Romney cans illegal immigrant landscapers

By Sam Youngman
Posted: 12/04/07 06:39 PM [ET]
December 04, 2007

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney (R), who has come under fire from his rivals for employing illegal aliens, announced Tuesday evening he was ending ties to a landscaping company because it hires such workers.

The company Romney fired is the same one he had employed before for a reported 10 years. It has caused him repeated headaches during his presidential bid as the GOP debate has largely focused on immigration issues.

In a letter to Ricardo Saenz, owner of Community Lawn Service in Chelsea, Mass., Romney said he learned the company was breaking the law after he had given it a second chance.

“Today, I fired a landscaping company that I learned was employing people who are not permitted to work here in the United States,” Romney wrote. “After this same issue arose last year, I gave the company a second chance with very specific conditions. They were instructed to make sure people working for the company were of legal status. We personally met with the company in order to inform them about the importance of this matter. The owner of the company guaranteed us, in very certain terms, that the company would be in total compliance with the law going forward.

“The company's failure to comply with the law is disappointing and inexcusable, and I believe it is important I take this action.”

Romney’s campaign said the former governor “took immediate action to terminate the lawn service company in question” after he learned it was employing illegal aliens.

It was unclear at press time how Romney learned the company was again violating the law. The campaign did not respond to a question asking if he learned of it from an internal check or from external criticism.

Romney’s rivals, including former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, have battled intensely over immigration issues throughout the campaign.

In a recent debate, after Romney again accused Giuliani of running a so-called sanctuary city, Giuliani responded that Romney had run a “sanctuary mansion” during his time as governor of Massachusetts.

According to a report from the Boston Globe in December 2006, Saenz is a legal resident from Colombia.

Immigrant Who Saved Boy Recognized at Border Ceremony

Posted on December 4, 2007 by symsess

Manuel Cordova reminds us that we are all humans and that there are many decent human being out there. His decision to enter the US without proper documentation does not make him a violent person, a terrible person, nor should it leave him open to ridiculous subhuman insults. It’s nice to see he’s being recognized for his bravery in his decision to risk being caught to save a child.

Immigrant Who Saved Boy Recognized at Border Ceremony
December 4th, 2007 @ 4:46am
by Associated Press

An illegal immigrant who rescued a 9-year-old boy from the southern Arizona desert will be recognized for his actions at a ceremony Tuesday morning in Nogales.

The ceremony is set to begin at 10 a.m. for Manuel Jesus Cordova Soberanes

This message has been edited. Last edited by: explora,

Immigrant Advocates Coach on Avoiding Arrest

NPR (National Public Radio)
by Jennifer Ludden
November 29, 2007
Listen Now [4 min 20 sec] add to playlist

Hispanic activists protest against immigration raids across the country at a rally in Los Angeles in December. Getty

Morning Edition, November 29, 2007 · In the past two years, the immigration agency has dramatically stepped up arrests of illegal immigrants in workplaces and in their homes.

In response, immigrant rights advocates have been holding "know your rights" seminars that coach people on how to avoid arrest.

Gloria Contreras-Edin of Centro Legal has held nearly two dozen of these seminars since an immigration raid in a Minnesota prairie town last spring.

She says she wants people to be prepared if immigration agents come to their homes.

Legal Affairs 101

"They're going to knock very loudly," she says, banging on a chair. "An ugly knock. But don't open the door. The only way immigration can force their way into your home is with a search warrant."

One man can't believe this. He asks if the authorities can enter with a deportation order?

"No," Contreras-Edin says. "They still need your permission."

She tells the group the immigration agency has a tip line and warns them not to talk about their immigration status at work if they are undocumented.

And if agents do show up, they need probable cause to arrest you, she says. So, don't give them any!

Contreras-Edin leans into the face of a woman in the front row and asks, "Where are you from?"

The woman is silent, and Contreras-Edin says that is the right response.

She warns immigration agents will even try to get information from children. She looks at two boys in the front row and clasps her hands over her mouth. They giggle, and then they do the same.

A number of people in this group are legal residents or citizens, but they are worried about unauthorized relatives.

Contreras-Edin sees her role as helping these families avoid separation. She says even legal residents often don't know they don't have to answer a federal agent's questions.

"They have the right to remain silent. They don't have to prove that they're citizens. I couldn't prove that I'm a citizen, and most people can't," she says.

Odds of Arrest Are Slim

Critics contend these sessions are aiding a crime by helping illegal immigrants stay in the country.

In Washington, D.C., Immigration and Customs Enforcement does not make that charge, but officials do see an impact.

John Torres, who heads the office of Detention and Removal, says his agents are finding more people who refuse to open their doors to agents.

"What that means for us is it makes our job a little bit harder. We have to expend more time, effort and taxpayer money to get the job done," Torres says. "But what we'll do is, in some instances, we may wait until the person comes out. Or, we may do more significant surveillance and arrest them at a location outside their residence."

At the Saint Paul, Minn., meeting, a woman who gave her name as Selenia says she is a legal resident, but her husband and two children are not.

She is so worried about the increase in arrests that she kept the children inside on Halloween this year, and she says many people now go out only for essential errands.

As the meeting winds down, Contreras-Edin hands out a packet of forms. In case of arrest, families can delegate the care of a child and sign over their power of attorney for financial matters.

Some Latino advocates note that, despite ramped up enforcement, the odds of being arrested still remain slim.

Contreras-Edin says 200,000 immigrants were deported from the interior of the country last year.

Listen Now [4 min 20 sec] add to playlist

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16727309&ft=1&f=1003

ARKANSAS, FT. SMITH

Fort Smith Senator Apologizes For Immigration Remarks

This article was published on Friday, November 30, 2007 9:10 PM CST in News
By Rusty Garrett
TIMES RECORD

FORT SMITH - Sen. Denny Altes issued an apology Thursday for racially charged remarks on immigration he made in an e-mail made public Wednesday.

