Originally posted by davdah: I was curious about that honorable and diciplinary father comment too. I wonder how old the children are. Perhaps the honor had to do with the would be doctor at the time getting his girlfriend pregnant. Diciplinary, that he was going to enact some revenge if he didn't marry hs daughter. Why did they have to elope? Usually you don't do that unless there is some shame involved. See what happens when the parents think of themselves. They took off to America and left their kids behind. The plot thickens.
Honor has curious underpins which you, nor S12, nor Cayita can never fully comprehend in this lifetime or the next. But for you, you have no honor. Here is what you have admitted that is not honorable: 1. Lived with a woman before marriage. Not honorable nor respectful from many perspectives, but what you care? 2. Filed a prenuptial as a condition of marriage. Again, not honorable. You are basically saying that you do not trust her, yet you want to marry her. I find this highly suspicious. 3. And finally, you have vilified her customs and traditions for your own selfishness. Again, not honorable to be selfish and not respecting your wife's heritage and customs.
You have no honor here, yet you riled on someone who made a mistake while claiming he or she had no honor. In a word, hypocrisy;.
What the hell are you taking about? More 'I'm Mr. perfect ramblings I see.' At least your numbering them now.
(comment # 1) You never lived with anyone prior to marriage? Never had S e x before marriage? Your wife wore white true to form for her marriage and you of course were as virtuous?
(comment # 2) If you had a lot which obviously you don't you would give it a second thought to leave yourself vulnerable to the one sided divorce laws.
(comment # 3) I vilified her customs? I haven't a clue what your even talking about with that one.
Where do you get off saying anyone can never understand anything? People like you are beyond amazing. You have zero tolerance for a differing opinion. Quick to make personal slanderous comments when you have no where to go with your argument. Show some intelligence with a better come back. Or are you going to continue the name calling.
And again you failed to understand the comments I made. Ok, I will spell it out so even you can understand it. Since the article made comments about honor and dicipline there must be something to it. Why mention it unless it had to do with some other facts, not given. Why did they elope? The obvious conclusion is they were probably sleeping together and her dad insisted they get married. She may have been pregnant to boot. Who cares. I'm not passing judgment about that. It merely fits the empty holes in the story. Doctor or not a stiff you know what has no conscience.
Vote Republican and this country will still be worth sneaking into.
Posts: 5013 | Location: San Antonio TX | Registered: 06-08-2007
This discussion deteriorates to the level of personal recriminations and name calling and it does not serve any purpose least of all an intelligent analysis of the issue at hand. Usually, I take the side of the underdog but it would be impossible in the situation as it is described. So, a poor doctor and his wife - a nurse - are being deported for a 23-year-old 'mistake'. Not so, in my thinking. There are two graduates of medical school, who by virtue of their education know very well the value of accurate information and the value of procedure. Both accurate information and procedure figure prominently in the practice of medicine or the medicine as we know it would be impossible to practice. And yet, they deliberately put the incorrect information on the immigration forms. Not a 'typo', no misspelling, no misunderstanding of the question. This is called a 'lie'. A lie defrauding the US government in order to get the immigration benefit to which they were not entitled. They got caught, they await deportation. So what's to argue about? I would probably have more sympathy if they were poor, uneducated and simply lost in the maze of a complicated procedure. But that's not the case here. On top of everything else they were not smart enough to consult an attorney before they've filed for citizenship. Sorry, no sympathy in this case. They've lied deliberately with full understanding of the consequences they're now facing.
Yes America, get rid of your brightest and most talented. Sure, this is going to be your future. Full of uneducated bigots and racists. Congratulations!
And yet, they deliberately put the incorrect information on the immigration forms.
From what I understand, their mothers filled out their paperwork, it took two years for her and another 2 for him. Since they were not the originators of the forms, and their status was single when the forms were filed, how did they intentionally lie?
