quote:

As far as public option- it's no rocket science WHY the public voted for Obama. Didn't he promise universal healthcare? That's another word for public option for you.
Amazing how straight facts and common sense wisdom needs to be repeated over and over again here.

Amazing how some don't get it. People voted for bama out of fear. He promised a bunch of krap people panicked over losing. That's why he won. The down side is truth. He can't deliver. Even his own are voting a little closer to reality. They know. And so goes this little experiment down the toilet.

How about some straight facts. Not bill moron style sound bites. SOM's point is very valid. We don't have enough Docs. We need more but I disagree with importing them. We outsource too much as it is. Get rid of malpractice and double the number of primary care and specialist practitioners. Make it easier for the pharmaceuticals to work their magic. Deregulation and the free market will fix this.

quote:

Originally posted by iperson:
You must have taken those figures our of your a.s.s. Hudson.
I notice a lot how you twist reality around, which makes you the most sinister of the right wing bunch on here. You will actually give a proof that planet earth has two moons if necessary and the dumb ones will actually believe that.

This post is a perfect example of the insults your hurl, IP. So, Hudson and others who oppose your opinion are sinister? I only hurl insults when people lie about me. That's the only thing that pushes me over the edge. However, you can't engage in a debate without tossing stones. Thanks for the thread, btw. I think some people got a kick out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:
MORONS !!!!
ECO 101

SUPPLY > DEMAND = Lower Costs
SUPPLY < DEMAND = Higher Costs

What is so difficult about this??? If you want lower costs you 1) Increase Supply or 2) Lower Demand.

More health care increases demand, it does not reduce it. This will result in higher costs.

so, how do you increase supply in health care Michael? Or how do you decrease demand? Some is alleging you are the expert.

The other mumbo jumbo really has nothing to do with health care directly or indirectly.

We gearing up for an iperson week?, LOL.

We are sinister, Mooo haaa haaa haaa with our black capes, tall hats and upturned waxed mustaches.

quote:

Originally posted by iperson:
You must have taken those figures our of your a.s.s. Hudson.
I notice a lot how you twist reality around, which makes you the most sinister of the right wing bunch on here. You will actually give a proof that planet earth has two moons if necessary and the dumb ones will actually believe that.

Healthcare industry accounts for around 20% of GDP, and the five big insurance companies are not making any profit??? What???
Kid around in a sandbox, Hudson.

No, I got it from the 10-k report from the SEC that CIGNA is required to file annually. I even provided the link. I just cannot help people who do not understand financial statements.

And all I posted was CIGNA, which is where Mr. Potter was VP of operations. Add the fact that CIGNA does not have exuberant profits, it dilutes his argument.

quote:

Originally posted by Hudson:
so, how do you increase supply in health care Michael? Or how do you decrease demand? Some is alleging you are the expert.
The other mumbo jumbo really has nothing to do with health care directly or indirectly.

Moron; I already explained that to increase supply of health care, we need more doctors, nurses and health care providers. This can be immediately addressed by providing visas and allowing med students to remain in country. Also by recognizing quality foreign medical schools and letting their doctors work here. Insurance increases demand (especially when its paid by other people !). Economics is Economics. It doesn't matter what the industry is. Idiot. ****.

Actually, Potter was head of communications at Cigna. A paid mouthpiece. I wonder who is paying him now to spout the nonsense he is? With the job he had he didn't need to know any of the intricacies. He was told what to say, he said it, that's it.

quote:

Originally posted by iperson:I agree, just one thing. There's a problem with just the supply of doctors (which is yet to be actually verified), the major problem is with the supply of insurance options.
Republicans say that you don't want the govt between you and your doctor, but an insurance industry can, right?
If anyone keeps tabs on the supply of doctors, those are the insurance companies who cherry pick the best doctors for their hospitals and clinics. They don't worry about the shortage of doctors because their primary business model is to deny as many people as possible. Because if more people are treated, they spend more money and that lowers the potential profit making and makes them less Wallstreet appealing.

