Originally posted by Kollerkrot: ....but since I am already wound up about this, tell me what you plan to do about all the illegal and the overcrowded schools (except for pointing). The parents (most of them) don't speak English, because (also as you stated) because the government is/has been catering to them as far as language needs. It's a rather grim situation isn't it?
The children that are here, are as you also stated American Citizens and the American government has to honor that. Is your plan to deport their parents and make them all orphans, and have the social system take care of that then too - pretty unrealistic thought.
You know what? I don't have a solution to all this mess. I'll take care of me and mine and expect from the rest to do the same.
It's quite easy: do what other countries do--enforce the laws for a change!
Do away with birthright citizenship like all the other countries (including Germany).
Problem solved....
And yes, I do what I can. I am in touch with my elected officals and expressing my concerns to them. I vote.
In fact, I work for social services. And BTW, my husband happens to be a legal immigrant.
And what are YOUR suggestions? Let everyone who wants to come in? A free for all?
The reason why I mentioned that is to show that a crowded class doens't mean you have got to have bad grades or a low educational level. I believe strongly it has to do with us as parents. I have expectations of my children and it is MY job to make sure that they get any help to fulfil those expectations- that of course requires my presence and my doing.
Maybe an other example would explain it better. Let's take driving a car..... Of course i expect other people to drive carefully so they don't cause any accidents with me, BUT when I go somewhere I assume that the other drivers make mistakes and drive in a way that gives me the chance to correct somebody else's mistake.
The same with school, I assume that teachers don't always do their job as they maybe should. Therefore ( since I want the best for my child) I do what I can so my child meets my expectations even if this means i do part of the teachers job. It doesn't get my son a job if he would say later on " well, I am stupid because my teacher didn't do his job" Who cares who's fault it was that the teacher didn't do his job, because at the end it is my son who has the lacking education and therefore it will always be MY fault if I didn't do my best.
People need to quit blaming other people for their mistakes, lack of action or inadequacy because it does't get them nowhere. Other people will always make mistakes, take responsibility for you own life ( and you childrens life- this is why they are minors) and live you life that it doens't affect your life to much if others mess up. Does this make more sense now?
Oh and I didn't expect to many people here knowing what a NC was, I don't think they even have that here
This is the post that I made refrence to. I then proceeded to say, "if you are waiting for Americans to stop blaiming.....you are seriously in the wrong country.
...why did I say it? I think that nothing will change. Americans do blame others for their failurs...and by saying that, I don't just mean with the illegal issue, but with other things too. If one American is doing something wrong, he is always trying to pin it on another/or other thing. It's just something that I have noticed over the many years that I have been here. Do you want me to actually give you examples? If so, I will think about some over the weekend and list them for you.
"...even God fights stupidity to no avail"! - Friedrich Schiller
Originally posted by Kollerkrot: This is the post that I made refrence to. I then proceeded to say, "if you are waiting for Americans to stop blaiming.....you are seriously in the wrong country.
...why did I say it? I think that nothing will change. Americans do blame others for their failurs...and by saying that, I don't just mean with the illegal issue, but with other things too. If one American is doing something wrong, he is always trying to pin it on another/or other thing. It's just something that I have noticed over the many years that I have been here. Do you want me to actually give you examples? If so, I will think about some over the weekend and list them for you.
Don't you think that's generalizing even to the point of being racist to say ALL Americans blame others for their failures? Sure, some probably do, but don't you think people in other countries do the same?
we can't expect the gov't to do everything, we must help the authorities, we can start by not hiring any illegal, don't buy anything from countries like china, mexico, africa, and I mean ANYTHING. Someone said I wrote "conspiracy" no, it's not conspiracy, I give FACTS, just the FACTS. I can see the attorneys trembling once we, the people, take charge of this problem.
