more than whites regardless of their immigration status whereas inferior races do not succeed. So do not blame immigration laws for this.

That is a myth. Asians are not more likely to succeed than whites. Its all about culture and what is stressed as important in the home. The origin of the species also assumes the genetic makeup of an organism can somehow think independently of the organism itself. I don't think a single brain cell has been detected in a chromosome to date. That would be like a single brick in a house making the determination that in its next life it will become steel to better support the skyscraper it will be in.

quote:

Maybe we should let the kids who are from out of state or out of country paying the correct rates vote on that issue. Or better yet the ones who lost their seat in the class room because of this be the ones to decide if this is fair or not. Seems to me the people followig the rules should always be given first preference.

Are most kids paying for their own college these days, davdah? Geez, wish I would have known this about 3 years ago when my son decided to attend an out of state college - lol. At least now I know for the 2 younger sons!

Why is allowing these kids the opportunity to attend college at affordable rates like stealing? Are you saying it's because illegals aren't paying taxes. I know some aren't, but many are. Still, why wouldn't we want these kids (who aren't leaving the USA anytime soon) to further their education? Add to our talent pool? If they get a seat in front of an American, they probably earned it.

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:
The children didn't do anything wrong, did they? Can you honestly say that you believe the kids who were brought here had a choice? So, why should they be penalized? No, I'm not advocating enticement for more illegals to come; but, until the US can secure their borders and enact some type of fair immigration legislation, the illegals are going to continue to come anyway. So, why punish the kids?

If that's the case, then why punish the kids that not smart enough to enroll to college or why forced them to enter service in the US Military just so they can stay here? Where's the fairness in that? To be fair, might as well make a ruling that all children under 18 who came here illegally will be granted PR status regardless...... Of course, you probably don't want to see the chaos which'll erupt then?

If you're presenting this type of "amnesty" it will serve as another benefits for illegals to come in, regardless on how you intend it to be.

I support the Dream Act, but not without passing the CIR. Otherwise, this will just be another loophole to be taken advantage of.

quote:

If that's the case, then why punish the kids that not smart enough to enroll to college or why forced them to enter service in the US Military just so they can stay here?

Sorry - I don't understand your point??? Are you talking about US Citizen kids??? And, who is punishing them for not be college material? And who is forcing them into the US Military??? Last time I checked, our military is still a voluntary one and a person has to give consent to join.

IIRC, the current incarnation of the Dream Act requires those children granted conditional residentship status to either:
a) Attend college
b) Join US Armed forces

in order to qualify for the permanent resident and not having their temporary status revoked.

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:

quote:

Maybe we should let the kids who are from out of state or out of country paying the correct rates vote on that issue. Or better yet the ones who lost their seat in the class room because of this be the ones to decide if this is fair or not. Seems to me the people followig the rules should always be given first preference.

Are most kids paying for their own college these days, davdah? Geez, wish I would have known this about 3 years ago when my son decided to attend an out of state college - lol. At least now I know for the 2 younger sons!

Why is allowing these kids the opportunity to attend college at affordable rates like stealing? Are you saying it's because illegals aren't paying taxes. I know some aren't, but many are. Still, why wouldn't we want these kids (who aren't leaving the USA anytime soon) to further their education? Add to our talent pool? If they get a seat in front of an American, they probably earned it.

Does it matter if the kids or the parents are paying? Either way its legal and based on the premise of their status within the state. If your son were to lose his ability to attend because his seat was taken would you still be for it? Ask him. The premise is not tax based. Only on the issue they are receiving benefit for something that was based on an il gotten gain to begin with. If I rob a bank should my kids be allowed to keep what that money paid for? Of course not. Same applies to this. The parents are illegal. The kids should not be punished but at the same time not be granted special treatment which puts them in a class higher than those who did things legally. If at all it should be based on country of origin. If, and only if, all other legal applicants have had first preference.

Nothing stolen is ever earned. Regardless of how much effort the thief put forth to steal it.

quote:

The kids should not be punished but at the same time not be granted special treatment which puts them in a class higher than those who did things legally. If at all it should be based on country of origin. If, and only if, all other legal applicants have had first preference.

I can agree with this. I don't think they should be given preferential treatment, but they should have the opportunity to achieve a higher education if they so desire.

quote:

Originally posted by marmaduk:
IIRC, the current incarnation of the Dream Act requires those children granted conditional residentship status to either:
a) Attend college
b) Join US Armed forces

in order to qualify for the permanent resident and not having their temporary status revoked.

I see your point. There should be other options to make it fair. I am not a believer in forcing people into the military, so I must push back a little on this one. Thanks for 'opening' my eyes.