Through the day Thursday, reactions to the statement were issued by several groups, including a state Senate official, ranking members of the state Republican and Democratic parties, and civil rights groups that have been critical of some of Altes' past stands.

Some indicated the Republican from Fort Smtih may need to restate his regrets more strongly. Some think Altes should resign.

The message also attracted the attention of Gov. Mike Bebee, who criticized the remarks through a statement issued by his office.

In an e-mail to former Fort Smith Mayor Bill Vines earlier this week, Altes reportedly said "we are being outpopulated by the blacks" and called for sending illegal immigrants back to their home countries.

Altes, who told the Associated Press he did not consider the remarks racist, said, "I apologize and I am sorry if it hurt anyone's feelings. ... I'm sorry if it offended anyone."



Beebe criticized Altes' remarks, and a spokesman said the Democratic governor was glad to see an apology for the e-mail.

"Controversial topics require level-headed, civil discussion, not divisive and insensitive remarks, such as those made by Senator Altes," Beebe said in a statement released by his office. "As leaders, we must set a good example of thoughtful discourse, especially when it comes to impassioned issues where strong opinions exist."

Senate President Pro Tempore Jack Critcher, D-Batesville, told Altes he should make a public apology.

"I have talked to him and I believe he is genuinely remorseful and contrite, and that he would give anything to take what he said back - but that's impossible," Critcher said Thursday. "He needs to apologize to everyone. Those who know him will, I believe, forgive him. Everybody else may not, considering what he said."

Critcher said his first reaction to news accounts of the remarks was "shock. However, I called him and he did confirm what was said."

Critcher said Altes told him he had made apologies in person. Critcher said he told Altes private apologies to those directly involve was not enough, that the whole state deserved to hear Altes' apology.

Dennis Milligan, the chairman of the state GOP, also said Altes should apologize for his comments, according to an Associated Press report.

"They are disrespectful and denigrating to the practical concerns of how we truly address illegal immigration," Milligan said in a statement released by the party.

Democratic Party of Arkansas Chairman Bill Gwatney said he was "shocked and appalled" by the remarks made by Altes.

Gwatney welcomed the apology adding, "I hope his future public policy decisions reflect his atonement."

Rita Sklar, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas, said Altes' remarks "make it all too clear that the sentiment that too often colors the immigration debate is not as alleged concern for American workers, or cost to taxpayers, but just your garden-variety racism."

League of United Latin American Citizen President Rosa Rosales issued a statement denouncing the remarks as "hateful" and urging Republican leaders to demand Altes be removed from office immediately.

News of Altes' electronic exchange with Vines was first aired by Northwest Arkansas television station KHBS-KHOG on Wednesday evening. The subject line of the e-mail referred to a Nov. 13 report in the Times Record. Altes later told the Associated Press he was responding to "an inflammatory e-mail." He told the AP, "I was mad and I shouldn't have said anything I said. I shouldn't have made those comparisons."

Altes also recounted efforts by him and former Sen. Jim Holt, R-Springdale, to defeat legislation awarding scholarships to illegal immigrants, action that earned them criticism from former Gov. Mike Huckabee as, Altes wrote, "Unchristian, un-American, unethical, bigot, racist."

He also wrote of his opposition to establishing a Mexican consulate in Arkansas, lobbying he received from the Catholic church and criticism he and Holt received from the League Of United Latin American Citizens.

Altes wrote: "...The Republicans run from this issue and have left me high and dry."

The message also commented on the apparently shrinking support for President Bush by Hispanic voters.

Altes wrote, "All politics are local and I am for sending the illegals back but we know that is impossible. We are where we were with the black folks after the revolutionary war. We can't send them back and the more we piss them off the worse it will be in the future. So what do we do. I say the governor needs to try to enforce the law and sign the letter of understanding with the INS and at least we can send the troublemakers back. Sure we are being overrun but we are being out populated by the blacks also. What is the answer. Only time will tell."

Vines - whose e-mail address contains the letters "CSA" and numerals "1862" - wrote he was certain the "vast majority of citizens with a brain agree with you on this issue." He encouraged Altes in his efforts and added, "You're right...the libs are wrong. It isn't that difficult to understand the meaning of illegal!"

Calls from the Times Record left at Altes' office and on his cell phone voice mail Thursday were not returned. A message left on Vines' cell phone was not returned.

The Morning News' Doug Thompson and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Words Do Hurt

Jackson Free Press
Editorial
By: JFP Staff on Dec 05, 07 | 3:53 pm

“Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can never hurt you.” Any child who’s been the object of hateful, hurtful words knows down deep that it’s a lie. Words can hurt, can damage, can, in fact, leave psychic scars that may never heal.

This year’s hateful lineup of words may be the most damaging since the 1960s. Back then the words were “coon,” “boogie” and “n*gger.” Today, the words are “invaders,” “illegals” and “cockroaches.” Each of the words depersonalizes and dehumanizes “the other”; the words incite fear in the hearts of an insecure population already terrified by unspecific threats from the wars on terrorism and drugs and an economy that never seems to get any better despite every new crop of politicians’ promises.

Out of work? Blame an illegal. Can’t live on what you make? Blame an invader from Mexico. Kids on drugs? Blame a Columbian cockroach.

The inevitable result of this newest round of hate rhetoric is a sharp rise in violence against Latinos—35 percent nationwide and nearly twice the numbers of crimes in places like California, targeting brown-skinned immigrants. Traditionally anti-black organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan—the Mississippi White Knights—have taken up the gauntlet thrown down by irresponsible, power-hungry politicians, and irresponsible, loud-mouthed media hosts. Hate-focused speech and hate-focused violence are hurting innocent people.

