CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS IN MEXICO:

CHANUKAH

Chanukah, one of the celebrations of light during the time of Winter Solstice begins at sunset on December 3 this year. Each evening, families light candles to remember the triumph of the Maccabees who regained control of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and the great miracle which happened there, when the remaining supply of consecrated oil burned for eight more days.

Amazed to discover Mexico’s large Jewish population, in what appears at first glance to be a completely Catholic country? Since Mexico was settled at the time of the Spanish Inquisition, it is not surprising to discover that many Spanish Jews made their way to freedom in the new world.

LA VIRGEN DE GUADALUPE

The celebration of the Virgin of Guadalupe, the Patrona of Mexico, the Queen of the Americas also begins on December 3 and culminates on her special day, December 12, when all Mexico pauses to celebrate the mother of God as she appeared on Tepeyac, the prehispanic site of the temple to Tontanslin , one of the most influential Aztec goddesses, asking that a temple be built to her on that site, as the Mother of Mexico.

An aura of sun rays surrounded the Virgin, when her image appeared on the tilma (cloak) of Juan Diego on December 12, 1531, marking her as an ambassador from the sun, the highest of all the Aztec gods. Her power, her light and her love are remembered for the nine days of processions and pilgrimages -- another fiesta of light.

The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe remains one of the great mysteries of the world. The image was first seen when Juan Diego dropped from his cloak the Castillian roses the Virgin produced as a sign to prove her existence showered from the tilma to the Bishop’s feet. That this rough handmade garment has lasted over 460 years is a mystery. The normal lifespan for the fabric which had been made from agave, the succulent from which Tequila is also made, would be from 10-20 years. This incredible image has survived unscathed by 166 years of unprotected display and reverent touching, the explosion of a bomb left in a nearby vase, and, in the 1800’s, silversmiths repairing the frame, spilled nitric acid which covered nearly two thirds of the cloth.

Over the centuries scientists and experts from around the world have inspected and tested the fabric, but have never detected a trace of ink or paint.

The Indians who saw the image read it much like you read these words. They saw that this woman was greater than the moon she stood on, but that she was lesser than and coming from the Sun god. Her blue green outer cloak told them that she was an ambassador, coming with messages from the most powerful of gods, the sun. The stars on her cloak formed the constellations as they appeared in the sky on December 12, 1531. At her waist was a black sash, as was worn by all pregnant women at that time. Most important of all, unlike the paintings and the statues in the churches, this messenger from God had skin the color of their own, a coppery brown.

In recent years, with the invention of more powerful microscopic instruments, study of the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe has continued, with more and more discoveries. First it was found that the highlight in her downcast right eye is a perfect profile image of Juan Diego. Years later, using computer imaging, scientists found as many as 18 persons in the eyes of the Virgin, one very Ghandi-like, another a black woman, and more.

All the science in the world, however cannot begin to understand the importance of the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico, in Latin America and in the United States. For this understanding, we must look at the people’s devotion to her, their relationship with her. This is not a simple viewing of an image in a silver frame, this is the relationship with a mother, a sister, a friend, a neighbor, another part of self.

The devotion to Guadalupe transcends any form of religious scope to become a symbol of Mexican nationalism and patriotism. Guadalupe creates a bond, a sense of being Mexican, of profound pride in being Mexican. Her influence crosses all borders and boundaries. She transcends the normal division of social strata found yet today in Mexico, and her devotees are the rich and humble, the industrialized and the farmer, the educated and the illiterate, the religious and the cynical. Her altar is a glitter of lights, roses and hope, the Mexican love for her is an endless hymn, the Mexican’s contact with her is hourly, she is the Mother of Mexico, the Queen of the Americas, She IS Mexico.

NACIMIENTOS

The first nacimiento or nativity scene was displayed in 1223 by Saint Francis of Assissi in Italy, when he recreated the ancient scene in a real stable, using barnyard animals and local persons.


Some of the first Mexican monks were taught by the Spanish to carve nativity figures. As with most religious customs in this country, traditional folklore has crept into some of the figures. A fascinating Sunday or Thursday excursion during late November and December is to the Tonala market which features dozens of stalls which sell nothing but supplies, bits and pieces for nacimientos.

Nacimientos have traditionally been the main decorations in local homes, businesses and churches, and what tributes they are. Using moss, sawdust, sand, and painted paper, multi-tiered bases are created to resemble hills, deserts, rivers and lakes. Whole villages appear on tabletops, and more characters and scenes are added each year Dozens of figures are lovingly arranged around December 14th, and kept on display until February 2.

Look for purely Mexican traditions and twists in the nacimientos, like the rooster who crowed to announce the birth of the child, fish in the river (from the lovely Mexican carol of the same name—Los Peces en el Rio), Lucifer lurking in his cave to tempt the shepherds from their journey, the Egyptians camping with their tents and pyramids. These are representations of complete villages, with wells, vendors with carts of fruits and vegetables, playing children, musicians, dancers, mutton and pork roasting on spits, even women making tortillas.

Foreigners are frequently confused when confronted by nativity scenes and other Christmas decorations all through January, and even into February. Even more puzzling to newcomers are 4 inch figures of Mary and Joseph, and a nearly life size Christ child. But there is tradition to explain this, too. On January 6, during the fiesta to honor the arrival of the Three Kings at the manger, a special ring-shaped bread called the “Rosca” will be served. Baked into the bread is one or more small plastic figures of the Child God. The guests who find these images in their serving of bread are named the Godparents of the Christ Child from the Nacimiento. It is then their responsibility to host a party on February 2, El Dia de Candlelaria or the Day of Purification, the final celebration of a Christmas holiday which began on December 3 with the beginning of nine day celebration of

The Virgin of Guadalupe.