Public option creates competition and equalizes the playing field. Of course that means lower profits for those companies, and this is the only reason they are fighting the reform. Any little thing that threatens profits, like adhering to industry regulation threatens their standing on Wallstreet.
I cannot say it in clearer terms than that.

You are confusing TWO seperate industrys; healthcare and insurance. The reason why people get insurance is because healthcare is so costly. The root cause needs to be addressed; not the symptom.

Insurance companies perform a role to allocate scarce supply with demand. They do it more efficiently and fairly than government ever will. Government will sentence you to death.

Can you name any area where ANY government in ANY area (except mass murder) has performed more efficiently than the private market? NO. Our Prison health care system, our military health care system, medicaid, medicare, etc are all dismal failures. The British, Canadian, and French healthcare systems have bankrupt those countries. It doesn't work. Never has, Never will. Give me one example where socialized medical care has ever been better than the private market that we had 20-30 years ago when anyone who had a job had medical coverage.

Even our animals vetrinary care system is more efficient than our human medical care system and its affordable and available because there is little to no insurance plans (at least not very popular) and no government intervention; supply of vets = demand. If I take my dog to an emergency room; he is seen in minutes, not hours. And the cost is $200 or so, not $20,000. Same equipment, Same medicines, Same procedures. If anything, the animal hospital is cleaner and nicer than any human one I have ever seen. Explain that moron.

quote:

Originally posted by iperson:
Hudson, you act like this authority on all "serious" knowledge, as if you are the serious person who KNOWS.
And you know what's the truth? You have no clue about your own country's politics, and me, an immigrant knows it so much better, in fact straight from the roots of grass. I stay on top of politics every single day.
You are completely clueless man. SOM knows more than you, and in some respect even Davdah, as far as politics is concerned.
Any mildly knowledgable person knows that what I am saying is the truth, and even you know it on some level, but will not admit it not to give the props to an immigrant woman, who according to you is on the lower level of the so called food chain, far down the hierarchy of "authority".
Because you're the white old guy, who KNOWS.
Let me give you a clue, your time is over. Times have changed underneath your feet and your authority has weakened. The old white man is no longer THE authority on knowledge and life.

Nice diversionary tactic IP to insulting the messenger and not the message IP. Cute modus operandi, but it no longer works around here, but simply makes you look more foolish unfortunately.

quote:

On top of things, you misconstrue and twist my statements.
GOP purges it's RINOs by personal destruction, scandal, and financial ruin, etc. NOT by democratic process as DINOs get treated. That's the major difference. And you know why? Because GOP electorate is too dumb to decide, and they never make any decisions. Decisions are made for them by the GOP dictatorship. It's a neanderthal politics, not modern democracy.
I just happen to know a thing or two about it.

I did not twist anyting IP. You stated, "Those "Democrats" aren't real Democrats, they are more Republicans in the skin of Democrats." and you stated, "Socialists in Russia and the ex soviet block purged their party similarly to the current US Republican Party in the last eight years." And you sumed it up nicely by stating, If you really want to compare which US party is closer to the socialist ideal, it is the GOP.

Is that what you stated IP. Your argument was 1)Those that voted against the public option are not real Democrats
2) You will purge them from office; and
3_ The GOP, the Soviet block did the same thang and that is like socialism.

So, it begs the question, if the Democrats purge the party the Moderate and Conservative democrats who believe the public option will not work, then that tent is getting smaller, isn't it. And to conclude your logical argument, if the GOP purged their party to become socialists and the Democrats do the same thing, is that socialism as well? That is what you argued IP, not me. I simply used your own argument against you. Nothing more, nothing less.

quote:

As far as public option- it's no rocket science WHY the public voted for Obama. Didn't he promise universal healthcare? That's another word for public option for you.
Amazing how straight facts and common sense wisdom needs to be repeated over and over again here.

No onbe can define what the public option is IP and consumers do want choice. But is the public option a choice? If you listen to Anthony Weiner, he says it should replace the private insruance companies. So, how is that choice?

IP, the insurance industry was created out of the high cost of medicine to begin with. The insurance companies dictate what the doctor does, not the other way around. If the government option were to exist, the government would control doctors and the hospitals. To get rid of the need for insurance you need to be rid of the high cost. Government never runs any program with an emphasis on cost savings. They would only make matters worse. Thank God, we dodged that bullet for now.

