There aren't any cob webs. Reading through the code it could be used to include landlords. Although at present they don't it has the ability to be applied. The intent of it may have been for coyotes and smugglers but it can be used at the Gov's discretion for a landlord or even an employer who missed a step when he hired that one illegal by accident. I cited the example of abortion clinic protesters and RICO. That was a far stretch and what did protesting have to do with organized crime? Very little. RICO was designed for the mafia but can be applied to anything the Gov wants it to. It just depends on who is interpreting the law. You get an activist judge who is a militant pro-abortionist and that is all it took to get planned parenthood its desired result. Same could happen here. Get a judge who dislikes all immigrants and it could be made to come down hard on anyone who renders any aid direct or indirect. It just depends on what they consider to be 'knowing' or 'in reckless disregard'. Since it isn't defined that could be made to include 'ignorance is not a defense' as one extreme or what ever they choose. Its wide open for interpretation.
As for Chickens. Your argument about who would want to work there is a bit weak. Who 'wants' to work at all? How many people really like their job? The numbers are probably low on both poles. If the wage is good enough they will come. If Johnny is working at a fast food place for 8.00 an hour and Swift offers 13 or 14 there is a good chance Johnny will apply. Other factors weigh in but much of it depends on the salary offered. Obviously the COGS will jump and it will be passed on to Joe consumer but it isn't any different than any other price increase. Has anyone seen prices drop on anything long term? Any takers? What will happen? Some plants will close. That is inevitable. The ones that stay open will have higher costs and they will probably start looking for ways to increase productivity. Kind of like what Henry Ford did. They will find ways to bring the costs back down again. We should not subsidize lazy industry because they want to avoid the cost of modernization. The subsidy has been substandard pay to people who were being taken advantage of due to status. Was that right to begin with? Of course not.
Yes we do live in a material 'world'. Its not isolated to the US of A. Its everywhere. From the streets of Brazil to the former USSR. They like fashion as much as we do. They want to drive a Rolls Royce too. Who doesn't? Nothing wrong with that. Its why we get up every morning and go to work. You could live under a bridge with a shopping cart but you don't. Why does anyone try to get promotion? Why does anyone want to live in the better section of town? Its all material. You may think its unnecessary to live in a 10,000. sq ft house but the illegal thinks the same of your 2500 sq ft house. Who's interpretation is correct?
There are arguments on both sides for global economy. The problem is the standard of living in a global market place would, if fully implemented, put everyone on the same level. I don't know about you but I don't want to live at the same standard as the people who are running away from it and crossing our border. We can't allow that. As far as the 4.9% rate goes that doesn't include a lot of people. I think 0% is a better rate. Yes I know its impossible but the closer the better.
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5746 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
The Immigration issue is complex, since it has to balance the rights of citizens of the United States and of those who enter the U.S. legally, with the basic human rights of those who flee their country due to their country’s oppressive, and even dangerous, policies. The Statue of Liberty claims to represent an attitude to those coming to the United States – that we symbolize freedom and that we welcome those seeking liberty. Yet, our attitudes to immigrants often don’t follow that promise.
Sometimes, to listen to Conservative Christian Republican candidates talk, we might think that they are called, by God, to dismiss, ostracize, and kick out the immigrant. There is little compassion or regard for any basic human rights, and if anything, we can hear fear, hatred, and using words that make the immigrant into someone not quite human. Listen to Romney, for instance, and you’ll hear the word “alien†used often, almost as if these people coming across our border from Mexico (or anywhere else) may as well be little green men from Mars.
Although these are the people who say they take the Bible seriously, and even literally, there is little discussion about Biblical precepts, unless it seems to serve their purpose. Although this is a complex issue in terms of what actions to take, it doesn’t take much to hear that there are many negative attitudes toward the immigrant. Much of the rhetoric has attitudes of fear, defense and protection – rather than any sense of basic human rights. But any discussion of what actions need to be taken must begin with a discussion of what attitudes are behind our actions and why those attitudes exist. We might notice, for instance, that we’re far more willing to welcome the northern European immigrant than the person from the Middle-East. We seem more willing to welcome the Hispanic from Spain, than the Hispanic from Mexico or El Salvador. Could some of our immigration policy be based on racist attitudes? Probably.
And what does the Bible have to say about this problem? Quite a lot.