At the time of the birth of the Christ Child, Jewish tradition and law forbade women access to the Temple for 40 days after the birth of a child. Mary and Joseph would have presented the Baby Jesus, the Child God in the Temple then on February 2. In many villages, the Child from the Nativity scene is dressed in a long white gown and bonnet, placed on a small chair and taken to the church to be blessed on February 2. In the newer church in Chapala, this custom is still practiced, with tiny clothing and shoes and accessories available at the church.

Nacimientos are especially important in Guadalajara, due to the artistic influence of Tlaquepaque, where many figures are made and a competition of creches is held each year.

LAS POSADAS

Las Posadas are a series of nine charming children’s processions which are uniquely, genuinely and exclusively Mexican, seemingly invented by the early Spanish missionaries solely to comfort and convert the former Aztecs.

The tradition of the nine days of processions (Posadas) began soon after the arrival of the Spaniards in Mexico. Clever San Ignacio de Loyola created the custom to teach the story of the birth of Jesus and more importantly to coincide with the nine day Fiestas of the Sun, which celebrated the virgin birth of the Aztec Sun god, Huitzilopchtli, from the 16th through the 24th of December. Special permission was received from Rome to celebrate nine “Christmas Masses” to represent the nine months of Mary’s pregnancy.

This December, children in the villages here at Lake Chapala, will set out each evening from the church for a pilgrimage to a different neighborhood. This procession symbolizes the journey made by Joseph and Mary from Nazareth to Bethlehem and Joseph’s search for shelter (Posada) at an Inn (also Posada). The peregrinos (pilgrims) include Joseph leading Mary on a burro, an Angel, shepherds, kings, and a large flock of excited, giggling, jostling, ***ping, wiggling, shiny-eyed others, most with bright ribbon and flower decked shepherds’ staffs which they tap in time to the music.

The lovely verses of the traditional Posada song are exchanged back and forth between Joseph and the group outside each house and the Innkeeper and the group inside. At each location, Joseph asks for entry, until finally at a prearranged location, the Innkeeper and friends sing from inside the shelter (house):

“Enter holy pilgrims, receive this humble corner, that while we know it is a poor lodging, it is given as the gift of heart.”

And the party begins, with joyous music, piñatas, with candy, fruit, and treats for everyone. Like the fiestas held by the ancients to honor Huitzilopochtli, the Mexican Posadas are full of the deepest of feeling—laughter mixed with deep spirituality, combined with the Mexican’s thirst for diversion from the daily sameness of survival. This is truly a merrily religious celebration, and for most of the children, far more anticipated than Christmas itself.

PIÑATAS

Although the Piñata originated in China, the traditional party favorite of Mexican children travelled along the trade routes to Italy where it was named pigata or pineapple in Italian, then to Spain in time to be taken to the new world by the missionaries. In every Mexican village, every few blocks there is a housewife making all sizes and designs of piñatas from fringed crepe paper and cardboard glued to a clay jar (cantero).

The serious symbolism of this simple party toy is very typical of Mexico as there is always more to understand than appears on the surface.

The decorated clay cantero represents Satan who often wears an attractive mask to attract humanity. The most traditional style of Piñata looks a bit like Sputnik, with seven points, each with streamers. These cones represent the seven deadly sins, and the breaking of the Piñata with the ensuing shower of sweets and fruits and nuts vividly shows the triumph of good over evil and the unknown joys and rewards which will be given in heaven to the good and faithful. The blindfolded participant represents the leading force in defying evil, faith, which must be blind, and is guided only by the voices of others crying “arriba, abajo, atras” (up, down, back). In Ajijic, the children cry out, “Chapala” or “San Juan”, the villages to the East and West, to indicate the location of the Piñata to the blindfolded child.

You will hear the parents and children singing special Piñata songs including a verse which says,

“I don’t need gold, nor do I desire silver
All that I want is to break the Pinata!”

PASTORELAS

When the missionaries arrived in Mexico, they often used exaggerated outdoor plays to teach many of the Christian legends and ideals to the Indians. Thus were born the Pastorelas, the wonderfully naïve, irony packed story of the birth of the Christ Child.

Today Pastorelas continue, with the script improvised by the participants. Especially fun are the simple country shepherds traveling to visit the newly born child in the manger, and the many encounters they have with Lucifer, his attractive disciples, and the ultimate battle of good and evil. Each year, amidst the jokes, jeers, laughter, songs, slang, bawdy humor, discussions, cigarettes, tequila, even ladies of the evening, it is a fight to the finish between Lucifer and the Archangel Gabriel. Even if you don’t understand Spanish, the broad acting, fun and laughter will give you the overview of this very typically Mexican tradition.

Watch for the Pastorelas on the steps of San Andres Church on Christmas Eve, in Plaza de los Fundadores, near the front of the Teatro Degalldo, in Guadalajara between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. daily during the nine days before Christmas. Other presentations may be announced in the Guadalajara Reporter.

CHRISTMAS EVE ( LA NOCHE BUENA) and CHRISTMAS (NAVIDAD)

Just six years after arrival of the Spaniards in Mexico, Father Pedro de Gante began the celebration of Christmas with the “Misa de Gallo” (The mass of the rooster) Held at midnight, the mass quickly became very popular with the newly-converted Indians.

To sustain the newly converted Indian Catholics with the comfort and continuity of the more familiar fiestas for the God of the Sun Huitzilopochtli, Father Diego de Soria and other priests added the familiar skyrockets (cohetes,) torches, sparklers (Luces de Bengala), the Pastorelas, the arrival of the Posadas from the various neighborhoods, displays of live nacimientos, piñatas, ponche (Christmas punch with a fruit base) groups of Indian dancers, tamales, and more to the Christmas celebration.

