The overwhelming single cause of aviation crashes is pilot error. Usually pilot arrogance. Most aircraft are very safe and can nearly fly themselves. It's when the pilot thinks he/she can outsmart the weather or that they are more skilled than they are that things go bad.

CNN

The bodies of two men -- believed to be from Monday's crash of an Air France plane -- were found Saturday morning, a Brazilian air force spokesman said Saturday.


A seat and a suitcase were recovered at sea by a vessel participating in the search, Jorge Amaral said. Also found were a backpack containing a laptop, an airline ticket and a oxygen mask, the Brazilian navy and air force said.



Earlier Saturday, aviation investigators said Flight 447 sent out 24 automated error messages, including one saying the aircraft's autopilot had disengaged, before it vanished with 228 people on board.

They also reported that the airline had failed to replace a part, as recommended by the manufacturer, Airbus.

Airbus had advised airlines to update equipment that monitors speed, known as Pitot tubes. The recommendation was a result of technological developments and improvements, an Airbus spokesman told CNN's Richard Quest. The change was not mandatory, and the spokesman would not comment on Air France's failure to follow the advice.

Planes have crashed because of faulty or blocked Pitot tubes in the past, Quest said, and there was clearly something wrong with the doomed plane's speed-monitoring equipment.

But it may be a mistake to place too much emphasis on the Pitot tubes, he added, as the jet apparently was experiencing massive system failures.

Even as they analyzed the error messages and satellite images of the doomed flight's path, investigators said they still have a lot of work to determine what caused the plane to go down.



Full story

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sprint_girl07,

The autopilot being disengaged was probably done by the pilot when they hit the turbulence. A pitot tube is used by the air speed indicator. Although normally at cruising speed or there abouts it wouldn't matter much. In a situation like this all aircraft have whats called maneuvering speed. A 'safer' speed to operate at when things get very rough. It could be they were exceeding it due to inaccurate indications from a faulty pitot tube. Given they were flying through precipitation at high altitude it could have frozen over and rendered the air speed indicator inoperative..

I would think they had something a little more less antiquated than a pitot tube based air speed indicator, Or at least not relied on it,

I don't think I will ever fly again after this tragedy. Flying was never my thing, but after this, I think I'll just say no.

quote:

I would think they had something a little more less antiquated than a pitot tube based air speed indicator, Or at least not relied on it

More sophisticated airplanes use several pitot tubes. At least a pair for each side. The likelihood of both freezing or blocking is minor. I don't know how else you could measure the relative wind other than using a pitot tube?



Another crash where inadvertent icing added to the problems:

AirFlorida flt 90 1982

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:
I don't think I will ever fly again after this tragedy. Flying was never my thing, but after this, I think I'll just say no.

Proud, have you ever checked how many planes are in the air around the world on a daily basis? Compare that to the crashes we have every now and than, you'd be surprised to learn that flying is still the safest way to travel. The probability to die in a plane crash is the same as getting struck by lightening. It's tragic that so many parish when one goes down. I'll fly...just don't fly Hindukush Airlines!

quote:

Originally posted by Kollerkrot:

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:
I don't think I will ever fly again after this tragedy. Flying was never my thing, but after this, I think I'll just say no.

Proud, have you ever checked how many planes are in the air around the world on a daily basis? Compare that to the crashes we have every now and than, you'd be surprised to learn that flying is still the safest way to travel. The probability to die in a plane crash is the same as getting struck by lightening. It's tragic that so many parish when one goes down. I'll fly...just don't fly Hindukush Airlines!

It took me years to get back on a plane after the New York to Paris flight blew up shortly after take-off carrying those students. I know air travel is supposed to be one of the safest means, but I prefer to have a little more control over my destiny. I can't imagine what those poor passengers went through during their last minutes of life. It had to be terrible.

Brit, there are other ways to determine speed. Most modern aviation GPS units do a good job of it now. I'm sure they had it on board. The one I use, a garmin, is nearly spot on with the pitot system. Moe than likely the pilot panicked when things got ugly. Didn't turn around and forgot to take it down to maneuvering speed and lost it.


Flying is safer. But, if there is an accident you are far less likely to walk away. It also has to with size. The smaller the plane the more landing options and slower the air speed. I would think flying right after an accident is best. Everyone is more careful and paranoid.

True about the GPS but why does the FAA still require an airspeed indicator? Because it's a simple and reliable instrument unless it gets frozen over or blocked up. The frozen bit is easy, switch on pitot heat, blocked a bit more difficult but that's why there's more than one. System redundancy is the name of the game.

I sure hope it turns out that faulty speed controls caused this crash rather than terrorism.