Mississippi has a long reputation of targeting groups for violence and retribution. In the ’60s, Hodding Carter wrote about the “uptown Klan,” the white Citizen’s Council based in Jackson, which didn’t espouse violence directly, yet created an atmosphere where anti-black and anti-civil rights violence was rampant. It is no different today; supposedly “God-fearing” people running for office have found “illegals” handy for their fear-based rhetoric.

Mississippians should let their legislators know they recognize such speech as a throwback to the “old” Mississippi—one we would like to see permanently in our past—and that we will not tolerate it. As painful as it was to re-elect old-line incumbents in the last election, voters sent a clear message to the Democrats: “We don’t need you to out-conservative the conservatives.”

Such language demonizes human beings and squelches responsible discussion of issues such as immigration and job creation.

Removing hate-speech and hate-related violence from our lives takes courage—the courage not to give in to the fear it engenders. You’re smarter than that, Mississippi. You’ve seen it all before.

http://www.humaneborders.org/



Humane Borders, motivated by faith, offers humanitarian assistance to those in need through more than 70 emergency water stations on and near the U.S.-Mexican border.

"They will neither hunger nor thirst, nor will the desert heat or the sun beat upon them. He who has compassion on them will guide them and lead them beside springs of water."

-- Isaiah 49:10

Seventh Annual Migrant Memorial And March

March 7, 2001, we placed our first two water stations in Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument. March 27, we completed our application to put water on the Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge. April 18, the application was denied. May 23, the US Border Patrol picked up 14 dead migrants. That startled southern Arizona. Several died that year, but nothing like this year. This year, some 275 bodies of migrants will be recovered from our deserts, and it is unfortunately becoming commonplace and increasingly accepted by the public, by the media, and by officials.

There are many ways our leaders can help change this situation. We'll be reminding you of some of them by and by. The crosses we carry today are very visible reminders. We'll all be more visible this year.



Migrant-Centered Immigration Reform Proposals

Our new plan calls for:

A phased-in legalization period in which undocumented persons achieve legal compliance.
A new visa category that is based on social science analysis of the migration.
A new visa compliance incentive that has an added benefit of providing financial resources to federal law enforcement.
A stake for countries in the western hemisphere in an orderly, legal migration.

Recognizing that the goals of national security, an orderly migration, a secure workforce, human rights, and international cooperation are important and not incompatible.

Institutionalizing a migration that can be controlled as labor conditions certify.
Download the proposal (MS Word format).


Make Us Visible

Make Humane Borders visible by purchasing and using our logo-embalzoned merchandise with this handy order form.

T-shirts
Long-sleeve t-shirts
Ball caps
Wind jackets
Patches
Coffee mugs
Water bottles
Pins

We also sell these documentary DVDs, whose producers generously contribute to Humane Borders:

"The Invisible Mexicans Of Deer Canyon," by John Carlos Frey, looks at what life is like for millions of undocumented immigrants living in the shadows of American society.

"Crossing Arizona," by Joseph Mathew and Dan DeVivo, examines the Arizona-Mexican border crossing crisis through the eyes of those directly affected by it.

"Dying to Live" is a profound look at the human face of the immigrant. It explores who these people are, why they leave their homes and what they face in their journey.

Require English, but don't ban Spanish

Ruben Navarrette Jr.
Originally posted on December 05, 2007

SAN DIEGO — There was one priceless scene in an episode of the PBS television show "American Family" where the patriarch — played by Edward James Olmos — argues that there shouldn't be things like bilingual education and that here in the United States, everyone should speak English. His friend wholeheartedly agrees. What makes the scene funny is the irony: Both men are making their arguments in Spanish (with English subtitles).

The scene is a neat metaphor for the complicated views that many Hispanics have on the subject of language — views that often confuse non-Hispanics and create tension between the groups.

For instance, there are plenty of Hispanics who oppose bilingual education because they think it hurts kids by making it more difficult to learn English. Yet at home, many Hispanics tend to switch effortlessly between Spanish and English and make an effort to ensure that their children maintain their command of Spanish.

Not that they always succeed. The Pew Hispanic Center, a Washington-based research institution, recently reported that while half of the adult children of Hispanic immigrants speak some Spanish at home, the percentage falls to a quarter or less for their children and grandchildren.

And despite the fact that many Hispanics are committed to learning English, many of them also flatly resent English-only laws or workplace rules prohibiting languages other than English.

That makes sense to me. Just because you think people should learn English doesn't necessarily mean that you think a government or private employer should coerce them into doing so through pressure, threats or intimidation. And for what purpose? Just because you think it is in a person's own self-interest to learn English doesn't mean that you need laws and regulations that seem intended to accommodate English speakers by forcing others to conform to the ways of the mainstream.

So don't be surprised if many Hispanics applaud the decision by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to sue The Salvation Army because its thrift store in Framingham, Mass., required employees to speak only English on the job. The requirement was posted and yet at least two Hispanic employees defiantly continued to speak Spanish while at work. The EEOC claimed that their firings violated the law. English-only proponents said that the EEOC's position violated common sense.

The critics are wrong. It's not that a business doesn't have the right to expect its employees to speak English. It does. It just doesn't have the right to prevent workers from speaking languages other than English. That's what this case is about, after all — not a requirement that employees be able to speak English, but a rule that banned the speaking of other languages.

Of course, a business has the right to consider one's ability to speak English as a prerequisite for employment. But — once the person is hired — the employer shouldn't discriminate against some employees just to put other employees at ease.

For one thing, there's the First Amendment. Courts have ruled that people have the right to converse with one another in whatever language they please as long as it doesn't interfere with how they do their job.