Christmas Eve in 1999 in Ajijic and Chapala will be much the same. More than 750 years after St. Francis of Assi’s first nacimiento, the patio of the main church of San Andres and in the plaza in Chapala will be filled with live nativities representing countries around the world, and areas of Mexico. Mary, Joseph, the baby, an angel and two shepherds will be dressed to reflect each region, as will a few well placed props. Expect to see wooden shoes and tulips, cotton snow on bushes with an igloo, Aztecs and other Indians, or “Africans” with wild animals. Each creche features a live cooing baby in the manger.

During the evening, the last Posada will arrive at the Church, to visit each manger. A group of local residents will honor the babe with traditional Indian dances while musicians play their gift and Mexicans and Anglos exchange greetings of Feliz Navidad and Merry Christmas, with hugs and abrazos, and feel the spirit of love and peace.. Be prepared to smile throughout the night as sounds of the celebrations of the Mexican community continue with music and joy.

Christmas Day (Navidad) is an unearthly quiet Mexican day, as the families sleep and recover after all-night festivities. Foreigners quietlymake their rounds on empty streets, to visit friends and enjoy feasts.

LA FLOR DE LA NOCHEBUENA

Few of our friends back home realize when they give and receive Poinsettias each holiday season, that Mexico gave the world this special holiday floral tribute.

Of the many names for this flower, the most beautiful is La Flor de la Nochebuena, (The Flower of the Holy Night). The ancients knew this plant as Cuetlaxochitl, which means “the flower of leather petals”. The ancients considered all flowers to be divine gifts of the Gods, not only because of their wonderful beauty, scent and color, but they were also believed to be metaphors of the most beautiful feelings. This star-shaped, red, winter-flowering plant was a special favorite long before the arrival of Columbus.

The Nochebuena was considered by the Aztecs to be a symbol of the new life earned by the warriors who died in battle. As hummingbirds and butterflies, these warriors would return to earth to sip the nectar of the Poinsettia. (Click for more info on the Nochebuena

DIA DE INOCENTES (Day of the Innocents)

It might be more accurate to refer to December 28 as December Fool’s Day, as on this day it is said that you can borrow something and never return it, and the day abounds with jokes and requests and fantastic stories, to convince the naive of lending almost everything.

It is believed the custom originally recalls King Herod’s instructions to kill all the newborn children in order to destroy the infant child god. It is typical of Mexico and Mexicans to laugh in the face of tragedy, to challenge the fears which intimidate.

In Victorian times, friends would send one another elaborate notes detailing some great tragedy or horrible problem requiring them to borrow sums of money, tools, or household items, much like an April Fool’s prank. When the friend, forgetting the day would respond, the prank player sent a gift of sweets or miniature toys in memory of the Innocents lost to Herod with a note saying “Innocent little dove who allowed yourself to be deceived, knowing that on this day, nothing should be lent.”

NEW YEAR’S EVE ( ANO VIEJO Y ANO NUEVA)

What would a celebration in Mexico be without music, dancing, skyrockets, fireworks? Not a celebration in Mexico! The New Year is ushered in with an abundance of noise, of wonderful fireworks and hundreds of skyrockets.

One may encounter a bit of a problem driving about the village, as logs or cars block off sections of streets where neighbors, friends and families celebrate in the street with huge bonfires, music, food and dancing. These parties may well last till dawn. One charming tradition is that one should eat twelve grapes, one with each stroke of the chiming bell, for luck in the coming 12 months. New Year’s Day is just a quiet and empty, and unearthly on the streets of the villages as Christmas Day as the Mexicans recover from the parties of the night before.

Four Mexican construction workers found stabbed to death in their Ohio apartment had just taken out large amounts of cash to bring back to Mexico for the holidays, a relative and a local parish priest said Thursday.

A crime that will never be solved! - You be the Judge

December 21st, 2007

Anybody think this is a priority to be solved? From the city that gives us Steve & Dale Sommers (we know their attitude towards Mexicans) Sheriff Richard Jones, who is on a crusade to rid “his” county of Mexicans’ and of course, the irascible and lovable Willy Cunningham! It’s a sad commentary how low some segments of American society have gone. But then, this is Cincinnati Ohio where murder is a daily occurrence, not to mention daily big rig accidents.

The murder of these 4 men deserves the same investigation and prosecution as occurred with the death of Marcus Feisel a couple of years ago.

The four undocumented migrants had been dead a week to nine days when they were found Dec. 13 in their apartment in the Cincinnati suburb of Sharonville.

Two of the victims left behind a wife and two children each, said Filemon Guardado, a second cousin of all four victims, speaking to The Associated Press by telephone.

“They were very hard working. They did not deserve this,” said Guardado, mayor of Villa de Ramos, a municipality that includes the men’s native village of Zacaton in the northern state of San Luis Potosi.

Guardado identified the men as brothers Jose de Jesus Duenas and Manuel Davila Duenas, 21 and 31; Lino Guardado, 43, and his 21-year-old nephew Conrado Lopez Guardado.

The mayor said he was informed of the deaths the day the bodies were found.

“I prayed to God that it wasn’t true, but sadly it is true,” he said.

Ohio investigators on Thursday declined to say if they had any leads in the case and have not made public any suspected motive.

But the widespread belief in Villa de Ramos is that the motive was robbery.

“They had just taken out money … apparently a lot of money,” community priest Julian Jimenez told the AP in a separate telephone interview.

“I think it was because they wanted to rob the money they had gotten together,” the mayor added, saying the men were killed just days before they were scheduled to return to Mexico to celebrate Christmas with the family.