Originally posted by Kollerkrot: ....but since I am already wound up about this, tell me what you plan to do about all the illegal and the overcrowded schools (except for pointing). The parents (most of them) don't speak English, because (also as you stated) because the government is/has been catering to them as far as language needs. It's a rather grim situation isn't it?
The children that are here, are as you also stated American Citizens and the American government has to honor that. Is your plan to deport their parents and make them all orphans, and have the social system take care of that then too - pretty unrealistic thought.
You know what? I don't have a solution to all this mess. I'll take care of me and mine and expect from the rest to do the same.
It's quite easy: do what other countries do--enforce the laws for a change!
Do away with birthright citizenship like all the other countries (including Germany).
Problem solved....
And yes, I do what I can. I am in touch with my elected officals and expressing my concerns to them. I vote.
In fact, I work for social services. And BTW, my husband happens to be a legal immigrant.
And what are YOUR suggestions? Let everyone who wants to come in? A free for all?
Do away with the birthright citizenship - if this is what it takes - let's go for it. Ireland amended its constitution to that effect just about 2 years ago.
Come in all for free - definitely not! While I am not a people hater, I do realize that America is in a very bad spot (bordering on Mexico) as far as the masses immigrating from Mexico. Central Europe had the same problem after the Wall fell. I think in order to stop all the influx of Czechs Slovaks and Poles and all... they included them into the Union. This gave them an incentive to actually stay where they are and soon (if all works out) these countries will be strong and participating in the world trade just like the more advanced countries in Europe do today - at least this is what the European government thinks.
"...even God fights stupidity to no avail"! - Friedrich Schiller
Originally posted by SICKOFILLEGALS: we can't expect the gov't to do everything, we must help the authorities, we can start by not hiring any illegal, don't buy anything from countries like china, mexico, africa, and I mean ANYTHING. Someone said I wrote "conspiracy" no, it's not conspiracy, I give FACTS, just the FACTS. I can see the attorneys trembling once we, the people, take charge of this problem.
Sure, I think that's a noble idea! You go and start the rally. Make sure that you give all people enough money so that they can actually go and buy the American and European made stuff vs. the Mexican and Chinese made items. Also, don't forget to tell Sam Walmart, and all the others, that they soon are going to file for bankruptcy because everyone is boycotting Mexican and Chinese made wares and that they will have to buy from American manufacturers only, reducing their profit tremendeously.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kollerkrot,
"...even God fights stupidity to no avail"! - Friedrich Schiller
The reason why I mentioned that is to show that a crowded class doens't mean you have got to have bad grades or a low educational level. I believe strongly it has to do with us as parents. I have expectations of my children and it is MY job to make sure that they get any help to fulfil those expectations- that of course requires my presence and my doing.
Maybe an other example would explain it better. Let's take driving a car..... Of course i expect other people to drive carefully so they don't cause any accidents with me, BUT when I go somewhere I assume that the other drivers make mistakes and drive in a way that gives me the chance to correct somebody else's mistake.
The same with school, I assume that teachers don't always do their job as they maybe should. Therefore ( since I want the best for my child) I do what I can so my child meets my expectations even if this means i do part of the teachers job. It doesn't get my son a job if he would say later on " well, I am stupid because my teacher didn't do his job" Who cares who's fault it was that the teacher didn't do his job, because at the end it is my son who has the lacking education and therefore it will always be MY fault if I didn't do my best.
People need to quit blaming other people for their mistakes, lack of action or inadequacy because it does't get them nowhere. Other people will always make mistakes, take responsibility for you own life ( and you childrens life- this is why they are minors) and live you life that it doens't affect your life to much if others mess up. Does this make more sense now?
Oh and I didn't expect to many people here knowing what a NC was, I don't think they even have that here
This is the post that I made refrence to. I then proceeded to say, "if you are waiting for Americans to stop blaiming.....you are seriously in the wrong country.