Besides, the proponents of English-only laws sometimes claim that allowing employees to communicate in a language that others may not understand fosters division in the workplace. But what is really divisive are rules that pit one group against another and make language the dividing line.

And we don't need any more of that. The immigration debate is already splitting the country. Now language has become a proxy for the foreigners that frighten us.

Library books frighten some folks in Lewisburg, Tenn. — library books in Spanish, to be precise. A while back, at the Marshall County Memorial Library, an employee named Nellie Rivera proposed a bilingual story time where children could have books read to them in Spanish. Some townspeople raised a fuss and demanded that all books in the library — whether bought with public funds or donated by private individuals — be in English.

The silver lining is that there are good folks in Lewisburg, and around the country, who scoff at such cultural censorship. As word of this bilingual backlash got around, outraged patrons began sending checks to the library that were specifically earmarked for buying Spanish-language books. Perhaps to tweak the opposition, some of the donations were in Rivera's name.

That's what I love about story time — in whatever language. There's usually a happy ending.

— Ruben Navarrette Jr. is a columnist and editorial board member of The San Diego Union Tribune. He can be reached at ruben.navarrette@uniontrib.com

I love this interview with Lou Dobbs-Sorry so long.

Fact-Checking Dobbs: CNN Anchor Lou Dobbs Challenged on Immigration Issues
In a wide-ranging interview, CNN anchor Lou Dobbs joins Democracy Now! for the hour to discuss:

His claim that a “third of our prison population” are illegal aliens (according to the Justice Department about 6 percent of the state and federal prison population are non-citizens)
Why white supremacists have appeared on Lou Dobbs Tonight without disclosure over their ties to hate groups
His show’s reporting on leprosy and immigration. A 2005 report on Lou Dobbs Tonight claimed there had been 7,000 new cases of leprosy in the U.S. over the past three years. In fact, there have been 7,000 cases reported over the past 30 years
And more… [includes rush transcript]
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Guest:

Lou Dobbs, anchor and managing editor of CNN’s Lou Dobbs Tonight. His latest book is “Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit.”

Rush Transcript
This transcript is available free of charge. However, donations help us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our TV broadcast. Thank you for your generous contribution.
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JUAN GONZA***: “CNN anchor Lou Dobbs may be the most important person in the 2008 presidential election aside from the candidates themselves.” That’s the opening line of a recent column by Christopher Gacek on the website Politico. Gacek goes on to write, “The bundle of concerns that Dobbs and his audience have about globalization, trade, diminished American sovereignty and immigration will be ignored by politicians at their own peril.”


As anchorman and managing editor of the show Lou Dobbs Tonight, Dobbs has used his nightly program on CNN to help make immigration one of the most discussed issues of the 2008 campaign. Dobbs describes himself as an independent populist. He titled his latest book Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit. His previous book was titled War on the Middle Class: How the Government, Big Business, and Special Interest Groups Are Waging War on the American Dream and How to Fight Back.


AMY GOODMAN: Lou Dobbs also has his detractors, especially when it comes to immigration. He has been called the most influential spokesperson for the anti-immigration movement, and he’s been accused of being a fearmonger who vilifies immigrants and promotes xenophobia.


But Lou Dobbs’s message has struck a chord with many viewers. Lou Dobbs Tonight is the second-most-watched program on CNN, and there’s even talk that Dobbs might make a possible run for the White House. Wall Street Journal columnist John Fund reported last month friends of Dobbs say he’s seriously contemplating running for president as an independent.


Lou Dobbs joins us today in our firehouse studio for the hour. Welcome to Democracy Now!


LOU DOBBS: Great to be with you.


AMY GOODMAN: Are you running?


LOU DOBBS: Absolutely not. It’s the last thing I could imagine. If I were a candidate, I can assure both of you that I would be the candidate of last resort in this country. That’s about 300 million people in line ahead of me.


AMY GOODMAN: Well, you’ve written the book Independents Day. That’s with a “ts” at the end of “Independents.”


LOU DOBBS: Right.


AMY GOODMAN: What is the main thesis of this book?


LOU DOBBS: The main thesis is that both political parties—the Republican Party, Democratic Party—have failed the American people, have, rather than held up our central fundamental national values as the standard to which all of our public policies should repair, has submerged them in trivia, wedge issues, and partisan blather and nonsense that is ultimately destructive to the American dream.


AMY GOODMAN: What do you think are the most important issues today?


LOU DOBBS: The most important issue in this country today is representation of the American people in Washington, D.C., which is being denied right now by corporate America, special interest, group and identity politics that are submerging the will of the majority in this country. The fundamental tenet of any democracy is representation of the will of the majority, and that is being denied through elitists in both business and government and politics. And we have to fundamentally examine where we are and where we want to be going over the course of this next century. And that is not happening, not in the presidential campaigns of both parties. It’s not happening in Washington, D.C., even though we have a government in which the Democratic Party is leading the Congress, and the Republican Party, the White House.


JUAN GONZA***: Now, Lou, you’ve been well known for years now, especially dealing with the issue of American corporations exporting jobs and criticizing that whole process of exporting American jobs overseas.


LOU DOBBS: Sure.


JUAN GONZA***: And your—but also the criticism of it, that as I’ve seen it as, oftentimes does not deal with the impact so much of what this globalization on those countries themselves. In other words, you criticize NAFTA for sending so many jobs overseas, but not with the impact so much that it’s having on Mexico and on these other countries that are the other end of this free trade.


LOU DOBBS: Juan, that may be because I’m a television journalist, limited in my intellect, as well as my time.


JUAN GONZA***: Well, on this show, we don’t have commercials, so we have a lot of time to get into the issues.