Hamilton County Coroner O’dell Owens said three of the men apparently were killed in bed. Two showed signs of having struggled with an attacker, and each had been beaten and then stabbed in the heart.

The apartment was sparsely furnished and only one wallet, containing $1,300 in cash, was found there, Owens said. Authorities also found receipts, one for $2,500, indicating the men were sending money to relatives in Mexico.

The Mexican government said Thursday it would pay to repatriate the bodies at a yet-unspecified date. The Mexican government and U.S. immigration authorities also are helping Sharonville police in their investigation. Police have declined to say if they have any leads.

All four men worked as stonemasons, the mayor said. Jose de Jesus Duenas and Lopez had been in the U.S. for four years, while Lino Guardado and Manuel Davila Duenas arrived only eight months ago, he said.

An estimated 11 million Mexicans live in the United States, about 6 million of whom are undocumented.

Posted December 18, 2007 06:07 PM Hide Post
LaRaza Funded
By US Government
From Janet Lee Meisinger
12-18-7

Thanks to Major Bob Worn - USAF, Ret

Your Tax Dollars At Work. Poor, Dumb Amerika

Ladies and Gentlemen, I cannot emphasize my previously sent statement too many times more,,,,,,,,,,, Amerika, Poor, Dumb, Under-educated victims of the public fool system deserve everything they are about to get. Giving of their money to the infiltrating enemy is abominably stupid.

-- Bob Worn,
Pritchett, Texas

La Raza has been on the governments dole for several years. They want to take away America as we know it. You doubt what I say? Check out their website AFTER you scroll down. I have put their site address at the bottom of this message.


US Gov't Assistance to Recipient(s) "la raza" (FY 2006)


List of Recipients for Fiscal Year 2006

You can click on the column headers below to re-sort the search.

Recipient Name
State
Federal Funding (for this search)

LA CLINICA DE LA RAZA
California

$4,335,555

LA RAZA
District of Columbia

$496,000

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA
District of Columbia

$1,763,348


Total recipients for fiscal year 2006: 3

Federal funding (within this search) for the year : $6,594,903
mip://03864908/contact.php


La Raza Website:http://www.nclr.org/

Also, see:
http://vdare.com/guzzardi/070803_laraza.htm

http://www.vdare.com/malkin/060711_laraza.htm

http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2006/09/cair_laraza_imm.html

World USA Commentary Work & Money Learning Living Sci/Tech A & E Travel Books The Home Forum Home | About Us/Help | Archive | Subscribe | Feedback | Text Edition | Multimedia Search:


USA>Society & Culture
from the May 16, 2006 edition

Illegal immigrants in the US: How many are there?
By Brad Knickerbocker | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

No matter how the Bush administration and Congress act on illegal immigration in the US, any legislation or executive order is unlikely to answer the question: How many immigrants living in the country today are here illegally?
Depending on the source, the numbers range widely - from about 7 million up to 20 million or more.


Impacts of immigration reform
Stories
05/22/06


Bush's border plan: technology-focused

05/17/06


Guard's impact at border

05/17/06


In pushing for immigration reform, Bush aims to shore up GOP base

05/16/06


Illegal immigrants in the US: How many are there?

05/15/06


Remittances help keep kids in school - and in Mexico

05/12/06


For environmentalists, a growing split over immigration

Commentary
05/18/06


Tighter borders won't help the desperate

05/17/06


Bush's immigration conversion

04/19/06


Hiring illegals is just as illegal

04/19/06


The immigration issue won't be solved through politics

04/13/06


A Latino movement? Or just a moment?





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Nailing down such figures is impossible. Even settling on a ballpark figure is difficult given the official sources: the US Census, apprehensions along the US-Mexico border, and social service agencies. For one thing, illegal immigrants avoid responding to census questionnaires, states a 2005 report by Bear Stearns Asset Management Inc. in New York.


Based on the national census in 2000, the US Census Bureau puts the estimate of illegal immigrants at 8.7 million. As of 2003, the US Citizenship and Immigration Services put the number at 7 million. Since then, United States immigration officials have said the number has grown by as much as 500,000 a year.

Those closest to the fight to protect US borders say the figure is higher. The US Border Patrol union Local 2544 in Tucson, Ariz., says the total number of illegal immigrants in the US today is between 12 million and 15 million.

The Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research organization in Washington, estimates 11.5 million to 12 million "unauthorized migrants" live in the US today. It bases its numbers on the "Current Population Survey," a monthly assessment of about 50,000 households jointly conducted by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau.

But in a letter to a constituent in 2004, Sen. John McCain (R) of Arizona wrote: "According to the US Border Patrol apprehension statistics, almost four million people crossed our borders illegally in 2002." Although many are caught and made to leave the country, a significant number try again. No one knows for sure how many succeed, but Senator McCain's assertion would mean that the number crossing the border and disappearing into the US economy could be much higher than official estimates.

"Deriving estimates of the number of unauthorized, or illegal, immigrants is difficult because the government lacks administrative records of their arrival and departure, and because they tend to be undercounted in the census and other surveys of the population," wrote the Congressional Budget Office in 2004.

Citing school enrollments, foreign remittances, border crossings, and housing permits, researchers at Bear Stearns reported "significant evidence that the census estimates of undocumented immigrants may be capturing as little as half of the total undocumented population."

There may be as many as 20 million illegal immigrants in the US today - more than twice the official Census Bureau estimate, according to Bear Stearns researchers Robert Justich and Betty Ng.

Looking at states where most of the undocumented population lives today, they reported "very dramatic increases in services required in communities that have become gateways for immigration." These include public school enrollment, language proficiency programs, and building permits. (California, Texas, Florida, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Arizona, Georgia, and North Carolina account for about half the undocumented population.)

