quote:

Originally posted by Kollerkrot:

Of course having 35+ students in one class room complicates the situation even more in those particular areas/schools. However, the problem is much deeper than that, namely that the system is to blame, because you see the low education also in areas that have very little or no illegal immigrants, in affluent areas with classes below 20 students, and they still don't learn anything. A week curriculum, the political correctness issue, as well as the fear to be part of a law suit, which is actually not school related and which the teacher mentiones in her message, is an issue all over the country. Schools and teachers are afraid to dicipline children because of that.

Summing it up, in my opinion, Liberty and total respect for the law, just don't go well together.

It's like having your cake and eating it too!

Sure those reasons contribute to the problem, however, schools with less crowded classrooms have overall higher test scores than those with more students. I still say overcrowding is one of the biggest problems and stand by my opinion.

I respectfully agree to disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by Kollerkrot:

And that's why I cannot understand why anyone of middle class status would vote republican.

I don't and won't vote Republican or Democrat. One is as bad as the other. I vote Independent.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by desertrose2002:

Sure those reasons contribute to the problem, however, schools with less crowded classrooms have overall higher test scores than those with more students. I still say overcrowding is one of the biggest problems and stand by my opinion.

QUOTE]


Desertrose,

I agree with you that students in smaller classrooms are more likely to pay more attention- if they score higher depends on how smart they are.

I graduated with around 360 students, and I had a NC of 1,6 ( NC is a Numerus Clausus).

But I think the real problem is that the american parents leave the education completly up to the school.
The teachers job- as I see it- is to tell the student what the curriculum is, the parents job is to make sure that the child/ students understands the curriculum.
Of course that would mean that you sit an home and oversee their homework and study with them for exams. That of course is not possible for a lot of parents because they both need to work to pay for their exspenses.
But, do they really need to? Is it really more important to have 2 or 3 brand new cars in the driveway, a $1200 morgage payment, a 52" LCD TV and to dress the kids in Hilfiger?
Or could the parents cut down and live like the average person, and one parent stays home to make sure that the child understands what is expected from him/her?

I never understood why students do their homework at school, does't the word homework implicate that you do that work at home?

It takes a village to raise a child ... it doesn't say it takes one teacher.
Parents need to make their mind up what is more important to them, the above- the- needs- lifestyle or a good education for their child.
Stop blaming illegals for that problem, if parents do their job, the child will still score high in test no matter how many students are in the class.

quote:

Originally posted by Vegado:


Desertrose,

I agree with you that students in smaller classrooms are more likely to pay more attention- if they score higher depends on how smart they are.

I graduated with around 360 students, and I had a NC of 1,6 ( NC is a Numerus Clausus).

But I think the real problem is that the american parents leave the education completly up to the school.
The teachers job- as I see it- is to tell the student what the curriculum is, the parents job is to make sure that the child/ students understands the curriculum.
Of course that would mean that you sit an home and oversee their homework and study with them for exams. That of course is not possible for a lot of parents because they both need to work to pay for their exspenses.
But, do they really need to? Is it really more important to have 2 or 3 brand new cars in the driveway, a $1200 morgage payment, a 52" LCD TV and to dress the kids in Hilfiger?
Or could the parents cut down and live like the average person, and one parent stays home to make sure that the child understands what is expected from him/her?

I never understood why students do their homework at school, does't the word homework implicate that you do that work at home?

It takes a village to raise a child ... it doesn't say it takes one teacher.
Parents need to make their mind up what is more important to them, the above- the- needs- lifestyle or a good education for their child.
Stop blaming illegals for that problem, if parents do their job, the child will still score high in test no matter how many students are in the class.

I agree that parents need to take a more active roll in their children's education and oversee the homework and help if they are having trouble understanding, etc. This is exactly what I do with my children. My husband and I help them at home by making sure they are doing their homework and explaining what they are having trouble with. However, it is not only the teacher's job to present the curriculum to the students, it is also their job to TEACH; i.e. explain and help the children to understand. When there are so many in one crowded classroom, this is next to impossible. Which is why if parents want their children to succeed, they have to take a more active role at home (more than in the past) to make sure their children understand the lessons.

quote:

Originally posted by desertrose2002:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vegado:


[QUOTE] I graduated with around 360 students, and I had a NC of 1,6 ( NC is a Numerus Clausus).

Wow - you are a smarty, aren't you!

quote:

Originally posted by desertrose2002:

quote:

Originally posted by Vegado:
Desterrose,

BTW I always wondered why everything here in the US is in the spanish language also. Why do you do that?
In my fist few moth here I always draged a friend or a family member with me to appointments just for in case I would not understand everything ( they had the patience to explain it to me in different words) and now if I don't understand a word I just ask what it means.
What i am trying to say is, if not everything would be available in spanish maybe people would try to speak english since this is the language spoken here and everybody who whants to live here should speak at least a decent english.
I would and always did exspect that from people living in my country.
Any explanation for that?