LOU DOBBS: The reality is that, of course, NAFTA is, in my judgment, at least deleterious to the interests of the Mexican people and to the state of Mexico. One only has to look at the empty villages in particularly southern Mexico to examine the impact of the agricultural policies within NAFTA. One only has to look at the maquiladoras across northern Mexico to see the impact on a society that is already 50% impoverished, education levels still where they were thirty years ago in Mexico.


But my perspective is an American one. And I won’t presume to speak for Mexico, as Felipe Calderon does presume to speak to the United States for Americans on American policy. The reality is that NAFTA doesn’t work for this country. It doesn’t work for Mexico.


But I am not one of those people—as Amy was talking about, my detractors. The suggestion I’m anti-immigrant, for example, is absurd. I would support an increase in lawful immigration and have said so repeatedly and have no problem whatsoever with current levels of immigration, which, by the way, are the highest levels of immigration in the world—in fact, more than the rest of the world combined. We bring in more than two million people. But the issue is one that the United States does not have a foreign policy toward Mexico. We’re paternalistic and condescending toward Mexico in our dealings with Mexico, both corporately and politically. And it’s time for that to change.


AMY GOODMAN: In the beginning of the broadcast, we played a clip—


LOU DOBBS: Sure.


AMY GOODMAN: —of you talking about various concerns that you have around immigrants.


LOU DOBBS: Sure.


AMY GOODMAN: The last part of that clip—and maybe we can play it again—


LOU DOBBS: Illegal immigrants, if I may, Amy.


AMY GOODMAN: Illegal immigrants.


LOU DOBBS: Only illegal immigrants.


AMY GOODMAN: Maybe we can play a last part of this clip that we played, just to go through it again. We’ll see if our folks have that clip ready. And this is the clip that we played in the billboard. It’s—


LOU DOBBS: Well, I can recall what was said if it’s at all helpful. I said that according to a study—I didn’t use the attribution, but according to a study that Jorge Borjas at Harvard University had completed, that the cost of excess immigration into this country amounts to $200 billion a year in wages, that the cost of incarceration, medical care, social services approximates $50 billion in this country per year. And the reality is that about a third of the crimes that are of those in state prisons—federal prisons, excuse me, federal prisons, are—I’m sorry.


AMY GOODMAN: Are…?


LOU DOBBS: Are those who are in this country illegally.


AMY GOODMAN: Let’s play it.


LOU DOBBS: Sure.


AMY GOODMAN: And then let’s talk about it.


LOU DOBBS: Let’s say the number is eleven million, although some studies put the number as high as twenty million illegal aliens in this country. That not only amounts to a shift of six to ten congressional seats among the states based on the population of illegal immigration. The fact is, those illegal aliens are costing our economy $200 billion in depressed wages for working Americans. It is costing $50 billion a year in social and medical costs. And it’s costing us, no one knows precisely how much, to incarcerate what is about a third of our prison population who are illegal aliens.



AMY GOODMAN: So, Lou, you said a third of the prison population are illegal aliens.


LOU DOBBS: Right.


AMY GOODMAN: The fact is, it’s something like 6% of prisoners in this country are non-citizens, not even illegal, just non-citizens.


LOU DOBBS: Right.


AMY GOODMAN: And then a percentage of that would not be documented.


LOU DOBBS: Well, it’s actually—I think it’s 26% in federal prison.


AMY GOODMAN: But you said of all prisoners.


LOU DOBBS: I said about—yes, but I—and I misspoke, without question. I was referring to federal prisoners.


AMY GOODMAN: But you didn’t say that, and so it leaves people with the impression—


LOU DOBBS: Well, I didn’t, but then I just explained it to you.


AMY GOODMAN: But you have a very large audience on CNN.


LOU DOBBS: I have a very large audience and a very bright audience.


AMY GOODMAN: And you told them that a third of the population of this country are illegal immigrants. 6% , which is under the population of immigrants—


LOU DOBBS: 6% , right.


AMY GOODMAN: —in this country, of prisoners—


LOU DOBBS: In state prisons.


AMY GOODMAN: —are immigrants.


LOU DOBBS: In state prisons. In state prisons.


AMY GOODMAN: No, 6% overall are immigrants. You said 30% are illegal.


LOU DOBBS: Well, I think we’ve established—we could sit here and say this all day, Amy. The fact is, the number is 26% in federal prisons. That’s what I was referring to. I did not—I misspoke when I said “prisons.” I was referring to the federal prisons, because that’s the federal crime: immigration. And that—


AMY GOODMAN: Have you made a correction on your show to say that 30% of—?


LOU DOBBS: I’m sure we have. We’ve reported—absolutely.


AMY GOODMAN: We didn’t see it.


LOU DOBBS: Do you know how many reports we’ve done on illegal immigration in this country?


AMY GOODMAN: Yes, many.


LOU DOBBS: I mean, my god.


JUAN GONZA***: Yeah, but I’d like to get into this issue—I mean, aside from the fact that the GAO report—


LOU DOBBS: Excuse me, just one second.


JUAN GONZA***: Sure.


LOU DOBBS: I mean, what if I were to sit here and just hound you because you said I was anti-immigrant, when I am, point of fact, I’m anti-illegal immigrant, and it’s absolutely a matter of fact. We could quarrel over the terminology, if you want. But why should people of good faith and intelligence sit there and be so absurd about it?


JUAN GONZA***: No, we agree on that. But this is precisely the lumping of illegal or undocumented immigrants and legal immigrants in one category that’s a problem—


LOU DOBBS: Right.


JUAN GONZA***: —because, for instance—


LOU DOBBS: Right, I agree with you.


JUAN GONZA***: —the total percentage of the non-citizen population of the United States right now is about thirty-five million, 12% of the population.


LOU DOBBS: Do you know this?