In addition, Bear Stearns found, these new undocumented workers are sending home significant amounts of money, suggesting that their numbers are considerably higher than official estimates. "Between 1995 and 2003, the official tally of Mexicans has climbed 56 percent, and median weekly wage has increased by 10 percent," the researchers found. "Yet total remittances jumped 199 percent over the same period. Even considering the declining costs of money transfers, the growth of remittances remains astounding."

One variable involves the relatives that join those coming across the border and form larger family units.

Nearly 14 million people (including 4.7 million children) live in "mixed status" families - in which the head of the household or the spouse is in the US illegally - Pew reported last summer. This is partly because children born in the US- regardless of their parents' legal status - are automatically US citizens.

"The large number of US citizen children born to parents with no legal status highlights one of the thorniest dilemmas in developing policies to deal with the unauthorized population," said Roberto Suro, director of the Pew Hispanic Center.

Whatever the total is, the annual number of illegal immigrants has exceeded those coming legally for at least the past 10 years: 700,000 illegally compared with 610,000 legally, according to Pew.

The number of "unauthorized migrants" (which includes some who have temporary permission to live in the US or those whose immigration status is unresolved), also has grown since legalization programs began in the mid-1980s, Pew reported last month: About 180,000 a year in the 1980s; 400,000 per year from 1990-1994; 575,000 per year from 1995-1999; and 850,000 per year from 2000-2005.

There's no doubt that Americans are concerned about the issue. "A growing number believe that immigrants are a burden to the country, taking jobs and housing and creating strains on the healthcare system," the Pew Hispanic Center wrote recently. "Many people also worry about the cultural impact of the expanding number of newcomers in the US."

Between 2000 and 2006, for example, the percentage of those polled who feel that immigrants are a burden because they take jobs and housing grew from 38 percent to 52 percent. At the same time, those who feel that immigrants "strengthen the US with their hard work and talents" dropped from 50 percent to 41 percent. In just the past 15 months, those who say "the growing number of newcomers from other countries threaten traditional American customs and values" has grown from 40 percent to 48 percent. Meanwhile, those who say newcomers "strengthen American society" has dropped from 50 percent to 45 percent.

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davdah
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:02 PM Hide Post
Hudson, actually there are laws preventing certain people from owning property now. It used to be the mortgage/real estate industry put on blinders when it came to due diligence in their practices. Now its a bit different. The days of 'stated income' loans and so forth are over. In most states the money to buy something has to be well documented as to where it came from. In Texas for example they do a lot more to verify who a person is before they hand over that deed.

I don't know what sort of twisted economics your reading from. The wage isn't reflective of the person's status? Of course the two are very connected. Low skilled or not the two are hand in hand.

Another very clear and easy to follow example. Construction. KB homes got nailed with several class action law suits for shoddy construction. Part of that was based on the fact they admitted to hiring a large percentage of 'migrant' workers. They actually confessed to it, what a surprise. Most of whom are not qualified to build anything as evidenced by the number of homes falling apart. Their excuse was they could not afford to pay the prevailing wage of union labor in this country. Granted, a union member is probably over paid but at least they know what they are doing. They are liable for their work and have standards they have to keep. How many reports have you read about legal construction workers not finding work due to the mass hiring of illegals? I have seen many. So the argument that the status has nothing to do with the job is completely off base.

Swift meats and any other meat packer can not and should not be allowed to use the excuse of skinny profit margins to justify exploiting labor. They do pay based on status and their profit margins are not that thin. Look up the CEO's, board of directors, management, and any non-illegal working there. It isn't so bad. By definition it is the reason they hire illegals. To underpay them. Add to that the identity theft, unpaid taxes, and the net cost of what they did is very large to the consumer. The only profit made was by Swift meats. If the cost of the identity theft, lost tax revenue, cost of the raids, cost to the victims of the identity theft, workers who should have had those jobs, and unemployment paid out to them from the state were all added up it would amount to 4 or 5 times what they paid those people.

If the food prices jumped 4.3% there are other issues involved. We have also seen increases passed on from foreign imports and the difference in currency exchange rates also affect it. A lot of our food comes from other countries. I'll leave that alone for now. What I want to comment on is the rest. A 10 cent increase per pound in chicken is going to equate to 10,000.00 a month in my spending on necessities? How much chicken do you think I eat? I'd have to ask the wife but it isn't much. About 10 lbs, if that. So I'm looking at about a $1.00 for me. If anyone eats that much it might be to their advantage to have their own chicken ranch. An increase in the cost of production of any widget (chicken or otherwise) not caused by demand will cause the demand to drop, not increase.

If a plant or two has to shut down because they can not compete due to paying true prevailing wage the affect will be negligible since the demand also dropped. The demand dropped due to the consumer price increase. But even if demand were to jump the initial shortage would be temporary at best. Think about it. If you were a chicken packer and demand just increased 100% what would you do? If it were me I would open another plant to meet the demand. The chicken rancher would acquire more land to raise more chickens too. That is how it works in the world. If people want more of anything the makers of it will supply it since there is money to be made. Its that simple. Now, if you were speaking in general terms saying that if all illegals were terminated from their jobs and it would cause such a huge increase in prices across the board I would still disagree. The other costs we don't see on the surface for keeping all of them employed would disappear. All of the fraud costs I mentioned would be gone. The increase in pay for the legal workers would actually be less that the true cost of keeping the illegal on the payroll. Even if it weren't it would not amount to anything close 10,000 a month. And most people are not that tight in their budget either. If they were why is everyone buying gas guzzling SUV's ?