Crash Probe: Passengers on Air France Jet Had Terror Links

Wednesday, June 10, 2009

Two passengers with names linked to Islamic terrorism were on board the Air France flight that crashed in the Atlantic Ocean, killing all 228 on board, it has emerged.

French secret servicemen established the connection while working through the list of those who boarded the doomed Airbus in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on May 31.

Agents are now trying to establish dates of birth for the two dead passengers, and family connections.

There is a possibility that the name similarities are simply a "macabre coincidence," the source added, but the revelation is still being "taken very seriously."

Flight AF447 crashed in mid-Atlantic en route to Paris during a violent storm.

While it is certain that there were computer malfunctions, terrorism has not been ruled out.

Soon after news of the fatal crash broke, agents working for the DGSE (Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure), were dispatched to Brazil.

It was there that they established that two names on the passenger list are also on highly classified documents listing the names of radical Muslims considered a threat to the French Republic.

A source working for the French security services told Paris weekly L’Express that the link was "highly significant."

France has received numerous threats from Islamic terrorist groups in recent months, especially since French troops were sent to fight in Afghanistan.

Security chiefs have been particularly worried about airborne homicide attacks similar to Sept. 11.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525642,00.html

quote:

Originally posted by Sprint_girl07:
CNN

The bodies of two men -- believed to be from Monday's crash of an Air France plane -- were found Saturday morning, a Brazilian air force spokesman said Saturday.


A seat and a suitcase were recovered at sea by a vessel participating in the search, Jorge Amaral said. Also found were a backpack containing a laptop, an airline ticket and a oxygen mask, the Brazilian navy and air force said.



Earlier Saturday, aviation investigators said Flight 447 sent out 24 automated error messages, including one saying the aircraft's autopilot had disengaged, before it vanished with 228 people on board.

They also reported that the airline had failed to replace a part, as recommended by the manufacturer, Airbus.

Airbus had advised airlines to update equipment that monitors speed, known as Pitot tubes. The recommendation was a result of technological developments and improvements, an Airbus spokesman told CNN's Richard Quest. The change was not mandatory, and the spokesman would not comment on Air France's failure to follow the advice.

Planes have crashed because of faulty or blocked Pitot tubes in the past, Quest said, and there was clearly something wrong with the doomed plane's speed-monitoring equipment.

But it may be a mistake to place too much emphasis on the Pitot tubes, he added, as the jet apparently was experiencing massive system failures.

Even as they analyzed the error messages and satellite images of the doomed flight's path, investigators said they still have a lot of work to determine what caused the plane to go down.



Full story

You are disgusting; I think you are that other screenname minaldi or whatever the terrorist. Why is it you are so bitterly anti-life that is all you discuss? Killing and murdering non-muslims? And you always defend them. Disgusting. ProudUSC was right about you.

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by Sprint_girl07:
CNN

The bodies of two men -- believed to be from Monday's crash of an Air France plane -- were found Saturday morning, a Brazilian air force spokesman said Saturday.


A seat and a suitcase were recovered at sea by a vessel participating in the search, Jorge Amaral said. Also found were a backpack containing a laptop, an airline ticket and a oxygen mask, the Brazilian navy and air force said.



Earlier Saturday, aviation investigators said Flight 447 sent out 24 automated error messages, including one saying the aircraft's autopilot had disengaged, before it vanished with 228 people on board.

They also reported that the airline had failed to replace a part, as recommended by the manufacturer, Airbus.

Airbus had advised airlines to update equipment that monitors speed, known as Pitot tubes. The recommendation was a result of technological developments and improvements, an Airbus spokesman told CNN's Richard Quest. The change was not mandatory, and the spokesman would not comment on Air France's failure to follow the advice.

Planes have crashed because of faulty or blocked Pitot tubes in the past, Quest said, and there was clearly something wrong with the doomed plane's speed-monitoring equipment.

But it may be a mistake to place too much emphasis on the Pitot tubes, he added, as the jet apparently was experiencing massive system failures.

Even as they analyzed the error messages and satellite images of the doomed flight's path, investigators said they still have a lot of work to determine what caused the plane to go down.



Full story

You are disgusting; I think you are that other screenname minaldi or whatever the terrorist. Why is it you are so bitterly anti-life that is all you discuss? Killing and murdering non-muslims? And you always defend them. Disgusting. ProudUSC was right about you.

ProudUSC has said nothing about this. Stop it, SOM.

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by Sprint_girl07:
CNN

The bodies of two men -- believed to be from Monday's crash of an Air France plane -- were found Saturday morning, a Brazilian air force spokesman said Saturday.


