Another illegal alien happens to have a cocaine possession, and poss with intent, sales.
He sold cocaine to a police officer back in 1997 and got arrested, went to jail, did some time, then got 5 years probation for it......
Why is this guy still here?? I'm wondering if this guy can be positively affected by this amnesty???
This guy is effectively paper-less, no license or ID of any kind.... used his son's social security number to purchase a home... Also has all utilities in his son's name....
He went to jail and did the time like any US Citizen would. Why is that not enough?
I know criminality is a hot potato, and especially with life-style criminals I can understand that people want to deport them. But people also do make mistakes and the solution doesn't always immediately have to be banishment. Obviously this man has family in the USA who which be torn apart as well.
If someone does a crime he should do the TIME. That's what's been considered fair in the society, and I don't see why immigrants have to be always treated like the worst scum who just need excess and endless punishment for their mistakes. Where does this double standard come from?
Basically as an immigrant or a foreigner, you start with 2 strikes already.
He should be treated differently from an American citizen because he isn't one. He was here ILLEGALLY.
If he didn't want his family torn apart he shouldn't have a)brought them here and b)sold the cocaine.
I am tired of people trying to play the pity card for illegal aliens and criminals (one in the same). Don't villainize people like me for wanting to pay for their crimes ... all of their crimes. I don't want any children to suffer, but the first crime against those children was committed by the parents who used those children as citizenship lottery tickets.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that illegal aliens are here illegally. It took a crime to get them here ... they are not innocent victims.
The crime to come to America illegally is a misdemeanor. That means it's equivalent to shoplifting. So someone coming to USA illegally is not really a "hardened criminal". But this is also just the point. You're painting a picture of him as using children as lottery tickets, like that's the only dimension to this person. Like he's of extremely bad moral character already. Like he and his family deserves the worst they can get as this is pretty much his 15th strike already. This is the double standard I'm talking about.
This is not to say that he couldn't be deported for *being here illegally*.
I wasn't trying to paint him as a monster or that it was his only dimension, and to make such a claim is extraordinarily irresponsible. I was making the point that we are treated like monsters for saying that he should be deported. People make statements like "Obviously this man has family in the USA who which be torn apart as well." So many people seem to gloss over the fact that so many of these people have children here because it is a free ticket to resident status. He SHOULD be deported for being here illegally. He committed two crimes and he should be punished for both. There is no double standard ... just crime and punishment. Unfortunately, the bleeding hearts for these criminals don't see fit to punish them for their first crime against our laws ... their arrival on our soil.
You're talking about a crime, drug dealing, and that crime alone should be the central point of the discussion. When it comes to crimes, the criminal's danger to society is weighted against other mitigating circumstances such as family, hardship and previous conduct. That balance of equity and the binding regulations imposed by the sentencing guidelines is what defines the sentence of incarceration.
I failed to point out the fact that this guy used his son's SS number to buy his house and register utilities. If I recall this is a federal crime. That aside, what impact will that have on his son's future? I think this guy is painting quite a picture on his own.
Well it's hard for many people to see the crime that deserves a family to be torn apart. I mean it's like smoking marijuana. If there's no victim, is it really a crime? Is pursuit of happiness and a better life really a crime?
Perhaps the fitting punishment would be to deport him, but the law and many people's opinions go much further than that. Not only would he be deported, but he would be banned from America for life (due to the cocaine conviction). If he was deported, but had the same opportunities as anyone else to enter here LEGALLY again then that would be fair.
What I don't understand is why is it made difficult or even impossible for people to enter LEGALLY? What is the point with that? If people try and can enter legally, and they have some qualifications to do that, be it a job or family, then they should be able to do so. But there are so many provisions that make it impossible, like in this man's case. He would never be able to return. Due to that, a lot of decent and compassionate people just would HAVE to NOT deport him.
Hmmm ... no victim? See my post in the 'Illegal Mexican Exploitation' thread.
As for your idea that allowing him back in the country legally after his drug conviction, why? He has already broken two American laws as a non-citizen. Why would we want to allow someone like that in our country? We already have our own problems. I am not saying our drug dealers are better, I am just saying that we don't need new ones.
I agree that it is difficult to get into this country legally. Given that the goofus in the oval office just made it more difficult, things aren't going to get easier. However, let me present this case:
I want to live in a mansion and be a millionaire. Should I be allowed to stay in someone's mansion and use their money after I break in? In effect, the logic (or lack there of) behind the argument for illegal immigration makes that perfectly reasonable.
Drug dealing is generally a crime of intent and planning. There's no "criminal impulse" triggered by desperation, or ignorance of the law, or a misinterpreted court opinion. This is a crime that requires planning, substantial preparation, and involves massive amounts of money far beyond what some would consider enough to satisfy an immediate need. This crime cannot be compared to shoplifting a can of tuna to feed a hungry child.