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by Hudson:
so, how do you increase supply in health care Michael? Or how do you decrease demand? Some is alleging you are the expert.
The other mumbo jumbo really has nothing to do with health care directly or indirectly.

Moron; I already explained that to increase supply of health care, we need more doctors, nurses and health care providers. This can be immediately addressed by providing visas and allowing med students to remain in country. Also by recognizing quality foreign medical schools and letting their doctors work here. Insurance increases demand (especially when its paid by other people !). Economics is Economics. It doesn't matter what the industry is. Idiot. ****.

Actually, if you increase doctors, you increase costs. To increase doctors will increase the osts of going to Medical school, which is already expensive, and then you need to increase the nurses and physician assitants, which also increase costs. That is how the health industry works SOM, which means it does not act like your junori college economics textbook.

quote:

Originally posted by iperson:
The costs of healthcare are unnecesserily inflated, true. But between the doctor and you sits the insurance industry! You cannot get treated if you first don't fill out countless forms at the hospital, and answering tons of questions before they ease your pain.

I do not support socialized medicine at all, private sector does it best. When did I say otherwise? The public option's role is to break the monopoly first and foremost.
Then the market starts functioning again, and there won't be a need for public option. Public option is a separate insurance pool, NOT a healthcare system of government run hospitals.

Moron.

Right; the government never makes you fill our forms and wait !!! LOL !! Are you really a human being on this planet?? Have you been to a DMV office? You didn't have to wait? You never saw the lines outside an immigration office? How long does a fiancee visa take (6 months)? Who are you kidding?

Ask an Iraqi Vet about how great his medical care at the VA center was. Some of these guys wait months for artificial limbs. Ask someone on medicare how it felt to lose their home and spend 6 months with a lawyer to become eligible. Ask a 9/11 rescue worker about how long the application forms were to get reimbursed for his injuries. Thousands of 9/11 victims died because the government wouldn't even consider their claims to be valid. This is how government performs. This is the fact; not your fantasy world. Government does not work; never has; never will.

The problem is with the supply of medical care. Insurance is the bogeyman.

Hudson, I don't think so. With more schools competing for students the price for admission would drop. With more doctors being churned out the salary they could demand would also decline. This is no different than what happened during the dot com bubble. Back in the day when computer programmers commanded high salaries due to scarcity. Now, every other shmo out there can write software. Their income is near minimum wage now.

quote:

Originally posted by Hudson:

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by Hudson:
so, how do you increase supply in health care Michael? Or how do you decrease demand? Some is alleging you are the expert.
The other mumbo jumbo really has nothing to do with health care directly or indirectly.

Moron; I already explained that to increase supply of health care, we need more doctors, nurses and health care providers. This can be immediately addressed by providing visas and allowing med students to remain in country. Also by recognizing quality foreign medical schools and letting their doctors work here. Insurance increases demand (especially when its paid by other people !). Economics is Economics. It doesn't matter what the industry is. Idiot. ****.

Actually, if you increase doctors, you increase costs. To increase doctors will increase the osts of going to Medical school, which is already expensive, and then you need to increase the nurses and physician assitants, which also increase costs. That is how the health industry works SOM, which means it does not act like your junori college economics textbook.

You are quite the moron. Students pay for Med School which they pay back with their inflated salaries. When you say Med School is expensive; compared to what? These guys make $250-$500K. We should worry about their measly $100K student loan? And if government restricts the number of Med Schools to 170, they can charge whatever they want given the demand. More seats, more school, more competition, lower tuition, lower student loans, more doctors, more health care, lower patient costs. Or should they go to one of the 200+ law schools or 500+ business schools instead?

What do you not understand? The healthcare industry is not to blame for the shortage of doctors and nurses. They are not to blame for doctors making $250-$500K annually and nurses making $100-$200K. You are a fool and an idiot. You are clueless beyond belief. Hopeless.