JUAN GONZA***: Well, this is Census Bureau—


LOU DOBBS: I was just—I was just—


JUAN GONZA***: Wait, wait, Lou. Let me finish. Let me finish, Lou.


LOU DOBBS: I have to say, I was laughing about the NIE, because, as you heard Steve Hadley talk about—


JUAN GONZA***: Lou, let me finish.


LOU DOBBS: —high confidence levels in those estimates,—


JUAN GONZA***: Right, but let me—


LOU DOBBS: What do you suppose the confidence level is of the United States government in the number of people in this country illegally, the number of people—


JUAN GONZA***: We’re assuming now—the legal population is pretty well documented, right? But the—


LOU DOBBS: Documented, undocumented.


JUAN GONZA***: The legal immigrant population is pretty well documented. It’s about twenty-three million. And then you add maybe another eleven to twelve million of the undocumented population, and you get thirty-five million. The point is—my point is this: if 12% of the non-citizen population of the United States—non-citizens comprise 12% of the population. They comprise 6% of the prison population. That suggests to me that crime rates are far lower among non-citizen immigrants—legal and illegal—than they are among the general population of the United States.


LOU DOBBS: Can I ask you a question?


JUAN GONZA***: You have raised the issue of crime—you’ve raised the issue of crime in relationship to immigrants.


LOU DOBBS: Well, silly me, silly me. MS-13, all sorts of gangs. You know, the fact that Mexico is the largest source of methamphetamines, heroin, cocaine, marijuana entering the United States. Silly me for bringing up crack.


AMY GOODMAN: But, Lou—


LOU DOBBS: But may I ask you a question?


AMY GOODMAN: I think you agree—


LOU DOBBS: May I ask this question—


AMY GOODMAN: I think you would agree—


LOU DOBBS: May I ask this question—


AMY GOODMAN: —that facts matter.


LOU DOBBS: Of course, they do. Absolutely.


AMY GOODMAN: And so—


LOU DOBBS: I am an empiricist to the bone.


AMY GOODMAN: And so, if 6% of prisoners are immigrants—documented and undocumented—and you said 30% of prisoners, a third of the population of prisons in this country, are prisoners, it conveys a very different sense.


LOU DOBBS: Different meaning.


AMY GOODMAN: And as you’ve pointed out—


LOU DOBBS: I agree.


AMY GOODMAN: —you’ve done hundreds of shows on these issues.


LOU DOBBS: More than that. More like thousands.


AMY GOODMAN: And that reinforces the feeling that people have, who watch the show—


LOU DOBBS: So, your point is?


AMY GOODMAN: —either they believe you or—either they don’t believe you, or they believe you and are being fed wrong information.


LOU DOBBS: Well, I don’t—you know, I think it’s important for all of us, because, as you say, I’m—we’re all interested in the facts. So let me ask both of you, please, a question that seeks a fact: Does the United States government and do state governments inquire of their prisoners as to whether they are legal or illegal, and can they under the law? Or are these estimates that we’re talking about?


AMY GOODMAN: Well, if the government doesn’t know, how do you know?


LOU DOBBS: No, that’s as straightforward question.


AMY GOODMAN: How do you know?


LOU DOBBS: Well, because in the federal prisons, they are permitted to make a decision as to whether or not they can ask if they’re citizens or non-citizens, but cannot ask if they’re legal or illegal. So it is, at best, a projection. When Juan says eleven million to twelve million illegal aliens, you and I both know that the Bear Stearns study suggests twenty million people. There is no one in this country today—that’s why I referred to the National Intelligence—


AMY GOODMAN: And the Bear Stearns study has been critiqued over and over again—


LOU DOBBS: By whom?


AMY GOODMAN: —by the top economists.


LOU DOBBS: Oh, come on!


AMY GOODMAN: Bear Stearns study, saying it is wildly exaggerated, that their—


LOU DOBBS: The National Intelligence Estimate is closer probably on Iran today than it is on the makeup of the US population today. I mean, if you want to talk about this nonsense, I mean, that’s what it is.


AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to break, and we’ll come back.


LOU DOBBS: Sure.


AMY GOODMAN: Our guest is Lou Dobbs. He is the well-known anchor of CNN Lou Dobbs Tonight and has written a new book called Independents Day. We’ll be back with him in a minute.


[break]


AMY GOODMAN: Our guest for the hour is Lou Dobbs, well known as the CNN anchor of Lou Dobbs Tonight. In May, the New York Times published a critical article about you, Lou.


LOU DOBBS: [inaudible]


AMY GOODMAN: It was called “Truth, Fiction and Lou Dobbs.” Columnist David Leonhardt wrote, “Mr. Dobbs has a somewhat flexible relationship with reality.” Leonhardt highlighted this profile about you that aired on CBS’s 60 Minutes.


LESLEY STAHL: One of the issues he tackles relentlessly is illegal immigration. And on that, his critics say his advocacy can get in the way of the facts.


LOU DOBBS: Tuberculosis, leprosy, malaria?


LESLEY STAHL: Following a report on illegals carrying diseases into the US, one of the correspondents on his show, Christine Romans, told Dobbs that there had been 7,000 cases of leprosy in the US in the past three years.


CHRISTINE ROMANS: Leprosy, in this country


LOU DOBBS: Incredible.


LESLEY STAHL: We checked that and found a report issued by the US Department of Health and Human Services saying 7,000 is the number of leprosy cases over the last thirty years, not the past three, and nobody knows how many of those cases involve illegal immigrants.


[interviewing Dobbs] Now, went to try and check that number, 7,000—we can’t. Just so you know—


LOU DOBBS: I can tell you this: if we reported it, it’s a fact.


LESLEY STAHL: You can’t tell me that. You did report it—


LOU DOBBS: No, I just did.


