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quote: Originally posted by davdah:
Hudson, there may be some illegals who through forms of fraud come into possession of a stolen SSN. For example the illegal who meets someone claiming they can give them a legitimate SSN for work. He spends the 200.00 for it thinking he has a valid SSN number. Ok, what happens when he files his taxes? Did he? Oops I guess he forgot to. Didn't know he was supposed to. Forgivness? I thought the tax code didn't allow for that. Or does ignorance as a defense only apply to illegals?
Even in those cases where the illegal was duped into believing he had something possibly credible the reality is he finds out soon enough its not. Only when they are caught they cry, I didn't know! Common sense has to prevail. They had to know something is wrong with the idea of buying a SSN and drivers license from someone on the street corner. Yes, they do have a DMV in Mexico. And some assemblance of SS administration too. Familiarity is there to reference.
And, you don't need to know the basics of IL to acquire a SSN. Nor should it be a defense to using one that is stolen. Why is it then that people who play by the rules are not on the streets of L.A. purchasing these same cards?
Few and far between are the examples you gave. The majority knowingly purchase and use fake identities.
If one uses a SSN whose name, specifically, the last name, does not match the records of the SSA or the IRS, then you have a name mismatch with a CP 51 being issued. The refund will be held with a possible math error adjustment lowering the refund until the name and TIN is verified and corrected. this occurs not only with illegals Davdah, but with USC. Both have to go through the same process. However, what happens if the illegal files a tax return with an ITIN but the W-2 has a SSN. Well, the IRS has now issued proceedures to verify employmemt. Sometimes it is not an illegal that does this, but someone who came legally but has no work authorization. We now have another issue to contend with. Or what happens if the illegal is an independent contractor? No I-9 will be filled out, will it? What about a W-9? Only if the pay is equal to or greater than $600. But wait, it requires a valid TIN which includes ITIN, EIN, ATIN, or SSN. But wait, there is more. What happens when a W-8 is filed? No TIN is required unless claiming a tax treaty benefit. And we have not begun to talk about employers/payers who pay under the table where no I-9 or W-9 is being followed. But when an employer is paying someone under the table, that employer is also not tax compliant in other areas as well. The point of this is you cannot be sure if an illegal is filing a tax return or not. There is some indication that illegals are filing because of option c on form W-7 is being used more frequently. And the unauthorized work rules apply only to dependent personal services only. the situation has many facets, and like I said, you think two dimensionally only. PS. You dneed to stop reading VDAR Davdah.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by JermCool:
I've been reading more about this. I still can't find specific numbers, but all the articles and editorials I'm reading suggest that most illegal immigrants are using identity theft to gain employment.
My initial estimate might be too low. Rather than 15-20%, it might be closer to 30-40%.
Articles are generally not worth very much, IMHO. Depending on the bias of the organization or the author of the blog or article will depend on the relavancy and accuracy of such articles. I am not saying it does not happen, just saying you should not put too much stock into articles you find on the internet.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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For the various examples given there is a way to take care of it. What is being done now? In the majority of cases the illegal is using a stolen SSN and working a regular job. For independents they should have a I-9 or W-9 done. You can't know if the annual wages will exceed the requirement to file threshold until the end of the year. I my self have all independents fill out a I-9/W-9, no exceptions. The point of this was the idea that most, not all, but most illegals are using stolen SSN numbers to stay employed. As a real world example. Those meat packing plants that got nailed. In the one they recorded the HR person telling the illegal to 'fix' their SS number since it didn't actually exist. That tells me the days when they could make up numbers are over. If W-7s are being used more often it is only due to the increased difficulty of obtaining and using SSNs. I'll take that as a good sign. The criminals are having to explore other forms of fraud. Here is a suggestion. If someone uses option C require the submission of their ARN. If that one item were fixed it would take care of about 95% of the abuse. There will be some who will hire and pay under the table no matter what. More than likely the employer is hiding under the table as well. They manufacture table legs. LOL... P.S. VDAR? These are my own thoughts, not someone else's. Any similarity is purely coincidental. Or perhaps VDAR is reading mine.  My only interest is in protecting USCs from outside fraud, what's yours?
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
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| Posts: 5792 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007 | |
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Power Member
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We just brushed against a tornado yesterday. I saw a fringe of it outside the window bending trees in half. Lasted just 30 seconds, but 150 thousand have no electricity, us included. Kollerkrot, thanks. You know what for. I hope to be back online soon.
the "personal" is political
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Senior Member
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quote: Originally posted by Hudson:
Articles are generally not worth very much, IMHO. Depending on the bias of the organization or the author of the blog or article will depend on the relavancy and accuracy of such articles. I am not saying it does not happen, just saying you should not put too much stock into articles you find on the internet.