Drug dealing is motivated, in most cases, by greed and a complete disregard for the well-being of society. There's absolutely no noble motive, it's all about acquiring vast amounts of money by criminal conduct that results in extreme damage, sometimes permanent, to those who are affected.
Victims? Drug dealing involves many victims other than the drug user. There's the family of that drug user, the friends, fellow employees and every person who lives in fear threatened by the ghost of drug addiction and the excruciating damage it causes on every victim, without exception.
I don't agree with penalizing drug dealers by removal alone. The crime should be penalized by the toughest sentences allowed under the criminal law AND by immediate removal without relief. The danger a drug dealer poses to society is far too great to be ignored. Again, this is not conduct triggered by a disease, by ignorance of the law or by some other conduct that merits special consideration. This is not a crime that results from a "one time only" spontaneous misconduct. This is a crime of intent, preparation and evil and should be punished as such.
Live for today and forget about tomorrow, life of a rodeo man...
Because a life sentence is too hard and people are given second chances everyday in a normal society. Not giving a second chance to someone just because they are an immigrant is a proof of the xenophobic nature that I was talking about. People change and sometimes good people get caught in bad circumstances. That's just life. Nearly every country in the world has the idea of rehabilitation and a time after which past actions or crimes are not held against you anymore. Not U.S. though. One mistake in life and you're a lifetime criminal? It's unreasonable. And we're talking about separating a family for life here. Some of these family members have exactly the same rights as you do. They have a right to have their parents with them (immigration wise). Sure, do the crime and do the time, anyone should agree with that. But when does do *any* crime and do a life with no possibility for parole become reasonable?
If someone breaks into a mansion yes he's put into jail or given probation in some instances. But he's not given a life sentence. So where is the logic or reasonability for giving him a life?
I agree, the sentence must fit the crime, it's a principle that's even protected at a constitutional level. People are removed on a regular basis on two counts of misdemeanor shoplifting, crimes that are disposed of in many cases by citation, crimes that do not carry the constitutional right to a jury trial and/or free counsel.
However, this is not about some misdemeanor, it's about a criminal enterprise that's so damaging in nature that it has corrupted and destroyed entire societies. Drug dealing is motivated by pure and simple greed; this is not about an alien working without authorization, it's about a criminal engaging in a well-defined criminal enterprise with horrific and deadly implications.
Live for today and forget about tomorrow, life of a rodeo man...
Originally posted by Houston: Drug dealing is generally a crime of intent and planning. There's no "criminal impulse" triggered by desperation, or ignorance of the law, or a misinterpreted court opinion. This is a crime that requires planning, substantial preparation, and involves massive amounts of money far beyond what some would consider enough to satisfy an immediate need. This crime cannot be compared to shoplifting a can of tuna to feed a hungry child.
Drug dealing is motivated, in most cases, by greed and a complete disregard for the well-being of society. There's absolutely no noble motive, it's all about acquiring vast amounts of money by criminal conduct that results in extreme damage, sometimes permanent, to those who are affected.
Victims? Drug dealing involves many victims other than the drug user. There's the family of that drug user, the friends, fellow employees and every person who lives in fear threatened by the ghost of drug addiction and the excruciating damage it causes on every victim, without exception.
I don't agree with penalizing drug dealers by removal alone. The crime should be penalized by the toughest sentences allowed under the criminal law AND by immediate removal without relief. The danger a drug dealer poses to society is far too great to be ignored. Again, this is not conduct triggered by a disease, by ignorance of the law or by some other conduct that merits special consideration. This is not a crime that results from a "one time only" spontaneous misconduct. This is a crime of intent, preparation and evil and should be punished as such.
I don't agree with that. Well organized drug dealing is planned yes, but again there have been instances where someone has done so out of desperation. And obviously they get caught because they are amateur and it's not in their nature. The real criminals rarely get caught since they "know the trade" and are often above the peddling.
Sure, drugs are not nice. They are bad in fact. But this insanity with drug war is out of proportion as well. The main victims are the drug users, out of their own addiction and then being punished by the society on top of that, which leaves a lasting record and drives them back into drug use. Drug dealers in some cases can be hardened criminals, in some, not. The de facto punishment should not be initially extreme, but should increase in magnitude if there is a lasting pattern of this behavior.
I understand that the punishment is constantly hardened since the problem is severe. But it doesn't justify extremely harsh punishments in ALL cases. This is like the minimum mandatory sentences where 18 year olds are sent to prison for 10 years for having *** with a 17 year old. You have to consider the circumstances on a case by case basis before making a full judgement of the character. IMO American punishment system is a bit out of control. America incarcerates more people than ANY other country. Including countries such as China, North Korea, Cuba, South Africa, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Syria, and so on... And MAJORITY of these people are there for victimless crimes (drugs, in many cases marijuana).
