Originally posted by Houston: I would suggest you get a copy of the SJC markup, there's no per-se "amnesty", no immediate LPR status, no direct path to citizenship.
You are confusing the process with the reality:
There is a direct path to Citizenship, you said so yourself:
Probationary period (which there is currently for spousal applicants - 2 year CPR) then Permanent Residency then Citizenship
I do not think most are that worried about exactly how this all works, just that they can stay/work/whatever in the US legally.
And of course those that do not qualify or fail the process are unlikely to be leaving anyway, well not voluntarily.
And unlike those already in line, they are here, not waiting elsewhere - F4 Philippines for example.
I'm not confusing the process, I call amnesty what I understand amnesty to be, and nothing else.
The conditions imposed by the markup must be met, and during the duration of probation the alien cannot adjust status. Only after all conditions are met and certified, the alien is allowed to file an application for AOS, and only then the alien becomes an LPR. After the alien is granted LPR status, the alien has a clear path to citizenship. The process could take anything from 6 years to up to 10 years, depending on backlogs and other technical aspects, and that's only to get LPR status.
To say that just because somebody is in legal status that person has a path to citizenship is simply preposterous. Under that definition, granting a non-immigrant visa would be seen as granting "a path to citizenship".... Nonsense.
The bill presents one huge flaw, the employment requirement as currently defined. The legal framework is complex, the implications are enormous. Even when the bill affords protection under the "Act" for employers, I can think of a trillion reasons as to why employers will try to prevent disclosure at all costs, and believe it or not, granting legal status to their alien employees will be the last of their priorities. It would be quite a different story if the bill provided protections under federal law (not just the Act) for BOTH employers and aliens, but it does not do that.
If the requirements are not modified, the bill will only result in mass firings, fraudulent re-hirings, bogus terminations and many other schemes to defraud.
Reality is, again, the key to good legislation. In the grand scheme of things, helping an alien adjust status is not something that will keep employers awake at night, protecting their own interests will take priority. If complete disclosure is expected, then protections should be afforded to those who offer truthful testimony. It's like asking a witness to testify and bringing his testimony before a grand jury for indictment.
Originally posted by SICKOFILLEGALS: And why is it that foreigners who have not worked a single day collect SSI and Social Security checks? because nobody has bothered to change the laws. As long as your are 65 years old you are "entitled" to receive social security benefits, medicare, or medicaid, food stamps, medical attention, etc. The Cubans get $5,000 on the spot as soon as they set foot in Florida. Write a thesis about this!
SICKOFILLEGALS, Last evening I discussed the $5,000 with a Cuban friend and he said it isn't true at all about the $5,000. Under the Wet Foot - Dry Foot Policy they immediately go to Krome Detention Center on Krome Avenue in Homestead FL (South Miami agricultural area). They are detained there (women and children housed in other facilities) while processing paperwork, awaiting family/relatives if any, if no family then Catholic Church assists them with housing and searching for jobs but only on a basic financial level. There is no $5,000 given to them. Also, my other Cuban friend never mentioned to me about receiving anything of the sort when he got off the boat about eight months ago. I'm also going to contact him soon about this. Advise about Krome Avenue if you venture there: 1) Watch out - they drive crazy. 2) Two bars that grill fantastic food outside. 3) Don't get drunk at night and drive. You'll get lost in the streets surrounding the orchards. All the intersections look the same.
I've never heard anything about Cuban citizens receiving money from the Government as a "gift" of some sort. However, I strongly disagree with these provisions intended to benefit Cuban cicizens over any other alien.
The talk now is about security. There's no official mission to Cuba, there's no way to obtain a "valid" background check from the Cuban government and Castro himself has stated that he's clearing out the jails and making these prisoners "a U.S. problem".
If the law was fair and these practices acceptable then all mexican EWI's should be adjusted first because, at least, you can obtain a background check from mexican officials to verify their identity.
Since I don't believe in discrimination, I don't believe in excluding aliens as a matter of law, but Cuban citizens shouldn't benefit from special measures while the immediate relatives of U.S. citizens are subject to background checks, fingerprinting, intrusive interviewing and degrading investigations. I've heard it said that the law treats "Cubans as prima-facie honest, while Citizens are always suspected of lying and fraud". What is all this about? Nonsense!
The interests of a U.S. Citizen have to be, and must be, given priority over the interests of Cuban citizens and politicians who want to just make a point against Castro's brutal regime.
Live for today and forget about tomorrow, life of a rodeo man...
Originally posted by Houston: I'm not confusing the process, I call amnesty what I understand amnesty to be, and nothing else.