Considering I've been reading articles from across the board (Fox News, MSNBC, NY Times, CNN) and right-wing and left-wing editorials, I think I've been relatively thorough in my research. Seriously, Hudson, it exists. It exists in great numbers (and I mean millions). I have cited specific examples. I have done my best to cite specific numbers. This is not exactly something you can continue to pull apart.
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"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. " - Thomas Jefferson
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| Posts: 775 | Location: Las Vegas | Registered: 05-16-2008 | |
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Power Member
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Its part of the leftist strategy. Find the exception to the rule and make it the rule. You're absolutely right. How else are all the illegals staying employed? In 99% of the cases they are not setting up a DBA or using W-9's, W-7's. They can't very well use completely fake SS numbers anymore. They are sold the stolen numbers in Mexico before they ever cross the border. Its probably part of what they pay for in their border crossing package.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
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| Posts: 5792 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007 | |
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by JermCool:
Considering I've been reading articles from across the board (Fox News, MSNBC, NY Times, CNN) and right-wing and left-wing editorials, I think I've been relatively thorough in my research.
Seriously, Hudson, it exists. It exists in great numbers (and I mean millions). I have cited specific examples. I have done my best to cite specific numbers. This is not exactly something you can continue to pull apart.
Davdah and JC, YOu missed the entire point. First, this has nothing to do with which side of the fence your political views lie. Second, it has more to do with perception than actual facts. The reality is there is no evidence to support any claim on who commits ID theft and why. What is known is that a variety of groups do this for a variety reasons. But no links to confirm or deny what you read. So, the question is how do you explain the discrepancy? Do you go with what you want to read, what you know, or do you make an assumption that your think you are right and others are wrong? All I said, in a nutshell, is to take what you see printed or with other media outlets and tread carefully. Just because you may see a similar story a thousand times does not mean you have all the facts. You are just reading a news article and that is all. NOTE: i am not saying illegals do not commit ID theft, what I am saying is little is known on who and why ID theft is occurring. You can speculate all you want, but it is till speculation, not facts.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by davdah:
Its part of the leftist strategy. Find the exception to the rule and make it the rule.
You're absolutely right. How else are all the illegals staying employed? In 99% of the cases they are not setting up a DBA or using W-9's, W-7's. They can't very well use completely fake SS numbers anymore. They are sold the stolen numbers in Mexico before they ever cross the border. Its probably part of what they pay for in their border crossing package.
Again, you are making an assumption that is neither true nor false. Making assumptions where there is little or no evidence to support either cliam is a mark of inept intellect.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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If you want to bury your head, ok. But explain then. What are the majority of illegals using for employment? Not the few that know what a W-9 or W-7 is. Or the few that may know of some other way to appear somewhat legal. The IRS would notice a gigantic increase in independent contractors. There hasn't been. So the obvious conclusion is they are using a SSN that belongs to someone, maybe yours. The amount of evidence is 12 million strong. I believe the circumstantial evidence is substantial enough to assert the obvious.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
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| Posts: 5792 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007 | |
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Senior Member
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quote: Originally posted by Hudson:
Davdah and JC,
YOu missed the entire point. First, this has nothing to do with which side of the fence your political views lie. Second, it has more to do with perception than actual facts. The reality is there is no evidence to support any claim on who commits ID theft and why. What is known is that a variety of groups do this for a variety reasons. But no links to confirm or deny what you read. So, the question is how do you explain the discrepancy? Do you go with what you want to read, what you know, or do you make an assumption that your think you are right and others are wrong?
All I said, in a nutshell, is to take what you see printed or with other media outlets and tread carefully. Just because you may see a similar story a thousand times does not mean you have all the facts. You are just reading a news article and that is all.
NOTE: i am not saying illegals do not commit ID theft, what I am saying is little is known on who and why ID theft is occurring. You can speculate all you want, but it is till speculation, not facts.
If both sides are agreeing that the majority of illegal immigrants are using ID theft to gain employment, then it's not a politically motivated argument. Nor is it speculation! I cited specific examples. How can that be speculative? The fact of the matter is, proper numbers can't be posted because the IDs can be stolen from people who don't take proactive measures to verify their information hasn't been compromised. Some of these are children who won't know until they go for a credit card or a loan years in the future that someone has totally screwed them over. Nevertheless, the problem is REAL. My percentages may be speculation, but to say MILLIONS of people have had their information compromised so illegals can gain employment is very easily an accurate statement.