...why did I say it? I think that nothing will change. Americans do blame others for their failures...and by saying that, I don't just mean with the illegal issue, but with other things too. If one American is doing something wrong, he is always trying to pin it on another/or other thing. It's just something that I have noticed over the many years that I have been here. Do you want me to actually give you examples? If so, I will think about some over the weekend and list them for you.
Hey Koller - stop bad mouthing my country!!!! Americans have plenty to complain about. Since 9/11, we are suspicious of every foreigner on our soil - why? Because since we've been a welcoming country - allowing all of this immigrant nonsense to go on, our soils were attacked unprovoked! Maybe you weren't near any of the sights of attack, but I was. To see the Pentagon on fire - chaos everywhere - crazy $hit - maybe that's why we're not as acceptive as we were before. Were you here on 9/11? If so, did you give a krap? Maybe that's why we are casting blame, then. You people come here, $ucking the life out of us and then turn around and have no allegiance to us at all - just bad mouthing every chance you get. In my opinion, you should either love this country or leave it.
ProudUSC: I am not even going to answer to you. You are just coming on here bursting into the conversation by picking up a couple of words and redirecting the conversation.
I have no time for you!
"...even God fights stupidity to no avail"! - Friedrich Schiller
Sure those reasons contribute to the problem, however, schools with less crowded classrooms have overall higher test scores than those with more students. I still say overcrowding is one of the biggest problems and stand by my opinion.
I respectfully agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]
Ok I think we agree on the fact that some USC children of some illegal immigrants drain the welfare system as well as some USC children bornt to USC parents drain the welfare system.
I don't really know if classrooms are crowded because of illegal immigrants, but if so wouldn't be a solution to split that overcrowded class? Split the class- one more job opening- smaller class, I think it is easy.
Where we do not argree is that over-crowded classes are the reason for the lack of education in the US. You stated that you think that this is one of the biggest problems. I said that I graduated with around 360 students and had good grades. Maybe it is more difficult to teach a classroom with 35 students but hello? that is what the teacher gets paid for. That is her job- that is what she is supposedly trained for. And just in case she fails to do her job ( for what reason ever) it is the parents duty to make sure the child is up to date with the curriculum. No matter how big a class is, if the parents sit down and oversee the homework and study for a test the child will alway be up to date ( assuming we don't talk about a disabled child).
So yes in a way you do blame illegals for something what would be your responsibility- if you love you child and want the best for him/ her.
I think the low educational level in the US has it's roots somewhere else. You curriculums ( actually it is curricula) are set to low. Did you know that for example if you finish the Gymnasium ( kinda like high school) it counts here as college credits? What the German school considers commen knowledge is considered credits for college here? we expect most of our students to have that common or basic knowledge where here in the US you just need that if you go to college. The school system in the US teaches memorizing, but not to use the memorized information in a different context, they don't teach abstract thinking and they don't teach students an efficiant way to study by themselfes and solve problems. An other big problem in my opinion here is, that money and athletic performance determinates if you can go to college and not your brain power. In Germany universities are free and the only way you can go to a university is if you have the grades ( or NC) they require. Nobody cares how much money you have or how good you play football. I think the priorities here are mixed up a little bit. I think that is why american educational level is so low compared to the rest of the world.
Kollerkrot - I'm not trying to antagonize you or make you angry. Go back and look at your own postings - how much animosty you have against this country! Read them and tell me if I'm wrong. Your allegience is to your country of origin and it always will be. So, why didn't you stay there? You are raising children on American soil. I can't even fathom the slant you've passed onto them about this country - their country of birth! We don't need foreigners coming to this country to reap the goods and snub their noses at us. I put you in this category. Love us or leave us!
Sure those reasons contribute to the problem, however, schools with less crowded classrooms have overall higher test scores than those with more students. I still say overcrowding is one of the biggest problems and stand by my opinion.
I respectfully agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]
Ok I think we agree on the fact that some USC children of some illegal immigrants drain the welfare system as well as some USC children bornt to USC parents drain the welfare system.