We are to love the stranger (Deut. 10) and not to oppress the alien (Exodus 23). We are led to action through the Social Gospel, that asks us to set at liberty those who are oppressed (Luke 4) and to feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, and welcome the stranger (Matthew 25). We are to do these actions to the least of us. If we believe this, what public policy might result? Should our Christian beliefs be part of our public policy at all? If a candidate says it should be, then that candidate has to take these passages seriously.
There are many problems that need to be addressed when we look at immigration. We can look at the roots of the problem of immigration – why do people want to come to the U.S. and leave their country? Usually it’s because of the oppression of the countries that force their citizens to flee in order to feed and clothe their children, and our own country’s use and abuse of the immigrants in order to keep up our own standard of living through the labor of the poor. Although we might say we’d like all the immigrants to leave, our standard of living is dependent upon them being here.
This means the problem has to be addressed through many avenues because of its complexity. Dennis Kucinich says “there are no illegal peopleâ€. Many would affirm fair treatment for everyone, that the stranger is not forgotten and further oppressed. We try to balance fair treatment for those within our country with fair treatment for those coming to our country. And we need to try to separate fact from fiction about fairness.
We need to decide, as a democratic country, to what extent do we believe that there are basic human rights – that should be available to everyone, regardless of where they live. This means struggling with whether, or not, we should provide education, health care, and any democratic rights to those who are not citizens of our country. Personally, I believe there are some basic human rights that should transcend borders.
During the last seven years, many of our basic democratic rights have been taken away from our citizens, as well as from non-citizens. We need to decide if human rights are basic – and inalienable – or whether they just belong to those who happen to be favored by our current government. And if human rights cost us, do we prefer to put our money into protecting and affirming rights, or into the billions spent for corruption and war?
Utah's Catholic leader says changed policies, hearts - not fence - answer to immigration crisis
By Mark Havnes The Salt Lake Tribune Article Last Updated: 12/20/2007 06:22:51 AM MST
ST. GEORGE - Forget fenced borders. The real answer to closing chasms in the dicey debate over immigration, the bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City said Wednesday, is found in changed policies and changed hearts.
"Whatever side you're on, pro or con [on immigration]," the Rev. John Wester told the St. George Area Chamber of Commerce, "we need to bring a sense that we are all children of God."
The bishop's remarks come on the heels of a heated immigration debate during recent municipal elections in St. George, a mushrooming southwestern Utah city grappling with a surging influx of Latinos.
Wester, who heads the committee on migration with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, acknowledged that such growth can strain the "spirit of hospitality."
Washington County's population has ballooned by 160 percent since 1990, according to the latest census estimates, to more than 126,000 people. St. George is approaching 70,000, a 137 percent jump.
Latinos make up an estimated 10 percent or more of those figures - and their numbers are expected to continue to swell.
Wester, who has been in Utah for nine months, encouraged residents to treat all people with dignity from birth to death. He said countries have a right to secure, sovereign borders, but added that everyone belongs to a wider world community.
"All of us are citizens of a larger society," he told about 75 chamber members.
After his address, Wester said his committee on migration would like to see just and prudent reforms in federal immigration laws.
"What we have now isn't working," he said. "Putting up a fence along the border would not solve the problem. We need something to allow an orderly influx of people so we know who is coming in."
The current wave of immigrants - mainly Latino -is increasing tensions in Utah's Dixie.
Sgt. Craig Harding, a spokesman for the St. George police who attended Wednesday's luncheon, acknowledged those tensions while pressing residents to embrace the Latino populace. "They are here," Harding said. "It's a fact of life, so make the best of it. Latinos contribute a lot of good to the community."
One misperception is that Latinos commit more crimes. It's not true, said Harding, estimating Latinos make up only 8 percent to 9 percent of arrests.
Harding said residents sometimes ask him why police do not enforce immigration laws. He said that if a person is arrested, federal officials are notified if needed. Other than that, he added, police do not detain people for skin color or ethnicity.
"You can't just stop a person because they have brown skin," Harding said. "Not only is it against the tenets of the U.S. Constitution, it opens you up for a civil-rights suit."
Manny Aguilar, a Latino activist in St. George, lauded Wester's emphasis on equality. "Diversity works," Aguilar said. "Equality - no one better, no one less."