[QUOTE] From Wall Street Journal article posted 9/21/07 under IME topic by CollegeStudent:

About 750,000 illegal immigrants, ages 5 to 18, live in the U.S., according to the National Immigration Law Center, a Washington advocacy group. Each year, about 65,000 illegal immigrants graduate from high school. Because of their illegal status, these students don't qualify for federal-and-state grants and loans or work-study programs. Only one out of 20 undocumented high-school seniors ends up attending college.

The bill would give temporary residency for six years to high-school graduates who lived in the U.S. continuously for five years and arrived here by age 15. During these six years, youngsters who attended college for two years or served at least two years in the military would be eligible for citizenship.

Because the bill boasts bipartisan support, it has a chance of passing if its sponsors succeed in attaching it to the defense-authorization bill. Anti-illegal immigrant activists and some Republican lawmakers who deem the Dream Act to be tantamount to amnesty are mounting an aggressive campaign against it.

While education has been highlighted in past attempts to pass the act, its backers have been highlighting its military provision. In July, Mr. Durbin told the Senate, "It turns out that many in the Department of Defense believe, as I do, that the Dream Act is an important part of making certain we have talented young men and women ready to serve in our military."

Bill Carr, deputy undersecretary for military personnel policy, cited the Dream Act's role in addressing shortfalls in recruitment during a June telephone conference with representatives of veterans groups, according to the Defense Department's internal news service.

Mainstream Hispanic organizations and student groups continue to rally behind the Dream Act, which has been pushed since 2001. A few grass-roots groups have started to voice concern that the bill is being used as a recruitment tool. Joining the military would likely be a more realistic option for undocumented Hispanic youths than going to college, given that many have limited financial means.

"We began to see the danger when the Pentagon started to speak openly about how the Dream Act will help them," says Jorge Mariscal, professor of Chicano studies at University of California, San Diego. "It's a new tracking system to meet manpower needs at this time of extended occupation of Iraq."

"This bill amounts to an aggressive draft of Hispanics," says Fernando Suárez del Solar, director of the Guerrero Azteca Peace Project, an Escondido, Calif., organization that works with Hispanic youth to discourage them from enlisting in the military.[QUOTE]

Write to Miriam Jordan at miriam.jordan@wsj.com

Wow, so they want to be Americans but don't want to fight for her. No wonder we don't want this garbage in our country.

Hispanics are no good in combat anyway, as the Azteca Peace Project demonstrates, they are cowards and without honor.

Its like every other special interest group. "I want my rights but no responsibility."

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Its like every other special interest group. "I want my rights but no responsibility."

Oh really, so what is your special interest group?

The underlying sentiment in this argument is that one will reprobate special interest groups that they don't agree with and propagate the ones they do agree with.

quote:

Originally posted by davdah:
Does it matter if the kids or the parents are paying? Either way its legal and based on the premise of their status within the state. If your son were to lose his ability to attend because his seat was taken would you still be for it? Ask him. The premise is not tax based. Only on the issue they are receiving benefit for something that was based on an il gotten gain to begin with. If I rob a bank should my kids be allowed to keep what that money paid for? Of course not. Same applies to this. The parents are illegal. The kids should not be punished but at the same time not be granted special treatment which puts them in a class higher than those who did things legally. If at all it should be based on country of origin. If, and only if, all other legal applicants have had first preference.

Nothing stolen is ever earned. Regardless of how much effort the thief put forth to steal it.

But what is being stolen? Most children of illegal parents are there because of circumstances beyond their control. Similarly, do you want to charge someone a crime while at the same time being coerced in committing that crime? Or how about you, as the business owner being charged with the same crime that one of your employees committed? That is the argument you are making, Davdah, but all I did was apply that same logic to circumstances a little more close to home.

Although education has its limits like any other resource, the group that has the most impact are the nontraditional students. Colleges and universities have made committments in allowing more the nontraditional students into the classroom, not only as transfers, but as incoming freshman. No longer is the cultural norm of high school, 4 years college, and maybe 2 yeas masters before entering the workplace. With nontraditional students having an advantage over young incoming freshman students as a whole, I wonder who will the college select based on the same facts and circumstances.

The point is that it is up to the individual, through their work, not their circumstances, that should be allowed to enter college. Those who are in the top 10% or even the top 20% od their high school clase, irregardless of citizenship or resident status, should have more benefits than a young person who uses the sucess of their parents so they can get into college. We already live in a quasi class system with materialism ruling the day, not ethical standards that the society usually reflects on on certain days of the year.

"Men like to fight, and if they don't they're not real men."

"Americans love to fight - traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle."

George S. Patton; General of