The conditions imposed by the markup must be met, and during the duration of probation the alien cannot adjust status. Only after all conditions are met and certified, the alien is allowed to file an application for AOS, and only then the alien becomes an LPR. After the alien is granted LPR status, the alien has a clear path to citizenship. The process could take anything from 6 years to up to 10 years, depending on backlogs and other technical aspects, and that's only to get LPR status.
To say that just because somebody is in legal status that person has a path to citizenship is simply preposterous. Under that definition, granting a non-immigrant visa would be seen as granting "a path to citizenship".... Nonsense.
The bill presents one huge flaw, the employment requirement as currently defined. The legal framework is complex, the implications are enormous. Even when the bill affords protection under the "Act" for employers, I can think of a trillion reasons as to why employers will try to prevent disclosure at all costs, and believe it or not, granting legal status to their alien employees will be the last of their priorities. It would be quite a different story if the bill provided protections under federal law (not just the Act) for BOTH employers and aliens, but it does not do that.
If the requirements are not modified, the bill will only result in mass firings, fraudulent re-hirings, bogus terminations and many other schemes to defraud.
Reality is, again, the key to good legislation. In the grand scheme of things, helping an alien adjust status is not something that will keep employers awake at night, protecting their own interests will take priority. If complete disclosure is expected, then protections should be afforded to those who offer truthful testimony. It's like asking a witness to testify and bringing his testimony before a grand jury for indictment.
Something else has to intervene to allow a Visitor to become an Immigrant, usually marriage to a USC.
If you look at the marriage route, K Visa:
You have to adjust status You have conditional status You have to remove conditions You have to apply for Citizenship
At all points it is not a given, checks required, evidence, affidavits etc.
So not a lot of difference. And just how many checks will they do? The numbers will overwhelm the system.
I am sure those on E2 Visa's would like the same opportunity as illegals.
I can see many people here legally wondering how they could amend their status to illegal so they could benefit from this scheme, crazy.
I believe most people would want to see the Employers taken to task, perhaps one way would be to require those seeking benefit to be required to testify against their employers. The fines levied could help defray the costs and also make them think about future hires.
But when it comes down to it, with a $2 Billion deficit a day, the US needs a large supply of low cost labor to keep inflationary pressures down. And will do for the foreseeable future.
I did hear that the Social Security system is banking on 5m new immigrants a year, which compares badly with the 1m legal entrants currently.
The legalization requirements under the Senate bill include illegal status combined with employment, not one or the other mind you, but both. Although the bill does provide protection for liability relating "directly" to the employment of the aliens "applying for adjustment under such section" the bill is not clear enough.
Under these circumstances, consider the typical scenario present when an illegal alien is employed. Obviously, the employer wouldn't be subject to criminal charges of "employing unauthorized aliens" but the conduct extends more than to just the act of hiring somebody for "wages or remuneration". The employer could be liable for a conspiracy charge related to false statements to government officials. There could also be fraud charges brought up by SSA and IRS. Employers will think twice before sponsoring an alien for legalization, and most likely will prevent that from happening to defend their own interests.
Some insist that the employers wouldn't face any consequences for employing the aliens, so let's assume that that is true. But wait, there's more, there's actually much more....
My favorite, the consequences to the alien.... The bill provides that certain 212 grounds do not apply, including 212(a)(6)... Nice. But the bill doesn't afford any shield against criminal charges resulting from the unlawful employment requirement itself. So, if the alien filed an I-9, and most have, the alien would be removable. All that a smart prosecutor has to do is to file a simple charge under 1001, false statements, or even easier, a conspiracy charge. The prosecutor don't have to seek imprisonment, just a conviction with maybe a small fine attached and just like that the alien is inadmissible on CIMT grounds.
Ah, but the statutes of limitation will prevent prosecution rendering the aliens safe... YEAH RIGHT! If the alien confesses that he or she filed ANY KIND of false document or made ANY KIND of false statements to get the job, the alien would be admitting to one form or another of CIMT, and guess what? Again inadmissible on CIMT grounds, no formal charges need to be filed, no trial, no conviction... In fact, when you file for adjustment under the bill you're making an affirmation, under oath, that you comply with the requirements (unlawful employment while out of status), and you're submitting, under oath, evidence of unlawful activities that render you inadmissible by your own "admission".
Remember, there's no protection against criminal charges that could result, in one way or another, from the activities that are presented as "requirements" under the bill...
The very requirement imposed by the bill, unlawful status and employment, creates a firewall that will prevent adjustment as a practical matter. Now, do you understand why most say the bill will not granted "amnesty"....? The bill won't grant ANYTHING to ANYBODY...
Live for today and forget about tomorrow, life of a rodeo man...
Let's assume it is configured that way intentionally.