A seat and a suitcase were recovered at sea by a vessel participating in the search, Jorge Amaral said. Also found were a backpack containing a laptop, an airline ticket and a oxygen mask, the Brazilian navy and air force said.



Earlier Saturday, aviation investigators said Flight 447 sent out 24 automated error messages, including one saying the aircraft's autopilot had disengaged, before it vanished with 228 people on board.

They also reported that the airline had failed to replace a part, as recommended by the manufacturer, Airbus.

Airbus had advised airlines to update equipment that monitors speed, known as Pitot tubes. The recommendation was a result of technological developments and improvements, an Airbus spokesman told CNN's Richard Quest. The change was not mandatory, and the spokesman would not comment on Air France's failure to follow the advice.

Planes have crashed because of faulty or blocked Pitot tubes in the past, Quest said, and there was clearly something wrong with the doomed plane's speed-monitoring equipment.

But it may be a mistake to place too much emphasis on the Pitot tubes, he added, as the jet apparently was experiencing massive system failures.

Even as they analyzed the error messages and satellite images of the doomed flight's path, investigators said they still have a lot of work to determine what caused the plane to go down.



Full story

You are disgusting; I think you are that other screenname minaldi or whatever the terrorist. Why is it you are so bitterly anti-life that is all you discuss? Killing and murdering non-muslims? And you always defend them. Disgusting. ProudUSC was right about you.

ProudUSC has said nothing about this. Stop it, SOM.

I wasn't specifically referring to this but to all the other things you have told me about her. You have been good friend to me and I thank you for your warnings.

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by Sprint_girl07:
CNN

The bodies of two men -- believed to be from Monday's crash of an Air France plane -- were found Saturday morning, a Brazilian air force spokesman said Saturday.


A seat and a suitcase were recovered at sea by a vessel participating in the search, Jorge Amaral said. Also found were a backpack containing a laptop, an airline ticket and a oxygen mask, the Brazilian navy and air force said.



Earlier Saturday, aviation investigators said Flight 447 sent out 24 automated error messages, including one saying the aircraft's autopilot had disengaged, before it vanished with 228 people on board.

They also reported that the airline had failed to replace a part, as recommended by the manufacturer, Airbus.

Airbus had advised airlines to update equipment that monitors speed, known as Pitot tubes. The recommendation was a result of technological developments and improvements, an Airbus spokesman told CNN's Richard Quest. The change was not mandatory, and the spokesman would not comment on Air France's failure to follow the advice.

Planes have crashed because of faulty or blocked Pitot tubes in the past, Quest said, and there was clearly something wrong with the doomed plane's speed-monitoring equipment.

But it may be a mistake to place too much emphasis on the Pitot tubes, he added, as the jet apparently was experiencing massive system failures.

Even as they analyzed the error messages and satellite images of the doomed flight's path, investigators said they still have a lot of work to determine what caused the plane to go down.



Full story

You are disgusting; I think you are that other screenname minaldi or whatever the terrorist. Why is it you are so bitterly anti-life that is all you discuss? Killing and murdering non-muslims? And you always defend them. Disgusting. ProudUSC was right about you.

ProudUSC has said nothing about this. Stop it, SOM.

I wasn't specifically referring to this but to all the other things you have told me about her. You have been good friend to me and I thank you for your warnings.

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by ProudUSC:

quote:

Originally posted by SonofMichael:

quote:

Originally posted by Sprint_girl07:
CNN

The bodies of two men -- believed to be from Monday's crash of an Air France plane -- were found Saturday morning, a Brazilian air force spokesman said Saturday.


A seat and a suitcase were recovered at sea by a vessel participating in the search, Jorge Amaral said. Also found were a backpack containing a laptop, an airline ticket and a oxygen mask, the Brazilian navy and air force said.



Earlier Saturday, aviation investigators said Flight 447 sent out 24 automated error messages, including one saying the aircraft's autopilot had disengaged, before it vanished with 228 people on board.

They also reported that the airline had failed to replace a part, as recommended by the manufacturer, Airbus.

Airbus had advised airlines to update equipment that monitors speed, known as Pitot tubes. The recommendation was a result of technological developments and improvements, an Airbus spokesman told CNN's Richard Quest. The change was not mandatory, and the spokesman would not comment on Air France's failure to follow the advice.

Planes have crashed because of faulty or blocked Pitot tubes in the past, Quest said, and there was clearly something wrong with the doomed plane's speed-monitoring equipment.

But it may be a mistake to place too much emphasis on the Pitot tubes, he added, as the jet apparently was experiencing massive system failures.