LESLEY STAHL: How can you guarantee that to me?


LOU DOBBS: Because I’m the managing editor, and that’s the way we do business. We don’t make up numbers, Lesley, do we?



AMY GOODMAN: A day after the 60 Minutes report aired, Lou Dobbs discussed the issue on his program with his reporter, the CNN reporter Christine Romans.


LOU DOBBS: Then there was a question about some of your comments, Christine, following one of your reports. I told Lesley Stahl we don’t make up numbers, and I will tell everybody here again tonight, I stand 100% behind what you said.


CHRISTINE ROMANS: That’s right, Lou. We don’t make up numbers here. This is what we reported. We reported: “It’s interesting, because the woman in our piece told us that there were about 900 cases of leprosy for forty years. There have been 7,000 in the past three years. Leprosy, in this country.” I was quoting Dr. Madeleine Cosman, a respected medical lawyer and medical historian. Writing in The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, she said: “Hansen’s disease”—that’s the other modern name, I guess, for leprosy—“Hansen’s disease was so rare in America that in forty years only 900 people were afflicted. Suddenly, in the past three years America has more than 7,000 cases of leprosy,” Lou.


LOU DOBBS: It’s remarkable that this—whatever, confusion or confoundment over 7,000 cases. They actually keep a registry of cases of leprosy. And the fact that it rose was because of—one assumes, because we don’t know for sure—but two basic influences: unscreened illegal immigrants coming into this country, primarily from South Asia, and the—secondly, far better reporting.


CHRISTINE ROMANS: That’s what Dr. Cosman told us, Lou.


LOU DOBBS: And, you know, in talking with a number of people, it’s also very clear no one knows, but nearly everyone suspects, there are far more cases of that. It is also, I think, interesting, and I think important to say, one of the reasons we screen people coming into this country is to deal with communicable diseases like leprosy, tuberculosis. The fact is, if we would just screen successfully, all of those diseases can be treated effectively, efficiently and relatively quickly.



AMY GOODMAN: That’s Lou Dobbs on the show. The source behind the claim that there was a spike of 7,000 new cases of leprosy was a controversial medical attorney named Madeleine Cosman. In 2005, she described undocumented immigrants as “deadly time bombs, because of the diseases they bring into the country.” Cosman, who died last year, has also been criticized for these comments she made about Mexican men.


MADELEINE COSMAN: Recognize that most of these *******s molest girls under age twelve, some as young as age five, others age three. Although, of course, some specialize in boys, some specialize in nuns, some are exceedingly versatile and rape little girls age eleven and women up to age seventy-nine.


What is important here is the psychiatric defenses: Why do they do what they do? They do not need a jail; they need a hospital. They are depraved because they were deprived in their home country. But more important is the cultural defense: they suffer from psychiatric cognitive disjuncture, for what does a poor man do if in his home country of Mexico in his jurisdiction if rape is ranked lower than cow stealing? Of course, he will not know how to behave here in strange America. This is thoroughly reprehensible.



AMY GOODMAN: Madeleine Cosman, that’s her quote. She actually is not a medical doctor. She’s a Renaissance author and scholar of sorts. Lou Dobbs?


LOU DOBBS: What would you have me say, Amy? Because what—the reality is what you don’t say, is that Leonhardt’s piece was filled with errors. Secondly, Madeleine Cosman, as we learned following that report in Physicians and Surgeons, the publication, is precisely what you styled her: she is a wack—or was a wackjob. But the New York Times didn’t know that, either. If you would read the obituary for Madeleine Cosman in the New York Times—have you done that, by the way? She died a year ago, which was, by the way, a year after we had used her as a source in a report, along with other people. Did you read that obituary? Did you find that the New York Times had come to basically the same conclusion we had, that she was a credible source? Because if you read that obituary, it is glowing and filled with plaudits for Madeleine Cosman. And so—


JUAN GONZA***: Well, but, Lou, I think the issue—


LOU DOBBS: But I must—no, no. I am going to say this—


JUAN GONZA***: The issue is that we, as journalists—


LOU DOBBS: To go through a body of


JUAN GONZA***: —all have our own responsibility to—


LOU DOBBS: No, listen to me, Juan—


JUAN GONZA***: No, no, no, no, no, Listen—


LOU DOBBS: —because at least we can have some civility—


JUAN GONZA***: Lou—


LOU DOBBS: —to go through this and try to convey that this is a body of work. I spoke for eight seconds after that report on tuberculosis and the screening of illegal immigrants into this country. For eight seconds. And you’re trying to project this as if it is reflective of a body of work. And that, I think, is—I think—


JUAN GONZA***: No, but, Lou, the issue—


LOU DOBBS: I would hope that you would be embarrassed by that.


JUAN GONZA***: No, Lou, the issue is—


AMY GOODMAN: You’re the managing director of your show—


LOU DOBBS: I am the managing director.


AMY GOODMAN: —and editor of your show.


LOU DOBBS: And let me ask you a question: how many—how many people are on the registry for Hansen’s disease in this country?


JUAN GONZA***: 7,000, total.


LOU DOBBS: It’s over 7,000, correct.


AMY GOODMAN: For thirty years.


JUAN GONZA***: For thirty years.


LOU DOBBS: Absolutely.


AMY GOODMAN: You said over the last three years because of illegal immigration.


LOU DOBBS: And what did we say? Did I say because of illegal immigration?


AMY GOODMAN: Yes.


LOU DOBBS: I said no one knows, but one assumes primarily, because they’re not being screened. That’s what the doctors at the Hansen centers were telling us. Secondly, the issue of—if you want to, I mean, explode eight seconds into a whole body of discussion, fine. The reality is, I think you would agree, that if we were screening illegal immigrants, as well as legal immigrants, we would probably have a **** of a lot less in the way of tuberculosis in this country, and Hansen’s disease.