This is funnier than sht!

quote:

Originally posted by iperson:]
I agree, just one thing. There's a problem with just the supply of doctors (which is yet to be actually verified), the major problem is with the supply of insurance options.
Republicans say that you don't want the govt between you and your doctor, but an insurance industry can, right?
If anyone keeps tabs on the supply of doctors, those are the insurance companies who cherry pick the best doctors for their hospitals and clinics. They don't worry about the shortage of doctors because their primary business model is to deny as many people as possible. Because if more people are treated, they spend more money and that lowers the potential profit making and makes them less Wallstreet appealing.

Public option creates competition and equalizes the playing field. Of course that means lower profits for those companies, and this is the only reason they are fighting the reform. Any little thing that threatens profits, like adhering to industry regulation threatens their standing on Wallstreet.
I cannot say it in clearer terms than that.

You do realize that doctors choose the insurance plans to accept as payment and not the other way around IP and SOM. If you look at natinmaster, you see the physicians per 1000 ranging from 1990 to 2003. The U.S on average has 1.6 physicians per 1000 with the last result in 2002.

As for insurance options, there there needs to be more choice, which I why I am in favor of national standards and interstate competition. Additionally, we may need to look at the Sherman anti-trust laws on the state level. And the public option will not owrk if you do not use these measures first. Otherwise, the public option becomes a poor choice.

Another possibiltiy is to look at the Singapore model. The Singapore model has two tier system: basic coverage is paid for by public funds while specialities are paid for privately. They also have a much lowwer health related sosts compared to the Western world.

Which leads us to the average consumer and their irrational choices in health related matters.

Ip, Some insurance companies sponsor hospitals, that is true. But many do not. They are strictly risk based paper companies. Anyone get build a hospital provided you have the money.

Here are some stats on Cigna since you think it's all about the greedy stock holders.

Open 27.94
Previous Close 28.09
52 - Week Range 8.00 - 35.285
11/21/08 - 10/1/08
Avg Volume (10 days)
5,924,138
P/E (Trailing 12 mo.)
12.8x
EPS (Trailing 12 mo.)
2.1807
Next Earnings Date
11/5/09
Market Cap 7.6 B
Shares Outstanding 272.7 M
Beta 1.8
Dividend Yield 0.14%
Declared Dividend 0.04
Ex-Dividend Date 3/9/09
Dividend Payable Date 4/10/09


Their dividend is 4 freakin cents! Is that something to cheer about?

quote:

Originally posted by iperson:
I know why insurance industry exists, Davdah. Duh!
There is really no easy way to lower healthcare costs. One way if insurance industry were honest, they'd build more hospitals and hire more doctors, but that goes against their mission: predatory profit making to satisfy stockholders. That's it. That's how far the fabulous capitalism has come.
In the begining there was American capitalism. It meant actually provide service, quality and fairness.
Now it's PROFIT, WALLSTREET, STOCKHOLDERS AND MORE PROFIT.
Just look what that did to eBay when it went public- a complete nose dive.

Insurance companies do not build hospitals IP. In the U.S. most hospitals are 501c3 organizations built by private donated funds from individuals, funds from local and state governments, and private company endowments, among others.

It's those greedy stock holders building the hospitals. They want people to get sick so they can cash in on them, LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:
You are quite the moron. Students pay for Med School which they pay back with their inflated salaries. When you say Med School is expensive; compared to what? These guys make $250-$500K. We should worry about their measly $100K student loan? And if government restricts the number of Med Schools to 170, they can charge whatever they want given the demand. More seats, more school, more competition, lower tuition, lower student loans, more doctors, more health care, lower patient costs. Or should they go to one of the 200+ law schools or 500+ business schools instead?

What do you not understand? The healthcare industry is not to blame for the shortage of doctors and nurses. They are not to blame for doctors making $250-$500K annually and nurses making $100-$200K. You are a fool and an idiot. You are clueless beyond belief. Hopeless.

SOM do you have $100k in your back pocket when you are 23? That is how much it costs to go to med school just to get the chance to practice medicine. After that, you have three years of internship and then several more years, up to 11 as a resident physician, depending on what your specialty is. And those salaries are not realized until after the physician has completed all the training is completed.