* Remember all people are God's children. * Show hospitality to family, friends and strangers and treat everyone with dignity. * Listen to people and realize each person has a story peculiar to his or her life. * Ensure churches are involved in the immigration debate because they are global in scope and vision. * Be generous and remember that to whom much is given, much is demanded.
By THE REV. E. ROY RILEY AND RALSTON DEFFENBAUGH SPECIAL TO THE HERALD NEWS
Bertha came to the Lutheran pastor in Weehawken, weeping uncontrollably. She is a single, undocumented woman with a child. Her husband brought her here to this country some years ago and abandoned her. Bertha works in a small garment factory in urban northeastern New Jersey, at least she used to until the Department of Homeland Security conducted a raid at her job site. She was the only one who escaped arrest for deportation.
Bertha hid under the floor boards below her work station. That was her emergency preparedness plan, because she has a 9-year-old son, a U.S. citizen, and she lived in fear that they might be separated. Bertha remains distraught: "If I had been taken away," she cried, "what would have happened to my son, Antony?"
We could say, "Well, Bertha, you should have thought of that before you agreed to come to this country." In fact, all immigrant parents should have thought of their children's jeopardy before they came here. But for the vast majority of young immigrant families, that is exactly what they did. They weighed that jeopardy; they wanted to give their children an adequate home, sufficient food, and a good education -- a chance for a better life. They counted the cost and for the sake of their families they mustered the courage to come to this country.
Increasingly, the federal government is resorting to SWAT-like raids and the widespread jailing of immigrants as a way to enforce our immigration laws and to send a message to lawbreakers. In the past decade, the number of immigrants in prison-like detention has skyrocketed from a few thousand to nearly 30,000 persons on any given day.
These harsh practices are having a devastating and counterproductive impact on families, children and communities. Ultimately, these policies are taking us down a path that demeans not only the dignity of those we detain but also our country's values and core identity.
No one knows exactly what will happen to the other employees from Bertha's factory, but many are probably being detained in prison-like environments while awaiting deportation. In New Jersey on any given day, the federal government detains about 1,000 immigrants. Hundreds of immigrant families are also detained in facilities in Pennsylvania and Texas. Earlier this year, Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service released a report describing the poor conditions in those family facilities and expressing grave concerns about how families, including many with young children, could be detained at all.
The federal government now spends more than $1.2 billion annually to detain immigrants at a price of more than $100 per day for each person. Less costly alternatives do exist, but their expansion and development would require a creativity and thoughtfulness that precious few leaders in our government seem to possess.
People in our communities are looking for real leadership on immigration. We need honest, courageous discussion that confronts the difficult questions. How did we lose sight of the fact that we are a nation built almost entirely by immigrant people? How did we lose sight of that most fundamental of our values: the protection of children and families?
The Lutheran Church in New Jersey and throughout this country is deeply engaged in ministry with immigrant people, including hundreds held in detention. We ask that our government officials reconsider these policies that are transforming us into a nation that needlessly imprisons people who are productive members of our communities.
Facts, Figures And Statistics On Illegal Immigration Search This Site Enter your search terms Web This Site Submit search form Section Navigation Introduction Forward The Dark Side Of Illegal Immigration Impacts Of Illegal Immigration: Terrorism Impacts Of Illegal Immigration: Crime Impacts of Illegal Immigration: *** Crimes Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Property Crimes And Operation Predator Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Gangs Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Crime Summary Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Traffic Accidents Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Cultural Difference The Balkanization Of America Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Education Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Diseases Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Jobs Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Abuse Of The Guest Worker Program Impacts of Illegal Immigration: American Infrastructure Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Economic Costs The Costs of Illegal Immigration Should We Grant An Amnesty? The North American Union And The Security And Prosperity Partnership Recipe For Disaster: How To Destroy America Border Security And The Border Fence Solutions To The Illegal Immigration Problem More Realistic Solutions To The Illegal Immigration Problem How You Can Take Action More Information Immigration Facts, Figures And Addendum About The Author Bookmark Us Set Homepage Here Recipe For Disaster: How To Destroy America When contemplating the previous thoughts on illegal immigration, here is the transcript of a speech given by ex-Colorado Governor **** Lamn at a population conference in Washington DC in 2004 to consider:
I Have a Plan to Destroy America I have a secret plan to destroy America. If you believe, as many do, that America is too smug, too white bread, too self-satisfied, too rich, lets destroy America. It is not that hard to do. History shows that nations are more fragile than their citizens think. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and they all fall, and that "an autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide." here is my plan:
We must first make America a bilingual-bicultural country. History shows, in my opinion, that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. One scholar, Seymour Martin Lipset, put it this way: The histories of bilingual and bicultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon ---- all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with its Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.