I don't really know if classrooms are crowded because of illegal immigrants, but if so wouldn't be a solution to split that overcrowded class? Split the class- one more job opening- smaller class, I think it is easy.
Where we do not argree is that over-crowded classes are the reason for the lack of education in the US. You stated that you think that this is one of the biggest problems. I said that I graduated with around 360 students and had good grades. Maybe it is more difficult to teach a classroom with 35 students but hello? that is what the teacher gets paid for. That is her job- that is what she is supposedly trained for. And just in case she fails to do her job ( for what reason ever) it is the parents duty to make sure the child is up to date with the curriculum. No matter how big a class is, if the parents sit down and oversee the homework and study for a test the child will alway be up to date ( assuming we don't talk about a disabled child).
So yes in a way you do blame illegals for something what would be your responsibility- if you love you child and want the best for him/ her.
I think the low educational level in the US has it's roots somewhere else. You curriculums ( actually it is curricula) are set to low. Did you know that for example if you finish the Gymnasium ( kinda like high school) it counts here as college credits? What the German school considers commen knowledge is considered credits for college here? we expect most of our students to have that common or basic knowledge where here in the US you just need that if you go to college. The school system in the US teaches memorizing, but not to use the memorized information in a different context, they don't teach abstract thinking and they don't teach students an efficiant way to study by themselfes and solve problems. An other big problem in my opinion here is, that money and athletic performance determinates if you can go to college and not your brain power. In Germany universities are free and the only way you can go to a university is if you have the grades ( or NC) they require. Nobody cares how much money you have or how good you play football. I think the priorities here are mixed up a little bit. I think that is why american educational level is so low compared to the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
Sure we would love to be able to split the classes into smaller ones. You make it sound so easy...And how do you propose we pay for this? Don't you think we would have done this already if it were so easy? The schools are already underfunded and the cost of doing this would be very high. That would mean hiring more teachers and needing more room. Many of the schools have the children in trailers because they cannot afford to add on or build more schools. No matter what you believe, MOST ILLEGALS DO NOT PAY TAXES. We are paying for them and their children. And you don't seem to realize how many children of illegals there really are in the school systems. If you consider the numbers of illegals and most do have more than 3 children (this is not based on speculation, I see it in the social services field I am in and my colleages do as well). And by the way, I have worked all over the US, it is not just California. I know you said you pay taxes, and I commend you for this, but the fact remains most don't.
So you went through elementary school all the way through high school with 360 students and one teacher? That is commendable. The "No Child Left Behind" act was actually put in place because of the illegals. There were so many students put in the schools here speaking only Spanish and not a word of English so we have to pay for ESL (English as a second langauge) teachers on top of the regular ones and they were also far behind American students. It is this act that lowered the curriculum (Curricula) so the children of the illegals would be able to align themselves with the other students and wouldn't be "left behind". Yes, our standards are too low; they used to be much higher.
I am not sure what you mean by this: "Did you know that for example if you finish the Gymnasium ( kinda like high school) it counts here as college credits?" If you are referring to our physical education classes (GYM), the university I attended never gave credit for those classes and I have never heard of one that did. The only high school classes they give Univeristy credit for are AP (advanced placement) classes after having completed them with a satisfactory grade and passing an AP exam on the class. These classes are specifically for high school students who are advanced enough to take university level classes in high school.
Yes there are athletic scholorships available. Because our Universities aren't free like in Germany (in fact they are VERY expensive) this is the only way many people can ever have the opportunity to attend. BTW, they don't just take anyone, there are exams you must pass to be admitted. Gee, maybe we can re-route all the money for the illegal's social services and free medical care to fund free Universities for Americans?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: desertrose2002,
No obviously I don't realize how many illegals have children here in school. Maybe it is because I don't live close to a border.