The last comment about globalization. Those ancient civilizations didn't have the kind of globalization we have now. Not even close. We do trade with the rest of the world. Perhaps too much. Try to find something in Walmart NOT made in China (lol).

The one thing that amazes me Hudson is you should know better. You have access and knowledge of actual costs and so forth and keep twisting the numbers in obtuse ways. Why? I can understand someone here who never owned a business or being privy to economic data making ignorant claims but I am perplexed as to why you continue to post economic nonsense.


__________________________________________________________________
I may not like what you say but I've defended your right to say it.
Posts: 1341 | Location: San diego, CA & San Antonio TX | Registered: June 08, 2007

Ignored post by davdah posted December 22, 2007 02:02 PM Show Post

davdah
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:17 PM Hide Post
The Robert T Stafford portion dealt with disaster relief and had a lot to do with the use of the military and looters during events like Hurricane Katrina. This is an entirely different scenario. Also the summary exempted the military during domestic violence and many other events. The purpose of the act was for what? It was to more or less to keep law enforcement from deputizing a military person into police service. If Bush decides to put the army on the border he can. It almost sounds as though you want our borders to be unprotected. Is that the case?


__________________________________________________________________
I may not like what you say but I've defended your right to say it.
Posts: 1341 | Location: San diego, CA & San Antonio TX | Registered: June 08, 2007

Ignored post by davdah posted December 22, 2007 02:17 PM Show Post

explora
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:29 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beverly:

quote:
Originally posted by ProudUSC:


SoCal immigration detainee electrocuted

The Associated Press

Article Launched: 12/21/2007 10:14:19 AM PST


LOS ANGELES—A Mexican immigrant fighting deportation was accidentally electrocuted at the Mira Loma Detention Center in Lancaster, authorities said.

Cesar Gonzales-Baeza, 35, was moving fence posts as part of a voluntary work crew on Dec. 5 when the jackhammer he was using struck a high-voltage power line, according to Greg Moreno, an attorney for his family. He died two days later.

Gonzales-Baeza was detained 10 months ago after being stopped for a traffic violation and had been held while appealing his immigration case, Moreno said.

The lawyer said his client had a green card.

"This shouldn't have happened," Moreno said. "This is a man who should have been bonded out. He was a hardworking man, a father of two young boys. He wasn't a threat to society or anyone else. And now he is dead."

Further details about the immigration status of Gonzales-Baeza were not immediately available from authorities.

The Sheriff's Department, which operates the Lancaster facility, and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials were investigating the death, said Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman for the customs agency.


IF HE WAS AN ILLEGAL, ONE DOWN, 30 MILLION TO GO . . . . . If they don't have enough sense to leave on their own, they should all be rounded up, jailed and given the option self deportation or death by electrocution. These morons take kindness for weakness and its time to stop B.S-ing with these leeches.



Posts: 3218 | Registered: November 10, 2006

Ignored post by explora posted December 22, 2007 02:29 PM Show Post

explora
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:30 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beverly:

quote:
Originally posted by ProudUSC:
Only the absolute bottom of the gene pool would celebrate something like this, Whknapp. Unbelievable.


Only the absolute bottom from a 3rd world cesspool would root on law breaking, disease carrying, breedmare, overpopulating, lazy, non-assimilating bottom of the barrel, illiterate 3rd world genetic, mentally retarded, cultural losers to invade someone elses country and welcome them with open arms because they share a race.

SCREW YOU FAKE US CITIZEN LARAZA TRAITOR, TYPICAL LATEEEEEEENA COWARD, TOO **** CHICKEN TO EVEN ADDRESS ME.



Posts: 3218 | Registered: November 10, 2006

Ignored post by explora posted December 22, 2007 02:30 PM Show Post

explora
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:31 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beverly:

quote:
Originally posted by ProudUSC:
Merry Christmas!


Back at you little breedmare scum s-uc-k-er from the bottom of a 2000 gallon aquarium

A TOAST:

May the border be sealed before you get back from your 3rd world holiday!



Posts: 3218 | Registered: November 10, 2006

Ignored post by explora posted December 22, 2007 02:31 PM Show Post

davdah
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:48 PM Hide Post
NeedHelp, Almost missed your question. Where did I get my info? The best source of all. The jail itself. I talked to a few of the guards and they told me the majority are there, over 90%, for criminal activity. They get picked up for something else and at some point it is discovered they are illegal and are handed over. If its a GC holder they get sent too since it usually amounts to a violation of their GC status. In most cases it is about drugs. Either dealing or using.

I'm not saying all illegals are drug users. There are stats that say the average illegal is less likely to commit a crime than a USC. If its true then its one less strike. I have to question that since many illegals use fake identities and in many cases their illegal status isn't even known while incarcerated in a state or fed jail.

In so far as the case with the electrocuted inmate. I don't think he deserved to die unless he was being held for a murder/rape/molestation class of crime. It isn't proper for either side of the debate to use his demise for propaganda. There is far too much evidence to support the removal of illegals that it doesn't even need to be looked at. Aside pointing out how the la raza press is using it to promote their agenda. That in itself shows how weak and inhuman their case is.


__________________________________________________________________
I may not like what you say but I've defended your right to say it.
Posts: 1341 | Location: San diego, CA & San Antonio TX | Registered: June 08, 2007

Ignored post by davdah posted December 22, 2007 02:48 PM Show Post

explora
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:56 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beverly:

quote:
Originally posted by ProudUSC:


SoCal immigration detainee electrocuted

The Associated Press

Article Launched: 12/21/2007 10:14:19 AM PST


LOS ANGELES—A Mexican immigrant fighting deportation was accidentally electrocuted at the Mira Loma Detention Center in Lancaster, authorities said.