I would then invent "multiculturalism" and encourage immigrants to maintain their own culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal: that there are no cultural differences that are important. I would declare it an article of faith that the black and hispanic dropout rate is only due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out-of-bounds.
We can make the United States a "hispanic Quebec" without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently:
... the apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically, and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.
I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with a salad bowl metaphor. It is important to insure that we have various cultural sub-groups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than Americans, emphasizing their similarities.
Having done all this, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated - I would add a second underclass, un-assimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% drop out rate from school.
I would then get the big foundations and big business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of Victimology. I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was all the fault of the majority - I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population.
I would establish dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would "Celebrate diversity." "Diversity" is a wonderfully seductive word. It stresses differences rather than commonalities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other-that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse," peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together, and we can take advantage of this myopia. Look at the ancient Greeks. Dorf 's world history tells us:
The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshiped the same gods. All Greece took part in the olympic games in honor of Zeus and all Greeks venerated the shrine of Apollo at Delphi. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet, all of these bonds together were not strong enough to overcome two factors . . . (local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions . . .)
If we can put the emphasis on the "pluribus," instead of the "unum," we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo.
Then I would place all these subjects off limits - make it taboo to talk about. I would find a word similar to "heretic" in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like "racist", "xenophobe" that halts argument and conversation. Having made america a bilingual-bicultural country, having established multiculturalism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of "Victimology", I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra - "that because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good." I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact.
Lastly, I would censor Victor Davis Hanson's book "Mexifornia." This book is dangerous - it exposes my plan to destroy America. So please, please - if you feel that America deserves to be destroyed - please, please - don't buy this book! This guy is on to my plan.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the Spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that Spectrum." - Noam Chomsky, American linguist and US Media and Foreign Policy critic.
It sounds like **** Lamn hit the nail on the head.
However, the question we need to be asking ourselves and members of Congress is:
Why is the plan to destroy America being implemented?
Hey Proud, good article(s). I have heard of a church, I'll have to look it up and PM you that is providing safe haven and refuge to immigrant families in crisis. Churches all across the country are starting to step up to the plate and provide this much needed assistance. Great news!!
Originally posted by 4now: quote by Proud USC: Davdah - that's really grabbing at straws. Most people who are crossing the deserts are doing so out of desperation - so please don't blame people who are compassionate about human rights for their unfortunate deaths. That's ridiculous.[quote]
Well not according to Vincente Fox who on November 13, 2007 said this
Fox opposes the wall to separate the United States from Mexico.
"I love this nation. I don't understand this nation — building walls in front of your neighbor, your friend, your partner," he said.
When asked what Mexico can do to create jobs so its people won't feel the need to immigrate, he responded that Mexicans do have jobs.It's not that they don't have jobs in Mexico, but that they make more money here," he said
Mexicans pick produce, build homes and work in restaurants in the United States, he said.
"You get a good quality of life from these people working."
It has been stated over and over again by people that Mexican illegals cross the border out of desperation. More accurately the word is opportunity according to their former president
As George S Patton said, "fixed fortifications are a monument to man’s stupidity." This goes for the wall as well. Most of the communities along the Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona border have a symbiotic relationship; that is, how one side goes affects the other side. It is the reason why the wall will fail. It is not a permanent solution, nor a temporary one. The wall will divide communities that have been tied beyond the limits of time and space. The wall will create an atmosphere of mistrust and ambiance, particularly on the US side, but also on the Southern border too. And it will not stop the flow of illegal immigration because the wall fails to recognize the reasons why people are coming here in the first place. You may by cynical as to the reason or reasons, but they are real as the reasons why one will go or not go into business. Nor will violating the Posse Comitatus Act (placing troops on the border) will solve the problem either. To solve the problem, our southern neighbors as well as the U.S. must embrace the globalization trends that are now taking effect. Through cooperative effort of individuals, NGO's, IGO's, businesses and governments will the immigration problem only be solved for the United States and our neighbors.