With all due respect, we're not talking about a guy giving a marihuana cigarette to a friend. We're talking about a cocaine dealer. Cocaine is not what courts describe as an "introductory drug", it's a hard drug and these operations usually involve substantial planning and very large amounts of money.
I would agree with you that immigration law ignores fundamental principles of rehabilitation and reform, it imposes extremely harsh penalties based on very minor offenses and seems to dangerously mix criminal and civil provisions without much consideration for due process.
But again, drug dealing, specially when it comes to the harder drugs, is not a light offense, not a one time crime, not a spur of the moment activity. The potential damage to society caused by drug trafficking and the high levels of intent necessary to commit the crime clearly mandates harsh and severe punishment.
Originally posted by Houston: With all due respect, we're not talking about a guy giving a marihuana cigarette to a friend. We're talking about a cocaine dealer. Cocaine is not what courts describe as an "introductory drug", it's a hard drug and these operations usually involve substantial planning and very large amounts of money.
I would agree with you that immigration law ignores fundamental principles of rehabilitation and reform, it imposes extremely harsh penalties based on very minor offenses and seems to dangerously mix criminal and civil provisions without much consideration for due process.
But again, drug dealing, specially when it comes to the harder drugs, is not a light offense, not a one time crime, not a spur of the moment activity. The potential damage to society caused by drug trafficking and the high levels of intent necessary to commit the crime clearly mandates harsh and severe punishment.
The real drug dealers can make it easy for someone desperate to work as a proxy between them and the customer. In this sense it can be perhaps somewhat planned, but the middle-person might not be the "real" dealer. However, I for the most part agree with you and I'm happy for your recognition of the mentioned flaws in the immigration system.
A) My mansion analogy was one for immigration. If I moved my family into that mansion, you wouldn't want me taken out because it would tear my family apart.
B) You are reaching on the different legal cases you present. An 18 year old and a 17 year old having consensual *** would be a crime that is an example of a law that needs to be re-evaluated. It is a 'crime' of passion. A drug deal takes intent. A drug deal takes thought, no matter what level of your conspiratorial drug cartel you fall into.
A) My mansion analogy was one for immigration. If I moved my family into that mansion, you wouldn't want me taken out because it would tear my family apart.
B) You are reaching on the different legal cases you present. An 18 year old and a 17 year old having consensual *** would be a crime that is an example of a law that needs to be re-evaluated. It is a 'crime' of passion. A drug deal takes intent. A drug deal takes thought, no matter what level of your conspiratorial drug cartel you fall into.
C) Quit making criminals the victim.
I'm not making criminals the victim. I'm trying to say there has to be some sort of reasonability and no excessive punishment.
There is one flaw in your mansion analogy. USA is not a single family mansion, it's a multi-million people community. If someone moved their family into the community yes you could argue that they don't have to be removed from it. Mansion is different since it has only a single family as an occupant meaning the "invading" family would take it over. So it's more of a "you or them", which is not the case when speaking about half of a continent.
I'm NOT saying you absolutely can't deport illegals, I'm saying there has to be reasonability for the consequences of illegal immigration and crimes as well. Meaning people should have more legal ways to immigrate. It doesn't mean there are no criterias. Those criterias should involve things like employment, skills and family. Criminality can be a ground for exclusion, but there has to be a rehabilitation period. Anyone who is willing to work hard for it and show good moral character, even if he had indiscretions in the past, *should be allowed to immigrate legally, easily and in timely manner with no strings attached*. Simple as that.
When it comes to rehabilitation there's already a "period" that applies to all grounds of criminal inadmissibility. The period is 15 years regardless of the offense. That period applies to all sorts of crimes, from a shoplifting conviction to manslaughter and armed robbery. I cannot agree with such a rigid approach, it's simply incompatible with the very foundation of the criminal system. Some crimes should trigger permanent inadmissibility, others only temporary inadmissibility with special consideration for the nature and implications of the offense and the information provided by the record of conviction.
Originally posted by Houston: When it comes to rehabilitation there's already a "period" that applies to all grounds of criminal inadmissibility. The period is 15 years regardless of the offense. That period applies to all sorts of crimes, from a shoplifting conviction to manslaughter and armed robbery. I cannot agree with such a rigid approach, it's simply incompatible with the very foundation of the criminal system. Some crimes should trigger permanent inadmissibility, others only temporary inadmissibility with special consideration for the nature and implications of the offense and the information provided by the record of conviction.
Are you speaking of a hardship waiver? Isn't that only applicable to past permanent residents with US Citizen children? And even in those cases not for ALL crimes? Or is there something else I don't know of?
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