I agree with Iperson. As I've said before, ICE should be concentrating on eliminating the bad elements that are living amongst us, not on people who are upstanding in every other right.
listening to iperson, the visa cheat and liar (yes, she told our embassy officials that she would be returning to beautiful downtown Warsaw after her studies...hmmmm...where is she now? In the US of A, berating this country...go home EET... and there is NO shortage of doctors in this country and we don't need nor want liars and visa cheats in this country, including iperson, the quintessential visa cheat.... these two 'hard working' types LIED and committed FRAUD against MY government, and now, MY government is poised to deport their sorry butts....good...sends a message to all would-be fraudsters....and explora....tell us again....what race are visa cheats? Polish? Filipino? Mexican? You choose...then you can be the racist and bigot....but illegal aliens (and visa cheats, just like you) come from almost every country....
I am wondering why arent people like you Verbalist and S12, etc. raising hell when bulglars, thiefs, and other criminals are let out of prison after 5-20 years. For Pete's sakes, this is AMNESTY!!! NO!! NO!! NO!!
No? Or doesn't matter because they are US criminals.
Dear ProudUSC - here is the quote from the original article:
"...They had come to the United States under the guise of being single, not as a married couple, the Servanos were told. They had gotten married in the interim between living in the Philippines and moving to America. They had filled out the wrong forms and would therefore be deported..."
To me it means that THEY (not their mothers) have filled out the forms and in any case THEY were probably asked if ANYTHING has changed in their status and lied.
That, in my opinion, is the reaseon that the IJ concluded:
“There was no abuse of discretion in denying Mrs. Servano’s application for a deportation waiver, or Mr. Servano’s request for suspension of deportation. The adverse credibility determinations... were based on substantial evidence, and supported the finding that Mr. Servano could not establish good moral character...”
The fact that they lived here for 23 years and were generally "good" people means nothing because they have lied at the time of coming to the US.
Dear Iperson: please see my post in reply to Abhi (URGENT HELP NEEDED). I am sympathetic to the plight of immigrants legal or not. But I can't find sympathy for people in this case. I've read many posts here where people literally begged for help, who were without money, friends and any resources and to them I extend my sympathy. The people described here are represented (ably, I think) not by one but by two high power attorneys, they have on their side an ICE employee and a US Senator. If, despite so much pressure being brought on the USCIS, they are still being deported - something must be screwy here.
And I have no sympathy for criminals regardless of their immigration status. Incidentally, I do not regard illegal aliens as criminals.
So, take a deep breath, step back and look at this case again. There are times when you really need to help and then, there are times when the sympathy is misplaced.
bottom line, during their interview, they were asked orally and in writing if EVERYTHING on their applications were true...oops....they decided to lie....it matters not that their respective mothers filled out the initial petition...these two lairs had to fill out more forms and answer truthfully, under oath, that everything written and stated was true...now, how does one 'forget' that one is married????? ...."your attention please, now boarding at gate 23, United flight *** to Manila....."
Well I hope they will find a better life somewhere else in the world. The US is not a desirable country to live in anymore anyway. So who cares really?
dear iperson: since the majority of your mindless posts do little more than castigate the US of A, why don't you just toss your undeserved green card in the trash can and haul your sorry behind back to Poland? Why aren't you abandoning this country that you allegedly despise so much? If life in Poland is soooooo much better than it is here, then please, by all means, LEAVE....but for some reason, you stay.....why? (hint: hypocrisy)
The reason I haven't left is because this country's majority are normal people, and only a handful of racist bigots like you. It is a shame KKK and other Nazi like organizations are not persecuted, and such racist speech like the one from S12 and alike are not forbidden.
no, it is because you lack the courage of your so-called convictions....remind me again....what race are illegal aliens or fraudsters? Because, you see, they are not a race and I have not singled out a particular culture as being the sole source of illegals or fraudsters...so you should buy an English dictionary and study up on the meanings of 'racist' and 'bigot'.....but then, you, like all illegal alien supporters, resort to the usual 'racist' and KKK remarks when your own pathetic rationale is exposed for the meaningless, worthless opinion that it is....and none of you have ever been able to provide a rational, logical, legal explanation as to why illegals or fraudsters should be rewarded....because you can't.....(now it's time to call me a racist or a member of the KKK -- oooh...ouch....boy, am I insulted or what - not)....turn in your greencard, you ungrateful EET and go back to the land of cabbage.