JUAN GONZA***: OK, Lou, I’d like to get into—take this in a much deeper perspective than just the particular fact—


LOU DOBBS: I hope so.


JUAN GONZA***: —because I’ve been very concerned about the lack of historical understanding of the immigration battles in our country, going back to the Irish in the 1840s. Father Joseph Fitzpatrick, who was a wonderful sociologist of Fordham University, once did a study of the criminal populations in New York City in 1859, concluded that 83% of all the criminal convictions in 1859 in New York City were Irish—were Irish, not Canadian, Scotch, English or Germans or the other bulk of the population in New York at the time, but were Irish, right? Henry McLaughlin, the—


LOU DOBBS: What in the world is your point?


JUAN GONZA***: Well, I’m getting to my point, but give me the time to do it. We have time on this show, unlike—we don’t do soundbites here, alright?


LOU DOBBS: No, and you certainly don’t do representative journalism, either.


JUAN GONZA***: Henry McLaughlin, Lou, was the guy who was the main consultant to the US Congress in developing the immigration restriction laws of the 1920s, a eugenicist who, interestingly enough, examined the facts—high crime rates among the immigrant population in the 1920s. Tuberculosis, disease, drunkenness—and these were the reasons—his studies of the population of the immigrant population were the basis upon which Congress decided on its restrictive laws to limit the number of southern Europeans, of Jews and of other nationalities that were coming into the country at the time. My point is that the issue of crime and the issue of disease has always been attempted by those who want to restrict immigration, right? But identifying—


LOU DOBBS: Juan, you’re smarter than this. I mean—


JUAN GONZA***: —with the immigrant population coming into the country.


LOU DOBBS: You’re smarter than this. You’re better than this.


JUAN GONZA***: You know, you’re doing the same thing that Henry—


LOU DOBBS: No, I’m—


JUAN GONZA***: —McLaughlin did in the 1920s—


LOU DOBBS: Oh, you’re—


JUAN GONZA***: —and the same thing that was done against the Irish—


LOU DOBBS: Juan, if you believe that—


JUAN GONZA***: —in the 1850s.


LOU DOBBS: If you believe that, you should look into that camera and say you apologize for trying to mislead people purposefully. The reality is this. Have you ever once heard me say anything other than I have the greatest respect for illegal immigrants in this country? Illegal immigrants. Forget immigrants, illegal immigrants. Have you ever heard me say anything other than that? Have you ever heard me say anything other than, I believe that the illegal alien in this entire mess is the only rational actor? Have you ever heard me say that? Have you ever read the transcripts of my broadcasts? Do you have any—


JUAN GONZA***: Yes, I’ve read quite a few of your transcripts. Not all of them, I have to confess. I work with—


LOU DOBBS: Would you like to tell me? Have you ever heard me say anything other than that? Have you ever heard me say that I want to have immigration restricted? I mean, my god, man, do you have any—any—sense of fidelity to the reality?


JUAN GONZA***: Yes, I do. And the reality is—


LOU DOBBS: How in the world can you use my name and “anti-immigrant” in the same breath?


AMY GOODMAN: When we hear comments like—


LOU DOBBS: You hear—


AMY GOODMAN: —a third of the—from you—we’ve played them, so we can’t refute the videotape, Lou.


LOU DOBBS: Have you looked, Amy—


AMY GOODMAN: We can’t refute—a third of prisoners are—


LOU DOBBS: Yes. And we discussed that?


AMY GOODMAN: —are illegal immigrants—


LOU DOBBS: Have we discussed it?


AMY GOODMAN: No, a third of prisoners are illegal immigrants, not true. 7,000 leprosy cases in the last three years because of illegal immigrants—


LOU DOBBS: Christine Romans misspoke—


AMY GOODMAN: —not true.


LOU DOBBS: —we said that. And that’s as straightforward as we can put it.


AMY GOODMAN: And you made an announcement on your show—


LOU DOBBS: Absolutely.


AMY GOODMAN: —and you will say it here—


LOU DOBBS: Absolutely.


AMY GOODMAN: —that it is not true. Illegal immigrants are not responsible for 7,000 cases of leprosy over last three years.


LOU DOBBS: Not over the last three years. But the likelihood is that illegal immigrants are responsible, because they are the ones who brought Hansen’s disease—


AMY GOODMAN: ”The likelihood”—based on what, Lou?


LOU DOBBS: Based on doctors at the Hansen Center,—


AMY GOODMAN: No.


LOU DOBBS: —who said that—listen to me. Hansen’s—I mean, if you guys—you guys are just ridiculous in your loss of proportion here. You’re talking about one report. But if you want to talk about it, tuberculosis and Hansen’s disease are both screened, and they are so similar in the symptoms and their presentation that doctors look for that in the screening. Without question.


AMY GOODMAN: But as you agree now, you’re formally apologizing for having a presentation on your show—


LOU DOBBS: I already have.


AMY GOODMAN: —and then backing it up.


LOU DOBBS: Wait, wait, wait.


AMY GOODMAN: Again, this is not just one show.


LOU DOBBS: Referring to three years, OK?


AMY GOODMAN: So you’re saying that illegal immigrants have caused 7,000 cases of leprosy—


LOU DOBBS: No.


AMY GOODMAN: —over thirty years?


LOU DOBBS: I’m saying the likelihood is that those cases of Hansen’s disease are, according to the doctors at the Hansen Center, most likely as a result of illegal immigration, because they’re not being screened.


AMY GOODMAN: You know the fear—


LOU DOBBS: But why contain this?


AMY GOODMAN: Well, the reason—


LOU DOBBS: How