Vegado,

I completely agree that Spanish speakers would be more likely to learn English if we didn't cater to them so much and have everything in Spanish for them. I can't tell you how many times I have been in the check-out line at the grocery store and heard a Spanish speaker cuss out and insult the cashier (in Spanish) because the Spanish speaker asks/tells the cashier something in Spanish and the cashier does not understand. I do not expect any foreigner to come to this country and immediately speak English. But they cannot expect everything to be in their language either just as I wouldn't expect everything to be in English when I visit their country. And if I am going to live there, I sure would "go to the trouble" to learn the language. As long as we have everything in Spanish for them, there will be no incentive to learn English.

Last years reform proposal would've made it mandatory to learn English to an eigth grade level. That doesn't sound like much but it's enough to communicate. I think it excluded people age 50 and over. Surely something to this same extent will be proposed again. As far as I know I've not known any Spanish-speaking persons to have "expected" everything to be written in Spanish. Of my own family members I had two uncles who were born and raised in the U.S. and didn't speak English and got along very well. They would both be near 80 y.o. now if still living. Fortunately most all family members are bilingual which today is an asset.

I've been under the assumption that the corporations decided to market their products with bilingual labeling. They wouldn't have done so until there was a profitable market. Even if they had "expected" or "demanded" bilingual labeling, etc. corporations and businesses aren't going to kow-tow to them and do so until there is money to be made. I do recall Toys-R-Us changing their stand on the eligibility ruling for the Asian child that was born of non-US citizens. (I think this was the New Year's baby) The company wasn't going to award the family but later decided to do so by giving them and the other American family both an award. The publicity didn't help and it would've hurt their business in the future. So, they knew what they were doing.

Corporations have no interest in who learns English as long as they can make money from selling their product. As for businesses posting signs, Home Depot and Wal-Mart and others do in the predominately Hispanic areas of cities but not in all of their stores. As another response stated, not all foreigners are befriended by Americans so therefore they stay within their own communities. Labeling in only English might be an incentive for some to learn English but I think they would familiarize themselves with certain products, labels, signs, etc. with which they frequent most, not going beyond that. Usually someone is with them that is bilingual and eliminates an urgent need to learn. A lot of foreigners purchase items at stores within their communities to begin with. Corporations want to lure them away and bring them into their stores. If consumers can't read the labels at the major supermarkets they can always resort back to their local area or any other competitor. Large corporations wouldn't benefit from that. Much marketing research is done on products. In one northern state a particular brand of roach spray wasn't selling. The reason they found was because culturally in that Anglo area it was considered a total disgrace to have roaches. The label was changed minimizing the word roaches and the product began selling. Hispanics in Texas were not purchasing liquid laundry detergent as expected. The company found out they preferred the powder detergent of which they were more accustomed. Whether it's the product of choice to market or the language on the labelling, the company doesn't care. Hence, the almighty dollar.

In one of the southern border towns Wal-Mart, Pizza Patron and another main store allow the exchange of pesos. Pizza Patron near Dallas accepts the Peso although they've been critized because their not near the border. Critics think they're too far inland for this. Give it a few years and bilingual labeling will be an issue of the past and the exchange of Pesos will be the hottest topic. Some think as long as it's along the border that's okay. Othrs state they've used U.S. currency in other countries so what's the big deal? And we still don't use the metric system so maybe we need to more forward. Check out the Wickopedia definition of legal tender.

[/QUOTE]

Wow - you are a smarty, aren't you! [/QUOTE]

I assume this was not ironically. Let's put it this way, I am not stupid.

The reason why I mentioned that is to show that a crowded class doens't mean you have got to have bad grades or a low educational level. I believe strongly it has to do with us as parents. I have expectations of my children and it is MY job to make sure that they get any help to fulfil those expectations- that of course requires my presence and my doing.

Maybe an other example would explain it better.
Let's take driving a car..... Of course i expect other people to drive carefully so they don't cause any accidents with me, BUT when I go somewhere I assume that the other drivers make mistakes and drive in a way that gives me the chance to correct somebody else's mistake.

The same with school, I assume that teachers don't always do their job as they maybe should. Therefore ( since I want the best for my child) I do what I can so my child meets my expectations even if this means i do part of the teachers job.
It doesn't get my son a job if he would say later on " well, I am stupid because my teacher didn't do his job"
Who cares who's fault it was that the teacher didn't do his job, because at the end it is my son who has the lacking education and therefore it will always be MY fault if I didn't do my best.

People need to quit blaming other people for their mistakes, lack of action or inadequacy because it does't get them nowhere.
Other people will always make mistakes, take responsibility for you own life ( and you childrens life- this is why they are minors) and live you life that it doens't affect your life to much if others mess up.
Does this make more sense now?

Oh and I didn't expect to many people here knowing what a NC was, I don't think they even have that here

Vegado, if your Numerus Clausus is 1.6, that is great. It is better than mine and what I said was a complement rather than anything else.

For our American Friends, that don't know what Numerus Clausus is, here is an explanation.

Numerus clausus in Germany
The numerus clausus is currently used in Germany to address overcrowding and protect specific occupations - while the number of students has increased by 100% to two million since 1980, the number of professors has increased by only 25% in the same time period.

The German state in which an Abitur is granted must honor the permission to study at a university.