Even as they analyzed the error messages and satellite images of the doomed flight's path, investigators said they still have a lot of work to determine what caused the plane to go down.



Full story

You are disgusting; I think you are that other screenname minaldi or whatever the terrorist. Why is it you are so bitterly anti-life that is all you discuss? Killing and murdering non-muslims? And you always defend them. Disgusting. ProudUSC was right about you.

ProudUSC has said nothing about this. Stop it, SOM.

I wasn't specifically referring to this but to all the other things you have told me about her. You have been good friend to me and I thank you for your warnings.

Rolleyes doesn't cut it PROUD. He is inciteful, be careful. Don't answer him if you can't handle that a.ss.

DO me a favor everyone, just ignore that scum.
Proud, please don't even bother answering to his trouble making lies because that just lets him think he is winning by getting attention.

I ignored his private PM's to me that was purposely to cause trouble, (lies about you) hoping it would cause a war between members, so I hope everyone else can do same.
Just ignore his lies.

SOM..I warned you if you keep wanting to do this, it would be only fair to give back some of your own medicine, didn't I? Well you chose what you wanted.


All in good time

quote:

Originally posted by Brit4064:
True about the GPS but why does the FAA still require an airspeed indicator? Because it's a simple and reliable instrument unless it gets frozen over or blocked up. The frozen bit is easy, switch on pitot heat, blocked a bit more difficult but that's why there's more than one. System redundancy is the name of the game.

Usually that is a good idea. The more the merrier. Some of the things I've seen make me wonder about aviation in general. There seems to be a reluctance to change overall. More of something that doesn't work well isn't better.

The pitot tube system is one of them. In a severe storm it wouldn't be unthinkable, with the amount of precipitation going on, that all of them could get frozen over. Having to rely on heaters to unplug them after the fact would cause an already tense situation to get worse with the time required to melt the ice.

If I read correctly. In that aircraft the air speed indicator has some independent control over engine speed. If that is true and it being reliant on the pitot tube which is subject to freezing spells it could easily cause the engines to rev much higher than they should. Which would result in it being impossible to maintain a slower maneuvering speed in the worst possible circumstance, being in the thick of a thunderstorm. No one thought of that? I would hope there be some automatic disengagement of the airspeed indicator's affect on the engines if its known the pitots were plugged.

There should be at minimum some sensor to determine if the plane is in motion with a slight but constant variance in speed and the airspeed indicator showing otherwise. A blocked pitot would cause either zero or be stuck at the speed just prior to the pitot freezing. Either way the indicated speed would be much slower than actual. I think this crash will cause some people to rethink their dinosaur mentality.

What I don't get is, that why if they knew they had problems with the speed monitors a year ago, why did they only start changing them only a few weeks before the accident?
Surely something like that is vital and should have done it immediately?

Its something that applies to nearly all aircraft. A pitot tube is basically a hollow tube facing forward that catches air flowing in.

The pressure of that air is compared to a static source of air, non-moving air at the same altitude, to determine relative speed of the aircraft through the air.

Sounds simple enough. Problem is. The hole going into that tube is small and it doesn't take much to plug it up. At 30+ thousand feet its nearly always below zero in temperature. Add a little water and ice forms quickly. Most aircraft have heaters to warm the tubes if they get frozen over. The next problem is the time it takes to accomplish that. While waiting for the tubes to thaw your airspeed indicators are worthless.

On smaller aircraft you can still guess your approximate speed based on the throttle position. Not a big deal. Even in rough weather you would be able to get the speed within the ball park of safety if the tubes froze over.

That works fine except if the airspeed indicator controls the throttle. I couldn't imagine a scarier situation. Being in a sever storm. Pitots frozen over and the engines revving up to full throttle because the plane thinks its about to stall with the air speed indicators sliding towards zero. Yikes, I think I'll stick with something I have full control over.

Remember davdah that at jet altitudes, the temperature is so cold any water vapor is mostly small ice crystals so not a big problem. In a thunderstorm that could be different. Unlike low and slow like we fly at, you're in the weather all the time and ice is bad news.

Every jet engine has speed senors to determine the power output measured as EPR (Engine Pressure Ratio). Simply put, one sensor at the front of the engine and one at the rear. The pressure differential between one and the other is the engine EPR expressed in % (% Gas turbine in the case of a turboprop).

These sensors do have their own heat so as not to get iced up as what happened with that AirFlorida crash. Maybe these sensors malfunctioned on the Air France flight which could be why the plane was flying faster or slower than the pilots thought? However, there are 2 engines so the likelihood both failed at the same time would be quite rare. Back to system redundancy again.