Originally posted by Someone12: no, it is because you lack the courage of your so-called convictions....remind me again....what race are illegal aliens or fraudsters? Because, you see, they are not a race and I have not singled out a particular culture as being the sole source of illegals or fraudsters...so you should buy an English dictionary and study up on the meanings of 'racist' and 'bigot'.....but then, you, like all illegal alien supporters, resort to the usual 'racist' and KKK remarks when your own pathetic rationale is exposed for the meaningless, worthless opinion that it is....and none of you have ever been able to provide a rational, logical, legal explanation as to why illegals or fraudsters should be rewarded....because you can't.....(now it's time to call me a racist or a member of the KKK -- oooh...ouch....boy, am I insulted or what - not)....turn in your greencard, you ungrateful EET and go back to the land of cabbage.
Originally posted by Verbalist: This discussion deteriorates to the level of personal recriminations and name calling and it does not serve any purpose least of all an intelligent analysis of the issue at hand. Usually, I take the side of the underdog but it would be impossible in the situation as it is described. So, a poor doctor and his wife - a nurse - are being deported for a 23-year-old 'mistake'. Not so, in my thinking. There are two graduates of medical school, who by virtue of their education know very well the value of accurate information and the value of procedure. Both accurate information and procedure figure prominently in the practice of medicine or the medicine as we know it would be impossible to practice. And yet, they deliberately put the incorrect information on the immigration forms. Not a 'typo', no misspelling, no misunderstanding of the question. This is called a 'lie'. A lie defrauding the US government in order to get the immigration benefit to which they were not entitled. They got caught, they await deportation. So what's to argue about? I would probably have more sympathy if they were poor, uneducated and simply lost in the maze of a complicated procedure. But that's not the case here. On top of everything else they were not smart enough to consult an attorney before they've filed for citizenship. Sorry, no sympathy in this case. They've lied deliberately with full understanding of the consequences they're now facing.
i would disagree, Verbalist. It is a lie if they knowingly and willingly committed that lie. What we have here is a hindsight and transference of immigration law of today (1997) to what the law was in 1980's. I talked to a couple of immigration attorneys with over 30 years experience. What they said was that the level of scrutiny from the Philippines was not that great. If fact, it was very lax. the key is the questioning either at the POE and/or at the Embassy in Manila. If the foreign service officer did not ask direct, specific questions, like they do today, the potential immigrants would be answering questions based on their own interpretations. That is not fraud, but a mistake by both them as the US government.
The IJ gave the worst case scenario. It is the equivalent of the IRS going back to 1982 where you checked single instead of married filing separately, then charging you with tax fraud, a civil penalty of $100,000 and a jail time of 20 years.
Finally, the immigration forms are very difficult to understand for most people. The instructions are not that clear, and sometimes confusing. I have found instructions of some of the most complicated and complex forms easier to understand and complete than I can with some of the simpliest INS/USCIS forms.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
What the hell are you taking about? More 'I'm Mr. perfect ramblings I see.' At least your numbering them now.
I have neither said I was or was not perfect. That is the allusion you created.
quote:
What the hell are you taking about? More 'I'm Mr. perfect ramblings I see.' At least your numbering them now.
(comment # 1) You never lived with anyone prior to marriage? Never had S e x before marriage? Your wife wore white true to form for her marriage and you of course were as virtuous?
(comment # 2) If you had a lot which obviously you don't you would give it a second thought to leave yourself vulnerable to the one sided divorce laws.