The numerus clausus is a way to select among competing applicants in particularly popular fields at particular universities, by limiting the pool of qualifying applicants. Currently, the selection depends primarily on the field of study, the respective German state, and the Abitur grade point average.

As an illustration, if you wanted to study medicine in 2003, then the qualifying Abitur grade you would need would depend in part on the state in which you applied: to secure a place at a university in Baden-W�rttemberg you would need a minimum score of 1.8 on a scale of 1.0 (best) to 4.0 (worst); to secure a place in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, 2.4 could be a qualifying score. About a quarter of those admitted, however, are selected from a waiting list of unsuccessful applicants from previous years.

The numerus clausus is limited to particular universities for many fields, but for the most popular (such as medicine or biology), it is nationwide, with enrollment handled centrally by the Zentralstelle f�r die Vergabe von Studienpl�tzen (ZVS).

As to your taking care of your children, that is wonderful. However, if you are waiting for Americans to stop blaiming someone else for their failurs - you are seriously in the wrong country. In America, it is always someone else's fault.

quote:

Originally posted by Kollerkrot:
As to your taking care of your children, that is wonderful. However, if you are waiting for Americans to stop blaiming someone else for their failurs - you are seriously in the wrong country. In America, it is always someone else's fault.

I hardly think pointing how the 12 million+ illegals are overwhelming our social services and schools is "blaiming someone else for their failurs." If you are so anti-American, you always have the choice to leave.....

I am not anti-American, I am just smart and I see things for what they are.

quote:

Originally posted by Kollerkrot:
I am not anti-American, I am just smart and I see things for what they are.

If you really are so smart and "see things as they are" how can you possibly think illegals coming here by the millions upon millions will not adversely affect this country? And then when Americans speak out about it (which is our right) you claim we are blaming OUR failures on others? I would love to hear what these failures are...Sounds pretty arrogant and hypocritical to me.

[/QUOTE]
If you really are so smart and "see things as they are" how can you possibly think illegals coming here by the millions upon millions will not adversely affect this country? And then when Americans speak out about it (which is our right) you claim we are blaming OUR failures on others? I would love to hear what these failures are...Sounds pretty arrogant and hypocritical to me.[/QUOTE]

I was making direct reference to what Vegado said about schools and homework. I don't have the time to go and dig through all the post, but I also made reference that the illegal in heavy populated areas are only partially to blame for the inadequacy of the American schools, whereas you made it sound as though the American schools are lacking behind academically because of the illegal.

My children went to affluent schools with no illegal and still did not receive a good education – at least not what I consider good education.

First off my husband is not a gang banger, not a drunk,and he is not a criminal. yes he is illegal but he also works hard everyday to support me because i became to ill to work. he is working harder now so that i a white woman doesn't half to go on welfare or get public aide. so before you mouth off that they are all the same maybe you should get your facts right. there are good and bad people of all races. and we happened to have gang bangers long before they showed up i mean look at la the bloods and the crypts and the mob and the kkk which happens to be americans wow wierd huh but all the blame goes on illegal aliens they are just here trying to make a better life for themselves. maybe if you lived in thier situation maybe you would make the same choices. i have seen first hand the horrible living conditions. no food no water if i was them then i would probally make the same choice. if interested im starting a new website at fightforwhatyoubelieve.com it is going to show true pictures of living conditions and lots of other things. i understand that those who pay taxes are mad well maybe if you gave them the chance they would gladly pay taxes and ss and medicare and everything else.

....but since I am already wound up about this, tell me what you plan to do about all the illegal and the overcrowded schools (except for pointing). The parents (most of them) don't speak English, because (also as you stated) because the government is/has been catering to them as far as language needs. It's a rather grim situation isn't it?

The children that are here, are as you also stated American Citizens and the American government has to honor that. Is your plan to deport their parents and make them all orphans, and have the social system take care of that then too - pretty unrealistic thought.

You know what? I don't have a solution to all this mess. I'll take care of me and mine and expect from the rest to do the same.

we don't want you here for the same reasons Europe and a couple of South American countries don't want you either. Is is the duty of YOUR OWN GOVERNMENTS TO PROVIDE FOR YOU not the U.S. or Chile or Germany, or France. The U.S. has millions of people to do the work ILLEGALS DO, starting with the able bodies living off Welfare, also the the inmates who now get three meals a day, cable t.v. internet, medical/dental attention, and so on. Yes WE HAVE MILLIONS OF PEOPE RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S. WE DON'T NEED THESE DAMM ILLEGALS.

this info. is for the Americans, usually the last ones to know what's going on in the world. The Chinese Secret Service installed the latest spying equipment in the south of Cuba. They can hear everything, they intercept everything the DEA and other intelligence services are trying to do to stop the massive quantities being shipped to the U.S. Europe and South America. The Chinese Secret Service works together with the Mexican Government. Yet, I still see Americans buying mexican and chinese products, you patronize their restaurants, and even visit those places. There's something wrong with this picture.

I meant to say "the massive quantities of drugs from Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, Peru and Bolivia" they ship to the U.S. with the help of Cuba and their Chinese friends and Mexico.

I smell conspiricy theory!

<Now where is my tinfoil hat!>