What do you mean the schools have no money? Last year $60 of my $ 230 property tax what to the school, what do they do with that money? I don't pay for lunch since my son is unable to eat by mouth ( I send his special food) but I do pay that book rental fee ($ 93!), where my son doesn't even has books plus I pay that paper fee, and that copy fee. I pay for all the stuff my son doesn't even use.
An othe suggestion would be that you raise your taxes like the countries in Europe have it.
No I said I graduated with around 360 other students. And no it was not one teacher, itwas one teacher for each subject.
No child left behind.. my son benefits from that due to his disability. Now we are back to that spanish language problem. I don't have a solution for that, do you?
Gymnasium not the gym. The Gymnasium is the school you go to, you would call it High School here. The only difference ( next to the academic level)is that we go 13 years to High School (Gymnasium)
Yes there are athletic scholorships available. Because our Universities aren't free like in Germany (in fact they are VERY expensive) this is the only way many people can ever have the opportunity to attend. BTW, they don't just take anyone, there are exams you must pass to be admitted. Gee, maybe we can re-route all the money for the illegal's social services and free medical care to fund free Universities for Americans
Aeh, that argument doesn't work with me. Germany ( and I can just always talk about that country because I know how it is there) has plenty of illegal and legal immigrant ( and Germans) who drain the system and still our colleges are free. I think you need to have brain power and not good football skills to attend college.
Originally posted by Vegado: No obviously I don't realize how many illegals have children here in school. Maybe it is because I don't live close to a border.
What do you mean the schools have no money? Last year $60 of my $ 230 property tax what to the school, what do they do with that money? I don't pay for lunch since my son is unable to eat by mouth ( I send his special food) but I do pay that book rental fee ($ 93!), where my son doesn't even has books plus I pay that paper fee, and that copy fee. I pay for all the stuff my son doesn't even use.
An othe suggestion would be that you raise your taxes like the countries in Europe have it.
No I said I graduated with around 360 other students. And no it was not one teacher, itwas one teacher for each subject.
No child left behind.. my son benefits from that due to his disability. Now we are back to that spanish language problem. I don't have a solution for that, do you?
Gymnasium not the gym. The Gymnasium is the school you go to, you would call it High School here. The only difference ( next to the academic level)is that we go 13 years to High School (Gymnasium)
Yes there are athletic scholorships available. Because our Universities aren't free like in Germany (in fact they are VERY expensive) this is the only way many people can ever have the opportunity to attend. BTW, they don't just take anyone, there are exams you must pass to be admitted. Gee, maybe we can re-route all the money for the illegal's social services and free medical care to fund free Universities for Americans
Aeh, that argument doesn't work with me. Germany ( and I can just always talk about that country because I know how it is there) has plenty of illegal and legal immigrant ( and Germans) who drain the system and still our colleges are free. I think you need to have brain power and not good football skills to attend college.
You do not have to live close to a border to see how many illegals are in the classrooms. It is getting to be more and more everywhere. The teachers can vouch for that.
Your son's book rental fee was only $93? That is cheap! My children's averaged $165 per child. Most illegals get fee waivers and don't have to pay any of these fees for their children (even if their children weren't born here and are not citizens) because they don't pay taxes and have no record of their income they are considered low income. Gee, maybe that is where your money is going?
So we should raise our taxes to cover up for all the services the illegals get for free while most of them pay no taxes? Good idea!
Our graduating classes have a LOT more than 360 students...and one teacher per subject? You were lucky.
It is not just the Spanish language problem. The children of the illegals were/are far behind our American students so they lowered the standards. Yes I have a solution as I stated in an earlier post: enforce our immigration laws like the other countries do and no birthright citizenship (if the parents are illegal, the children are too) like all other countries.
You said you go thirteen years to high school "The only difference ( next to the academic level)is that we go 13 years to High School (Gymnasium)." I think you meant 13 years to school total not only high school. Maybe this is because we have kindergarten plus 12 years?