Hudson... Oh Brother. The post and response was not about the wall and you well know it. But it is the only thing u cared to comment on becauseyou and Proud usc continue to maintain that illegal mexican undocumenteds illegally cross into usa because they are starving and poor and dont have jobs.
Well out of their own presidents mouth,, It is not about jobs, as Mexico has plenty of jobs according to Fox. At this rate, I suppose Mexico will eventually have to import foreign help to do the jobs that mexicans wont do. eh
Originally posted by NeedHelpFast: Hey Proud, good article(s). I have heard of a church, I'll have to look it up and PM you that is providing safe haven and refuge to immigrant families in crisis. Churches all across the country are starting to step up to the plate and provide this much needed assistance. Great news!!
Glad you enjoyed them, NHF. I appreciate the fact that the churches are willing to speak out on behalf of immigrants amidst all the public fury over illegal immigration. Good for them!!!
organized religion just wants more morons to give money to the church (and more young people it can abuse)....reality check: the bible does not control our borders, the bible does not control one's life unless one is an idiot and refuses to think for one's self...the Immigration and Nationality Act regulates immigration, not some quote from "Ludicrous 21:34" or some such blather. but no doubt proudusc believes she can summon up her favorite deity like a genie in a bottle....well....let's see you do it....(of course, she will claim that one has to 'have faith' in order to see said deity, just like those charlatan 'faith healers' on TV that only 'heal' poor hearing and trick knees, nothing that can be verified by 21st century medicine....)...still waiting.....
4now not all Mexicans are enjoying the good life. It seems the plan they had to get the rural farmers out into the mainstream failed. Nafta put a lot of their small farms under so they helped them by sending them north to our small farms.
Now they are complaining that we are sending them back home. They have a couple million un employed uneducated farm workers. What to do? Their plan is to provide them jobs. Sounds good but it was specified the jobs would be near the border. Why would the jobs all be focused around the border
I liked your comments to Hudson's statement. Honestly, my eyes began to glaze over trying to figure out what his point was. But it is interesting to note he said something about a wall failing to recognize the reason they are coming. We must have some very smart walls. They can think for themselves! But I thought we were building a fence? Who forgot to pass the memo?
Poss Comitatus act? Perhaps our military shouldn't be called upon to exercise police powers on non-fed land. Ok, but there was one or two caveats. 'except when authorized by congress or the constitution'. I bet he didn't think anyone else knew about that. Or that it pertains to 'state law enforcement capacity'. This is a federal issue which everyone seems to hammer on when they say the local cops need to leave the illegals alone. Hudson, please read the acts in their entirety before posting references to them. We're not all sitting here pressing the I believe button when you post something.
ProudUSC, if the churches are helping them out I suppose its ok as long as they don't over step their bounds. There is a separation of church and state. I kind of think this sort of situation is what was meant by that to begin with. Come to think of it. Wasn't the church's medaling in politics one of the reasons that drove people to come her way back when?
You voted democrat. This country is not worth sneaking into any more.
Posts: 5746 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
Yes Proud, It's encouraging to know the whole country hasn't lost it!! I was thinking, maybe we can research some articles on how the church is helping immigrants in crisis. I will send you what I find. Thanks for your research!! NHF
During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into
So using the LOWEST estimates, the annual cost OF ILLEGAL ALIENS is $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR! So if deporting them costs between $206 and $230 BILLION DOLLARS, get rid of em’, We’ll be ahead after the 1st year!!!
Si ustedes NO quieren APRENDER a INGLES, si NO quieren ASIMILAR, si NO quieren RESPETAR a las RAZAS, ETNICIDADES, CULTURAS, y RELGIONES que NO SON SUYAS, si NO quieren SALUDAR la bandera AMERICANA, LAS BARRAS Y LAS ESTRELLAS, si PROFANAN NUESTRA bandera por COLOCANDO a SU bandera ENCIMA de LA NUESTRA, ustedes NO LES MERECEN de VIVIR en ESTE pais, LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS de AMERICA, y ustedes DEBERIAN VOLVER a SUS PROPRIOS paises O SEAN DEPORTADOS, a TODOS de ustedes!
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