It makes the whole process effectively discretionary, and of course holds anybody seeking to benefit from it effectively indentured, removable at any time.
Presumably any subsequent PR process is also doubtful as it would be based on a fraudulent premise.
And then Citizenship requires full disclosure of all previous crimes, whether prosecuted or not. So either a book would need to be written for every application or another case of fraud.
Slavery in another guise, just what the US has been seeking for many a long year.
I don't really believe that Congress is trying to promote slavery or any other kind of exploitation. This is a good nation, with good and well intentioned people and slavery is seen nowadays as a shameful mistake and a crime against humanity. Congress has been clear and firm when passing statutes that prevent any form of slavery or intentional and inhumane treatment of individuals.
It's quite possible that the bill was constructed like that unintentionally, and because of the lack of serious and consistent analysis of all possible implications. After all, current sec. 212 presents contradictions so profound the they had to be resolved by BIA...
But again, there's a possibility that the bill was purposely constructed to facilitate removal of all undocumented individuals. One of the main reasons given by authorities when confronted with the illegal immigration crisis is that it's simply impossible to locate all aliens illegally present, and that reason is legit, so, what could be better than to have the aliens volunteering information about their location, past activity and employment?
You mention the relief would be discretionary but keep in mind that there's no exercise of discretion when an alien formally and under oath admits to the essential elements of a CIMT punishable by more than one year of imprisonment... Ah, BTW, the applications are submitted by the alien under penalty of perjury.. convenient? Indeed... A confession in writing for all that matters.
There's many in Congress that actually want to fix the problem, and credit should be given where credit is due, but there's others who only want to see mass removals without any interest in reform or real solutions.
Congress as a whole is not to blame, the President is not to blame. The Secretary is not to blame. Responsibility rests with a very reduced number of people, not necessarily in holding any position of power but with the ability to influence, who cannot see beyond their personal interests and couldn't care less about finding a solution that's compatible with American values and history.
I guess the problem will get worse before a real solution is presented. I believe in the good character of the nation and hope that one day reason will prevail over passions and a reasonable, humane and fair approach will be enacted.
Live for today and forget about tomorrow, life of a rodeo man...
A Guest Worker program strikes me as being exploitation.
It would not be the first time the law of unintended consequences applied, I am sure this will occur no matter what the final form of a bill.
I do not think it is that hard to find those here illegally, I remember the first time I came to the US being accosted by a Political canvasser, he was glad that I at least spoke English, even if I could not vote. The first person he had come across that day in that part of town.
There is no win win scenario, there will be losers as there are now, those USC's at the bottom principally, the ones that used to do the jobs Americans will not do, well not for that salary.
I also know a few people in the IT industry and they always complain that H visa's are used to keep their wages down, and I know some people on H's who feel that they are underpaid but have no way forward as they need their employer to sponsor them.
One thing that most seem to forget is that the law needs reform, and reform is the only way to solve the illegal immigration crisis.
Recently, the Secretary specifically asked Congress to produce a legislation that's simple enough to enforce and follow. His argument is well intended, many people find themselves out of status or in some sort of grey area with no clear way out. The law is extremely complex and must be simplified.
The interests U.S. Citizens should be considered with special care. Removing an immediate relative of a U.S. Citizen doesn't only carry consequences on the alien, but on the citizen as well. I can't stress this enough, the interests of U.S. citizens should be well considered and taken care of in any final form of legislation. If protecting the jobs of American citizens is a priority, and it's been the cry of many who oppose reform, it cannot be argued that protecting their families is any less important. Family has to take priority over any economic interest that's to be protected.
A guest worker program is required and long overdue. However, without substantial reform, a guest worker program is not going to work.
The Secretary also called for reconsideration of the judicial review provisions however, simplifying the law will result in an immediate reduction of the grounds for appeal; a win win situation without the need for additional measures. Current law contains provisions that are complex and subject to extended interpretations; moral turpitude, offenses "related to" other offenses, sentencing provisions, conflicts with federal and state law, equal protection and many other topics are only a few of the most common grounds for appeal requiring long response times and tedious analysis.
Another petition was to re-structure the aggravated felony provisions to allow the removal of "murderers, rapists and those convicted of manslaughter"... Hold on a second, I thought those were already aggravated felonies and 212(h) is not available to ANY ALIEN convicted of these particular crimes... So, one would wonder, why such a petition? The term "aggravated felony" should be reserved only for truly serious offenses with a notorious element of criminal intent or use of violence, and should never be used to cover all possible felonies.