(comment # 3) I vilified her customs? I haven't a clue what your even talking about with that one.
The point is that you are asking, or requesting, immigrants to perfomr or adhere to duties that most Americans cannot even do in this lifetime. That is the reality. The fact is the Servanos made a mistake, a costly mistake nevertheless. But the reprocity condemning them like a mass murderer is also a violation by the "Rights of Man." This is the problem with technicalities along with extreme punishment of deportation. This is what most immigration advocates call immigration law not in coherence with society today.
quote:
Where do you get off saying anyone can never understand anything? People like you are beyond amazing. You have zero tolerance for a differing opinion.
Be careful, you are describing yourself more than you are describing anyone else.
quote:
And again you failed to understand the comments I made. Ok, I will spell it out so even you can understand it. Since the article made comments about honor and dicipline there must be something to it. Why mention it unless it had to do with some other facts, not given. Why did they elope? The obvious conclusion is they were probably sleeping together and her dad insisted they get married. She may have been pregnant to boot. Who cares. I'm not passing judgment about that. It merely fits the empty holes in the story. Doctor or not a stiff you know what has no conscience.
Cayita is the one who made the comment about honor, not the article. You resopned to Cayita. Given that fact, I sued the motif of honor as a backdrop that most Americans, if placed in the same predictament, will never be able to live up to, but expect, and sometimes demand, an immigrant to do the same. This is what I call hypocrisy. I sued your information, living with a girl prior to marriage, prenuptials, and the custom of taking the shoes off, as an example to show, if placed in the exact same situation, you would not be able to meet those unreasonable expectations. This was the point of my response to not only you, but Cayita and others.
What you also thought was it was *** related, getting the girl pregnant because they eloped; yet you know nothing, zilch, of the society or culture there at that time. It was vastly different compared to today. Eloping, in a society like the Philippines, and especially with a discplinary father is not because they were sleeping together, but because society expected them to get married. The father said, "if you are going to spend that much time together, you might as well be wed." The connotation means they were dating and spending time like husband and wife. To put it in terms you can understand, it would be like after 10 dates, the father expected you to marry the girl. It was not about *** per se. Your response shows where your mind was, in the gutter. And your response does not fit the empty holes, just the political idealogy to fit your assertion.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hudson,
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams on Defense of the boston Massacre
Well, Hudson, at least we are agreeing on a disagreement. I appreciate your insight, as well as the complexity of the immigration law and their misbegotten forms, however, I read:
"...In 2002, they lost at the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, one legal step removed from the Supreme Court.
On April 3, 2002, three judges denied the Servanos’ request for relief from deportation, returning the following ruling:
“There was no abuse of discretion in denying Mrs. Servano’s application for a deportation waiver, or Mr. Servano’s request for suspension of deportation. The adverse credibility determinations... were based on substantial evidence, and supported the finding that Mr. Servano could not establish good moral character...”
Now, don't you think this case was scrutinized and analyzed to death by the very best lawyers even before the appeal was made? If the three judges panel came to such decision they must've weighted all the circumstances surrounding this case and still have reached the conclusion they did.
It is impossible to make further inferences from the facts presented here but, all in all, I find it implausible that the appellate court would reach a conclusion that a fraud was committed without a very solid foundation.
I know I won't be able to convince you, so let's just leave it at that and move on to new challenges.
Meanwhile I more concerned about Mr. Abhi from yesterday's post URGENT HELP NEEDED ---PROBLEM in GETTING BACK to my COUNTRY.. who is 65 years old, without friends and resources and only wants to return to his country with a minimum fuss.
My best regards.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Verbalist,
no doubt proudusc,explora and iperson know far much more about immigration law than some immigration judge....but your point is well taken..this case has been under a microscope more than once and if the court says 'fraud' after all this discussion, who I am to disagree? So let's all wave the Servano's good-bye....bye bye...
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