Cesar Gonzales-Baeza, 35, was moving fence posts as part of a voluntary work crew on Dec. 5 when the jackhammer he was using struck a high-voltage power line, according to Greg Moreno, an attorney for his family. He died two days later.

Gonzales-Baeza was detained 10 months ago after being stopped for a traffic violation and had been held while appealing his immigration case, Moreno said.

The lawyer said his client had a green card.

"This shouldn't have happened," Moreno said. "This is a man who should have been bonded out. He was a hardworking man, a father of two young boys. He wasn't a threat to society or anyone else. And now he is dead."

Further details about the immigration status of Gonzales-Baeza were not immediately available from authorities.

The Sheriff's Department, which operates the Lancaster facility, and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials were investigating the death, said Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman for the customs agency.


IF HE WAS AN ILLEGAL, ONE DOWN, 30 MILLION TO GO . . . . . If they don't have enough sense to leave on their own, they should all be rounded up, jailed and given the option self deportation or death by electrocution. These morons take kindness for weakness and its time to stop B.S-ing with these leeches.



Posts: 3218 | Registered: November 10, 2006

Ignored post by explora posted December 22, 2007 02:56 PM Show Post

explora
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 03:14 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beverly:

quote:
Originally posted by ProudUSC:


SoCal immigration detainee electrocuted

The Associated Press

Article Launched: 12/21/2007 10:14:19 AM PST


LOS ANGELES—A Mexican immigrant fighting deportation was accidentally electrocuted at the Mira Loma Detention Center in Lancaster, authorities said.

Cesar Gonzales-Baeza, 35, was moving fence posts as part of a voluntary work crew on Dec. 5 when the jackhammer he was using struck a high-voltage power line, according to Greg Moreno, an attorney for his family. He died two days later.

Gonzales-Baeza was detained 10 months ago after being stopped for a traffic violation and had been held while appealing his immigration case, Moreno said.

The lawyer said his client had a green card.

"This shouldn't have happened," Moreno said. "This is a man who should have been bonded out. He was a hardworking man, a father of two young boys. He wasn't a threat to society or anyone else. And now he is dead."

Further details about the immigration status of Gonzales-Baeza were not immediately available from authorities.

The Sheriff's Department, which operates the Lancaster facility, and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials were investigating the death, said Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman for the customs agency.


IF HE WAS AN ILLEGAL, ONE DOWN, 30 MILLION TO GO . . . . . If they don't have enough sense to leave on their own, they should all be rounded up, jailed and given the option self deportation or death by electrocution. These morons take kindness for weakness and its time to stop B.S-ing with these leeches.



Posts: 3218 | Registered: November 10, 2006

Ignored post by explora posted December 22, 2007 03:14 PM Show Post

explora
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 10:57 PM Hide Post
Merry Christmas ProudUSC! You've been called everything else already so I'll be certain to not 'call' you late for dinner!!
Posts: 3218 | Registered: November 10, 2006

Ignored post by explora posted December 22, 2007 10:57 PM Show Post

ProudUSC
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 11:06 PM Hide Post
Merry Christmas to you, Explora! I could use some dinner about now - I missed mine!

God Bless America and everyone else!
Posts: 1353 | Registered: February 07, 2007

Ignored post by ProudUSC posted December 22, 2007 11:06 PM Show Post

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Beverly
Frequent Member
Posted December 20, 2007 10:28 AM
NAFTA enters final stage
By JEREMY SCHWARTZ

Farmers and activists here are planning a series of protests as NAFTA enters its final stage on New Years Day, when the last of the tariffs and quotas Mexico has imposed on imported corn, beans, milk and sugar melt away.

Opponents of the North American Free Trade Agreement warn that the final lifting of trade barriers could spark even more migration from Mexico's devastated countryside and leave Mexico dependent on the United States for corn and beans, staple dishes since the age of the Aztecs.

At least one peasant group has said the NAFTA expansion could spark armed rebellion in the countryside if President Felipe Calderón's government doesn't do more to protect small farmers.

Corn and beans were considered especially sensitive to the Mexican economy when the free-trade agreement was signed in 1993, and officials buffered them with 15 years of gradually dwindling protections.

Government officials insist the Jan. 1 opening is largely symbolic.

NAFTA supporters in Mexico say protesters are trying to wrest more government aid by exaggerating the impact of the opening.

''It's an important date because it marks the end of the process,'' said Luis de la Calle, a Mexico City economist who helped negotiate the original agreement in the early 1990s. ``But in terms of the market there will be very little impact.''

But members of Mexico's left-leaning Democratic Revolution Party, or PRD, the second largest party in Congress, have called on Calderón to renegotiate the final opening and remove corn and beans from the list of unprotected trade goods.

SET IN STONE

Calderón however, has shown no inclination to tinker with the free-trade agreement.

''The government is scared of renegotiating [corn and bean tariffs] because renegotiating part could mean renegotiating the whole thing,'' said Jose Romero, a NAFTA expert at the College of Mexico. ``And they worry renegotiating could send bad signals to international financial markets.''

Mexican farm associations say Mexican farmers are woefully unprepared to face an onslaught of American corn, and decry the large subsidies that American corn farmers receive.

This week, the World Trade Organization launched an investigation into whether the United States has surpassed international limits on so-called trade distorting subsidies for its farmers by billions of dollars since 1999.

And American farmers are far more productive than their Mexican counterparts. According to the Mexican Institute of Competition, American farms produce an average of 22 tons of corn per acre, compared to just six tons on Mexican farms. .

Cruz Lopez, president of the National Farmers Confederation, said domestic corn producers fear they will go out of business, unable to compete with American imports, and leave Mexico dependent on the United States for its basic food needs.