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"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. " - Thomas Jefferson
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| Posts: 775 | Location: Las Vegas | Registered: 05-16-2008 | |
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Power Member
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What is the debate about? Just tell me what needs to be proven, and I will prove it  P.S. 100% undeniable & guaranteed Proof-Menu includes: 1. Most illegals use fake ID's to gain employment, ergo stronger ID checks, databases (and ID's) are required to deter illegals from gaining employment through obtaining of fake ID's. 2. You can't blame and target 100% illegals for actions of 99.99%, because then you unfairly target innocent of fraud 0.01% illegals. Ergo, any attempt to even speak of this issue is nothing short of social profiling (and since most illegals don't look like HP Baxxter, it's also, by default, case of racial profiling). 3. I can also, in the same spirit, with the same strength of argument, speak and prove the point of RN, davdah and Hudson (depending on my initial intention and willingness to prove one or another sides' point of view). 4. I can prove them all wrong and come up with some new point, declare myself to be only one who is right and prove it too. 5. I can also, afterwards, come forward and prove myself (#4) to be wrong, pretensious, self-righteous and delusional person (no matter what point I advance there), and restore once again the point of view advanced under #1, #2 or #3 6. I can prove all above wrong and show that all these arguments are nothing but insanity - and that nothing beats bottle of cold Corona Extra (or Heineken, depending who wants me do the advertisement).  Have a nice evening, all! 
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It is not necessary for the public to know whether I am joking or whether I am serious, just as it is not necessary for me to know it myself.
Salvador Dali
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by davdah:
I like your choice of beer. Nevertheless, reality is what it is. The argument here is what is the average illegal using for an SSN? They can't use fakes anymore. It has to belong to someone. I bet if we all checked some would find they have already been compromised.
Impossible to argue about numbers, only statistical data may say what average illegal is using. I would assume that those illegals who work "over the table" use either: ITIN #, or (since nearly half came legally and overstayed) they use their own SS # , which are in fact not valid for work or valid with CIS permission only. Lastly, those EWI's or those who prefer to work "over the table" with "good working papers" (for whom neither ITIN# nor valid SS# will do), those must be the ones who use fake docs. If argument is solely about numbers, then you may want to do some data-search and copy-paste here several graphic images showing the "pie" - percentage wise , and sources.
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It is not necessary for the public to know whether I am joking or whether I am serious, just as it is not necessary for me to know it myself.
Salvador Dali
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Senior Member
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*growl* E, you had to poke the one hole in my argument, didn't you? A 0.01% hole. Gimme my Corona. With lime.
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"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. " - Thomas Jefferson
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| Posts: 775 | Location: Las Vegas | Registered: 05-16-2008 | |
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by JermCool:
*growl*
E, you had to poke the one hole in my argument, didn't you? A 0.01% hole.
More like 99.99% flush-gate
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It is not necessary for the public to know whether I am joking or whether I am serious, just as it is not necessary for me to know it myself.
Salvador Dali
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by JermCool:
If both sides are agreeing that the majority of illegal immigrants are using ID theft to gain employment, then it's not a politically motivated argument. Nor is it speculation! I cited specific examples. How can that be speculative?
The fact of the matter is, proper numbers can't be posted because the IDs can be stolen from people who don't take proactive measures to verify their information hasn't been compromised. Some of these are children who won't know until they go for a credit card or a loan years in the future that someone has totally screwed them over.
Nevertheless, the problem is REAL. My percentages may be speculation, but to say MILLIONS of people have had their information compromised so illegals can gain employment is very easily an accurate statement.
OK JC, What reference point, that is, a comparison to illegal aliens working in a dependent personal services only to the total number ID theft cases reported? Since you do not see stories about USC or other, do you discount the probability of a USC committing this crime? Or how about other possibilities such as gangs, criminal enterprises, tax preparation sites stealing ID's, or other groups? Do you dismiss them based on the same reason you do not see them in the articles you have searched? Remember, you are using only media reports, that is, only newsworthy items chosen to be printed. You also have to realize that the media has a finite space to report such news and events. So, the question also comes to this. If a newspaper or journalism news wire bureau has been given two stories of id theft which one would they choose. Now, one new story involves an illegal alien with the other involving a USC. Both used ID theft for a nefarious reason, yet both for employment purposes. So, which story would you see JC? News media will report the news of certain material interest to what they think their readers want to read or hear, but that does not say they agree in principle who is to blame. That debate is raging on now with very little evidence. Most people will make assumption, as Davdah has, This study provides a clear example about perception even when statistical data exist. Or this study provides another clear example how media and public perception are tied.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
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Power Member
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And the point being 
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It is not necessary for the public to know whether I am joking or whether I am serious, just as it is not necessary for me to know it myself.
Salvador Dali
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Power Member
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quote: Originally posted by davdah:
If you want to bury your head, ok. But explain then. What are the majority of illegals using for employment? Not the few that know what a W-9 or W-7 is. Or the few that may know of some other way to appear somewhat legal.
The IRS would notice a gigantic increase in independent contractors. There hasn't been. So the obvious
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