I highly doubt Germany has near the level of illegals we do and I know for a fact they don't have birthright citizenship there. And tell me, do the children from illegals and illegals themselves get free medical and schooling, food stamps and welfare there? If they did and there were as many illegals there as here, I doubt even with the high taxes they would be able to offer free college.
I was thinking about this, your statement. I am normally not generalizing at all, but treat every individual with respect, as long as said individual shows respect. You, and others in here, however, do throw all illegals in one pot and judge them all the same. I think this is what caused me to bring about these generalizations also.
And PROUDUSA: I do love America, I however, as we have learned over several posts, don't love it the way you (personally) do, but I love it my way.
"...even God fights stupidity to no avail"! - Friedrich Schiller
I am sorry I was already so tired yesterday that I did not go in to detail; also my spelling is horrible- I appologize.
I said that I don't know how many illegal are in classrooms since, where I live we don't have to many- maybe I am the only one? But I believe you, since you worked with the welfare office, you know better than I do.
Yes I pay $93 for books, since my son just goes to 2. grade. I think it will go up when he enters middle school. But I still think it is funny that I ( and all the other parents) pay that since our kids don't have one single book.
I think you don't know enough about the German school system to know if I was lucky or not. There is now way you can compare the schools here with them from Germany or Switzerland.
Yes you are right of course we don't go 13 yrs to the Gymnasium - my mistake. We start Kindergarden at the age of 3 and stay there until we enter 1. grade. Then everybody has got to go at least 12 yrs to school, if you want to go to college you have to go 13 yrs. Our school system is very complex and would be to difficult to explain here. Just take my word that the requirements to even get to your final exam are incredible high and not to compare with the requirements here in the US.
About the bithright,do you mean that the children are no USC when both parents are illegal or even if just one is illegal ( like me)?
I think Germany has at least the same amount of immigrants than the US since Europe opened the borders. Just because the borders are open doen't mean they are allowed to work in Germany ( but they do anyway). I know Germany even has a hard time with immigrants, the Government has got to let everybody in, grant nearly every asylum since we lost WWII. So Desertrose, it is not that I don't understand where your opinion is comming from, it is very frustrating- believe me, I know!
My only reason why I posted in that thread was to say that not every illegal immigrant is they way people make it sound. I understand that maybe (!!) the majority is like that, but not everyone (look at me, Kollerkrot and probably others). My whole point was to say listen to every illegals story, and then decide if they are in the wrong or not. And maybe you will decide 100 times that the illegal is wrong, but then you will finde somebody like me, where it is not my fault ( yes I insist that it is not my fault) that my status in not clear.
I don't now if Germany has bithrights or not, but, yes, everybody in Germany gets free (if necessary) medical treatment, schooling and welfare. Actually we don't even have to pay welfare back ( like here),where I like that here better that you have got to pay it back, I wish my country would do that, too.
How high is you income tax here? 17 %? And a lot of people get taxes back in April or so. Compare that to 40%- 52% income taxes and NO tax refund, sure we can cover all that, we can even cover that our roads are in very good conditions. Like I said, it is not that I don't understand where you are coming from, but it is wrong to generalize all illegals, the same way it is wrong to say all American are e.g shallow.
Originally posted by Kollerkrot: I was thinking about this, your statement. I am normally not generalizing at all, but treat every individual with respect, as long as said individual shows respect. You, and others in here, however, do throw all illegals in one pot and judge them all the same. I think this is what caused me to bring about these generalizations also.
And PROUDUSA: I do love America, I however, as we have learned over several posts, don't love it the way you (personally) do, but I love it my way.
I am not generalizing and throwing all illegals in one pot. In post after post I say "most." And the reason I say most is because all the statistics prove it is most. Especially when both parents (partners) are illegal. In fact I have said nothing personally negative about illegals character, etc. Only how they affect our social services and country. You on the other hand, not only generalized and threw all Americans in one pot, you personally attacted Americans character.
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