''There is an abyss between the [subsidies] that we receive and those of the Canadian and U.S. farmers,'' he said. ``For us, it is very important to guarantee to the Mexican people that we can produce corn and beans.''

Mexican farmers are pushing for more subsidies from the Mexican government, and predicting dire consequences if they aren't helped.

''If this refusal to protect the national producers continues on the part of the government . . . the countryside could take the path of weapons and the guerrilla,'' Max Correa, leader of the Central Campesina Cardenista Peasant, a farmers' advocacy group, told the Mexican press recently. ``It's not a catastrophic vision, it's a reality.''

3 MILLION JOBS

Since Mexico entered into NAFTA, it has lost nearly three million farm jobs and seen a massive migration from the countryside to the United States. An estimated 80 percent of the 400,000 Mexicans who annually migrate to the United States are from rural areas.

Many experts say that the great bet of NAFTA -- that peasant farmers would find jobs in a burgeoning Mexican manufacturing industry -- hasn't been realized.

''The U.S. doesn't want them, the manufacturing industry can't absorb them, so where do they go?'' Romero said. ``They don't have the political strength to influence policies.''

Experts say the high worldwide price of corn, driven by ethanol production, should provide a buffer for Mexican farmers, but that could prove temporary.

The end of sugar tariffs, however, should benefit Mexican producers by opening up the lucrative American market, de la Calle said.

But Mexican sugar producers fret that high production costs in Mexico could slow exports to the United States.

Among the protest actions planned are street rallies in various Mexican cities and a human chain along the U.S.-Mexico border.

But with the Mexican Congress on holiday and Calderón uninterested in renegotiating, experts say the chances of heading off the opening are nonexistent.

http://www.miamiherald.com/business/v-print/story/351527.html


NAFTA has been a disaster for everybody. I see a war between the US and Mexico in the very NEAR FUTURE.
Posts: 398 | Registered: November 30, 2007

davdah
Power Member

Posted December 20, 2007 01:42 PM Hide Post
This is just great. Now Mexico has millions of uneducated rural farm workers they are going to sneak across our border. The only benefit is the labor pool for lettuce pickers will be fattened so the farmers here can get away with paying them even less. Maybe they should go south into Central or South America. There are plenty of farms down there. Question is, what do they grow?


__________________________________________________________________
I may not like what you say but I've defended your right to say it.
Posts: 1338 | Location: San diego, CA & San Antonio TX | Registered: June 08, 2007

Ignored post by davdah posted December 20, 2007 01:42 PM Show Post

Beverly
Frequent Member
Posted December 20, 2007 04:25 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by davdah:
This is just great. Now Mexico has millions of uneducated rural farm workers they are going to sneak across our border. The only benefit is the labor pool for lettuce pickers will be fattened so the farmers here can get away with paying them even less. Maybe they should go south into Central or South America. There are plenty of farms down there. Question is, what do they grow?


The only other solution (which would be more feasible to American taxpayers and Mexico's farmers) would be for the crooked US government to stop subsidizing the corn farmers with OUR MONEY and make them work for their living. Corn is not that cheap in the US when you're essentially paying for it TWICE.
Posts: 398 | Registered: November 30, 2007

Ignored post by Beverly posted December 20, 2007 04:25 PM Show Post

explora
Power Member

Posted December 22, 2007 02:38 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beverly:
NAFTA enters final stage
By JEREMY SCHWARTZ

Farmers and activists here are planning a series of protests as NAFTA enters its final stage on New Years Day, when the last of the tariffs and quotas Mexico has imposed on imported corn, beans, milk and sugar melt away.

Opponents of the North American Free Trade Agreement warn that the final lifting of trade barriers could spark even more migration from Mexico's devastated countryside and leave Mexico dependent on the United States for corn and beans, staple dishes since the age of the Aztecs.

At least one peasant group has said the NAFTA expansion could spark armed rebellion in the countryside if President Felipe Calderón's government doesn't do more to protect small farmers.

Corn and beans were considered especially sensitive to the Mexican economy when the free-trade agreement was signed in 1993, and officials buffered them with 15 years of gradually dwindling protections.

Government officials insist the Jan. 1 opening is largely symbolic.

NAFTA supporters in Mexico say protesters are trying to wrest more government aid by exaggerating the impact of the opening.

''It's an important date because it marks the end of the process,'' said Luis de la Calle, a Mexico City economist who helped negotiate the original agreement in the early 1990s. ``But in terms of the market there will be very little impact.''

But members of Mexico's left-leaning Democratic Revolution Party, or PRD, the second largest party in Congress, have called on Calderón to renegotiate the final opening and remove corn and beans from the list of unprotected trade goods.

SET IN STONE

Calderón however, has shown no inclination to tinker with the free-trade agreement.

''The government is scared of renegotiating [corn and bean tariffs] because renegotiating part could mean renegotiating the whole thing,'' said Jose Romero, a NAFTA expert at the College of Mexico. ``And they worry renegotiating could send bad signals to international financial markets.''

Mexican farm associations say Mexican farmers are woefully unprepared to face an onslaught of American corn, and decry the large subsidies that American corn farmers receive.

This week, the World Trade Organization launched an investigation into whether the United States has surpassed international limits on so-called trade distorting subsidies for its farmers by billions of dollars since 1999.

And American farmers are far more productive than their Mexican counterparts. According to the Mexican Institute of Competition, American farms produce an average of 22 tons of corn per acre, compared to just six tons on Mexican farms. .

Cruz Lopez, president of the National Farmers Confederation, said domestic corn producers fear they will go out of business, unable to compete with American imports, and leave Mexico dependent on the United States for its basic food needs.

''There is an abyss between