I don't think the current efforts are significant enough to trigger meaningful reform, but I may be wrong here, we'll have to wait and see. One thing to remember, immigration law shouldn't be about denying entry to, or removing from the country, the highest number of aliens humanly possible. Immigration law is about allowing deserving individuals to come and contribute to the progress of society, it's about preserving the family unity, it's about cultural and economic growth, it's about making the nation stronger.
Originally posted by Houston: Immigration law is about allowing deserving individuals to come and contribute to the progress of society, it's about preserving the family unity, it's about cultural and economic growth, it's about making the nation stronger.
You probably can quote the law better, but I always understood that the basis of US law was to keep people out unless they were the exception that allowed them in.
And the use of deserving will always be contentious, to start with deserving to the US or deserving to the individual. I doubt if there is a single person who does not consider their situation to be deserving.
I will await with baited breath for Congress to simplify the situation, after all is it not them who got us here?
Just can not think of a comparable situation where this has ever been the outcome.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Houston: The talk now is about security. There's no official mission to Cuba, there's no way to obtain a "valid" background check from the Cuban government and Castro himself has stated that he's clearing out the jails and making these prisoners "a U.S. problem". [QUOTE] If Castro died, and there is another boatlift of people to the U.S., the Miami coast guard has simulated a "practice run" (for lack of better words) to deal with the arrival. It's been stated there is doubt this will occur.
Has Castro recently declared that he's cleaning out the jails? I hadn't heard that or maybe that's the population the U.S. expected to arrive. I recall the Cuban uprising when I was working in Ft. Smith AR back around 1979 or 1980ish. They housed them at Ft. Chaffee AR outside Barling AR. Castro sent the worst of the worst, criminals and mentally handicapped people. I was asked by a church if I'd sponsor a Raphael. Upon considering it for two days I responded with a profound NO. Is this what he's doing now, letting a bunch out again?
Hi Explora - I can't find any articles about this - will keep looking, but I haven't heard any new news of Cuba releasing prisoners. I'll copy and paste if I find something.
Originally posted by ProudUSC: Hi Explora - I can't find any articles about this - will keep looking, but I haven't heard any new news of Cuba releasing prisoners. I'll copy and paste if I find something.
ProudUSC, he is "planning" to do so is what I understood from Hudson's post. What I'd read in the papers I took it to be the general population leaving if he died. Paper didn't state general or selected population. I wouldn't doubt the 'ol devil doing that again. Yeah, please keep me posted. That will be a mess if we have another boatload.
Does it really matter? I mean, does it really? Here you have a person offering no background information and you're admitting that person as a matter of law. The fact that Castro has, in the past, released prisoners to be sent to the U.S. only serves to tell you that, if the concern really is national security, this practice has to be brought to an end. It happened in the past, it could be happening now but how would you really know? You may be admitting a good person, a victim of the atrocities of the Cuban system, or a convicted rapist for all you know. Sure, you may question the alien, but you're going to validate his or her answers against what?
It's absolutely propostruous to the extreme to make relatives of citizens, even minor children, comply with a sometimes arbitrary and degrading series of interviews and other requirements while you're admitting, without difficulty, a person with a dubious background without the possibility of conducting the proper checks. There's no real way to even know the the alien is who he or she claims to be. The system extends courtesy to these aliens while treating citizens and their families as liars and criminals with little respect for their privacy and sometimes their very own dignity. Citizens and their interests should come first, and currently the do not.
So, where's the logic in that? One thing is consideraton for others, but consideration should first be extended to U.S. citizens and their families, not to some "has been" dictator.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Houston,
Originally posted by Houston: Does it really matter? I mean, does it really? Here you have a person offering no background information and you're admitting that person as a matter of law. The fact that Castro has, in the past, released prisoners to be sent to the U.S. only serves to tell you that, if the concern really is national security, this practice has to be brought to an end. It happened in the past, it could be happening now but how would you really know? You may be admitting a good person, a victim of the atrocities of the Cuban system, or a convicted rapist for all you know. Sure, you may question the alien, but you're going to validate his or her answers against what?
It's absolutely propostruous to the extreme to make relatives of citizens, even minor children, comply with a sometimes arbitrary and degrading series of interviews and other requirements while you're admitting, without difficulty, a person with a dubious background without the possibility of conducting a background check. The system extends courtesy to these aliens while treating citizens and their families as liars and criminals with little respect for their privacy and sometimes their very own dignity. Citizens and their interests should come first, and currently the do not.
So, where's the logic in that? One thing is consideration for others, but consideration should first be extended to U.S. citizens and their families, not to some "has been" dictator.
I always wondered how complete any checks in a foreign country could ever be, most would not allow US Government access to all their files or the files are not easily accessible or they can be amended for a small fee.
But logic has nothing to do with this, all a question of special interests.
Irish inclusion in the Green Card Lottery is another example.
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